Halfling Rogue19/Monk1 . question on feats.

[Ereshkigal]

I quoted the original Post Below and have updated the top of the post with my new build choices based on all the input I've gotten below. ( thanks for all the insight!, and please if you have more feedback, I'd love to hear it )

1Monk/3Paladin/16Rogue Build - Halfling - 28 point. I lose a feat and a 2vs Enchantment to Will saves, but the feat was dodge, and it gave me 1 ac, which is offset by the 1pt enhancemtn for pally 3 that gives me +1 pt to my AC. I could still take dodge instead of Skill Focus: UMD if I really wanted to. but this way i get Slippery mind at level 20.


Standard Feats

1 - TWF
3 - Weapon Finesse
6 - Toughness
9 - ITWF
12 - Two Weapon Defense
15 - GTWF
18 - Skill Focus: Use Magic Device

Monk Feats

1(2) - Combat Expertise

2(8) - Dodge

Rogue Feats

10(14) - Crippling Strike
13(17) - Improved Evasion
16(20) - Slippery Mind

Abilities:
ST/DE/CO/IN/WI/CH

06/17/12/13/13/14 - Starting Points
00/05/00/00/00/00 - Levels
00/05/00/00/00/01 - Enhancements
06/06/06/00/06/06 - Items
00/03/00/01/03/03 - Tomes

12/36/18/14/22/24 - Final

01/13/04/02/06/07 - bonii

Armor Class:

10 Base
01 (11) Halfling
02 (13) Paladin Aura
01 (14) Haste
01 (15) Parrying Weapon
01 (16) Dodge - Feat
01 (17) Two Weapon Defense
06 (23) Wisdom
13 (36) Dex
05 (41) Dodge - Combat Expertise
08 (49) Armored Bracers
01 (50) alchemical
03 (53) Natural - Barkskin
04 (57) Dodge - Icy Raiments
03 (60) Dodge - Chattering Ring
05 (65) Protection
04 (69) insight
04 (73) Shield Wand

73 AC?
72 AC

UMD:

19 Ranks
03 Feat
07 Charisma
05 Item
04 Greater Herosim
03 Rogue Skill Boost

42 UMD

02 Bard Buff

44 UMD

Saves:
FO/RE/WI

05/10/05 - Base 16 Rogue Levels
02/02/02 - Base 02 Monk Levels
03/01/01 - Base 03 Paladin Levels
01/01/01 - Halfling
07/07/07 - Charisma
02/02/02 - Paladin Aura
04/13/06 - Attribute Bonus
03/00/03 - Enhancements
05/05/05 - Resistance Item
02/02/02 - Luck
01/01/01 - Alchemy Ritual

35/44/35 - Sub Total (36 WI vs. Enchantments)

04/04/04 - Greater Heroism

39/48/39 - Total

Edit: Showing Corrections from Impaqt ( thank you )

Hi.

I'm coming back to ddo after a long hiatus. In the past I've played mostly squishies that survived through the use of extended displacements and stoneskins. I'm looking at making a melee character with decent saves and armor class. I've deced to go 1 Monk and 19 Rogue instead of the 1 Monk , 13 rogue, 6 ranger that is experiencing some popularity now as well. Here's what I have so far. Please let me know if I've made any errors with stacking etc. ( I feel like I have made an error with the AC. Perhaps the Deflection bonus should not be listed? -- please understand, I am not working from experience but from what I could gather from the forums. )



Ability Scores:
ST/DE/CO/IN/WI/CH

06/18/14/14/14/08 - Starting Points
00/05/00/00/00/00 - Levels
00/05/00/00/00/00 - Enhancements
00/06/06/00/06/06 - Items
02/02/02/00/02/02 - Tomes
02/00/02/00/00/00 - Rage Spell

10/36/24/14/22/16 - Final

00/02/-2/00/00/00 - Wind Stance

10/38/22/14/22/16 - Final after wind stance

00/14/06/02/06/03 - bonii


Saving Throws:
FO/RE/WI

06/11/06 - Base 19 Rogue Levels
02/02/02 - Base 01 Monk Levels
01/01/01 - Halfling
06/14/06 - Attribute Bonus (including wind stance )
03/00/03 - Enhancements
05/05/05 - Resistance Item
04/04/04 - Greater Heroism
02/02/02 - Luck

29/42/29 - Sub Total

Armor Class:
10 Base
01 (11) Halfling
06 (17) Wisdom
14 (31) Dex ( wind stance dex included )
05 (36) Dodge - Combat Expertise
08 (44) Armored Bracers
01 (45) alchemical
03 (48) Natural - Barkskin Potion
04 (52) Dodge - Icy Raiments
03 (55) Dodge - Chattering Ring
05 (60) Deflection (Protection item)
04 (64) insight
04 (68) Shield Wand
-2 (66) Penalty for Rage Potion

(combined deflection/protection into one item & added the penalty from rage potions as well as adding Shield per Impaqt's advice )

66 self-buffed AC? (have I made an error here?)

More is situationally available through Uncanny dodge, but as those aren't unlimited or constant I am not including them above.


Enhancements:


Enhancement: Halfling Dexterity I
Enhancement: Halfling Dexterity II
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning I
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning II
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning III
Enhancement: Halfling Guile I
Enhancement: Halfling Guile II
Enhancement: Halfling Guile III
Enhancement: Halfling Luck I (Fortitude)
Enhancement: Halfling Luck II (Fortitude)
Enhancement: Halfling Luck III (Fortitude)
Enhancement: Halfling Luck I (Will)
Enhancement: Halfling Luck II (Will)
Enhancement: Halfling Luck III (Will)
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabber I
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabber II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabber III
Enhancement: Disciple of Breezes
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Item Defense I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III

levels 17-20

Enhancement: Halfling Cunning IV
Enhancement: Halfling Guile IV
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning IV
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III
( will drop Rogue Item Defense I to free up the points )


Standard Feats

1 - TWF
3 - Weapon Finesse
6 - Toughness
9 - ITWF
12 - ??
15 - ??
18 - GTWF

Monk Feats

1 - Combat Expertise

---------------------------------------------

My question is what to put into the 12th and 15th level feats. I've heard that getting your saves above 30 is a good idea, now I don't know how literal to take this but as my will and fort saves are at 29 would the following make sense?

-- Taking Iron Will and Great Fortitude would bring my saves to

FO/RE/WI
31/42/31

-- Or... Taking Dodge and Two Weapon Defense would raise the Armor Class by two?

-- Or... Would all of the above feats simply be overkill and if so what would you suggest taking for those levels.



Thanks in advance for any wisdom you can share.

[Impaqt]

"Protection" and "Deflection" are the same bonus, they dont stack.

If your going to count Rage potion in stats, then you should count the -2 AC in your breakdown...

Do you really plan on using Kamas and Handwraps on this build? Thats the only way to stay in stance all the time.

Dont forget about Improved Uncanny Dodge for Saves and AC..

I would assume acrobat PrE as well.. another +4 Dex Clicky there.....

And Sheild CLicky's/Wands. +4 AC There too...

[Ereshkigal]

Thanks for the help, Impaqt. I made some corrections above based on what you've said.

I also put in the Enhancment choices I plan on making, which do not include any PrC at the moment.

I was planning on using handwraps and kamas, yes, but then I have no in-game experience with it either. Other than the "free haste" I suppose I'm not losing much to use other weapons though eh?

If you have any thoughts on my feats I'd love to hear them.

thanks
Ereshkigal

[Noctus]

I was planning on using handwraps and kamas, yes, but then I have no in-game experience with it either. Other than the "free haste" I suppose I'm not losing much to use other weapons though eh?

Kamas have very bad weapon stats. A Rapier for example deals the same damage, but crits thrice as often.

The much better weapon stats are not made up with the much smaller boni you get from staying in a monk stance.

[Littlemo]

I have recently completed a 9-6-1 Rogue-Ranger-Monk and I went with kamas so that I could get the windstance + the tempest speed bonuses.

After playing this toon for a little while I would agree with noctus - even greensteel Kamas (Radience, MinII, triple+) dont come close to rapiers when it comes to DPS. I dont regret my decision because the toon is alot of fun to play but if you are looking for a ton of DPS go Rapier and make a radience with your first greensteel blank. You will not be dissappointed.

mo

[Thanimal]

Thanks for the help, Impaqt. I made some corrections above based on what you've said.

I also put in the Enhancment choices I plan on making, which do not include any PrC at the moment.

I was planning on using handwraps and kamas, yes, but then I have no in-game experience with it either. Other than the "free haste" I suppose I'm not losing much to use other weapons though eh?

If you have any thoughts on my feats I'd love to hear them.

thanks
Ereshkigal

- I think this is a very good build that I'm suprised more people aren't doing.
- From my experience, I suggest to use handwraps at low levels, where the faster speed more than makes up for the lameness of the "weapon." But eventually you'll probably want to use the better weapons and give up the stance benefits (most of the time).
- I would take a long look at the Acrobat enhancement. Ignore the staff thing -- that's a distraction. Look at these benefits: 4 (maybe more with III) extra uses of Improved Uncanny Dodge. This *alone* is probably worth the entire line - 2 more minutes of a massive AC increase. But wait! There's more! Knockdown Immunity. Showtime mode for all sorts of goodness. 10% movement increase.

I won't go so far as to say Acrobat is a Must Have, but definitely give it a good look.

[Thanimal]

One more note: It turns out the incremental increase of the lowest level stance when already Hasted and using Rogue Haste Boost is almost negligible. The exact reasons why are very hairy (see cforce's attack speed thread http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172819), but a big reason to abandon the stances at higher levels is that when the chips are down it adds almost nothing: If you are Hasted and using Rogue Haste Boost IV, then the additional increase in DPS from the Lesser Wind Stance is less than 2%. That is trivially overcome by using better weapons.

[Delacroix21]

Kamas have very bad weapon stats. A Rapier for example deals the same damage, but crits thrice as often.

The much better weapon stats are not made up with the much smaller boni you get from staying in a monk stance.

This is true. When hasted in rank 1 wind stance you will attack at 27.5% as opposed to 25% with inferior weapons. Of a greater point is the horrible strength, which should be at least 10 base. Halflings allready get a carry penalty, and with a 8 strength (from +2 tome) and a +6 item you will be in allot of trouble if a caster lowers your strength.


Want huge saves and AC? (end game build, still strong without +3 tomes)
Roll a 32pt halfling rogue 16/paladin2/monk2.
Stats
Str 10 (+2 tome +6 item= 18)
Dex 16 (+2tome+3rogue+2halfling+6item+5levels+2radiance weapon=36+4acrobat 2=40)
Con 14 (+2tome+6item=22)
Int 12 (+2tome=14)
Wis 14 (+3tome+1monk+6item= 24)
Cha 14 (+3 tome+1pally+6item= 24)


Rogue feats= Crippling strike, Imp Evasion, Slippery Mind (your will save will be crazy high!)

Saves
Fort/Ref/Will
3/3/3 Monk
3/0/0 pally
5/10/5 rogue
7/7/7 charisma
1/1/1 halfling
1/1/1 paladin aura
5/5/5 resist item
2/2/2 head of good fortune (i prefer over bloodstone as most damage is sneak attack)
1/1/1 alchemy ritual
0/13/0 Dexterity (left out acrobat 2 boost)
6/0/0 Constitution
0/0/7 Wisdom
=
34/43/32
+ GH
=
38/47/36 Now thats a spicy meatball! Use Paladin saves boost +2 vs. beholders, though I doubt you will need it!


AC
10 base
1 dodge
1 halfling
1 paladin aura
7 wisdom
13 dex
4 icy rainment
1 alchemy
8 bracer
5 protection
3 chattering ring
4 insight
5 Combat Expertise (i always run with this on due to sneak attack damage)
= 63 Beholder AC

Shield wands, bark pots, Imp Uncanny dodge (you have allot as Acro 2), Acro 2 +4 dex boost, etc. will net you ALLOT of AC.


Feats
Dodge
TWF
ITWF
GTWF
WF
Imp Crit Slash (twin Radiance 2 Kukris over rapiers, +2dex & +4insight)
Tougness
CE
PA (for those sneak immune or when raid buffed as AC will be high enough to drop CE)


There you go! A powerful rogue build that may miss out on acrobat 3, but I DOUBT it will anywhere near as powerful to negate the benefit of the paladin or monk splash. This guy is a saves powerhouse with plenty of dps thrown in. Enjoy!


EDIT
Droping 2 rogue levels to go 14rog/3paladin/3monk is also great if you DO plan to use handwraps (at times). This will lose slippery mind (but will save should be high enough anyway), but gain +1 saves from pally aura enhancement to negate lose from rogue levels, and +1 pally aura AC. Fear immunity, +2 vs enchantments (from monk), Fists of light (for handwrap heals and buffing finishers), +5% movement (monk), +10% healing (monk). Its totally up to you whether to go 16/2/2 or 14/3/3. If you really plan on using handwraps more often (they rock vs undead skellies) then definately take 3 monk levels. Your sneak damage is still crazy high!

[Thanimal]

Sweet! Ro16/P2/M2 is my current favorite build, except I prefer to do it as a Drow mainly for 5 more points of Intimidate. With saves and AC that high, having Intimidate as an option rocks!

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=171456

But if you don't want Intimidate, Halfling is clearly better.

[Greydeath]

Droping 2 rogue levels to go 14rog/3paladin/3monk is also great if you DO plan to use handwraps (at times).

Rog17/Pal2/Monk1 and Rog16/Pal3/Monk1 are also worth considering.

[Hasteclicky]

Take your monk lvl at 16 and you can get GTWF at 15. I would strongly advise against starting with a 6 str.

[BlackSteel]

I'd stay away from the +saves feats as a rogue, especially when u're sitting at a 29 already. +2 to a single save isnt worth a precious feat, about the only class that can afford it would be a mostly pure fighter.

the highest will and fort dc's currently in the game are probably from the black abbott. Otherwise you're looking at the gnoll in the shroud or subterreine beholders. Neither of which are much of a problem when you're at 29.

[Ereshkigal]

I want to thank everyone for their feedback and insight.

After reading everything posted I think I will splash some pally levels.

I am not concerned with PrC with this build so not getting 18 levels of rogue won't matter to me. I do however want the option of getting 3 of the advanced rogue feats so 16 levels of rogue does very much matter to me.

It boils down to

2p/2m

or

3p/1m

I'm leaning towards the 3p/1m to be honest.

I would lose 1 pt of WISDOM from enhancements but I would gain +1 AC and +1 to saves as well as immunity to fear and disease as well as the possibility of 1 additional lay on hands.

The feat I was taking at M2 was dodge, which is offset by the Pally Enhancement that adds +1 AC. If I want to I can still take dodge at level 18 instead of Skill Focus UMD.

Am I missing something pertinant?

[Ereshkigal]

I'd stay away from the +saves feats as a rogue, especially when u're sitting at a 29 already. +2 to a single save isnt worth a precious feat, about the only class that can afford it would be a mostly pure fighter.

the highest will and fort dc's currently in the game are probably from the black abbott. Otherwise you're looking at the gnoll in the shroud or subterreine beholders. Neither of which are much of a problem when you're at 29.

This post is particularly interesting to me. I've never made it to the current cap, and I do not know from experience what saving throws numbers are effective. I see people pushing close to 40. I'm able to get saving throws in the very high 30's for both fort and will without using any feat slots. (by splashing at least 1 lvl of Monk and 2 levels of Pal ) I am, however am planning on using enhancement points for halfling luck. If in fact those will not be necessary then that will open up 12 AP's that I could use for something else.

At least AP's are reasonably respecc'able.

Again, thank everyone for their input, I wish some of this relevant information was actually in the wiki. ( I do like ddo.enterwiki but it is horribly out of date, though still more useful than the "compendium". ) Much of the info on the forums is skewed by opinion and sometimes even conflicts. I think this hurts ddo for new players. I have a strong background in PnP D&D and I have probably spent more time planning characters than playing them.

again, thanks,
Ereshkigal

[Ereshkigal]

Take your monk lvl at 16 and you can get GTWF at 15. I would strongly advise against starting with a 6 str.

Yea, I have started with a 6 strength and I can see why you would advise against it as I approach level 4 I can only imagine what lies in store as I continue to progress.

sadly I do not have 1750 favor unlocked, and I wasn't willing to put any other points into strength. If I had 4 more build points i'd probably put 3 or 4 of those into strength based on my experiences thus far.

[Delacroix21]

It boils down to

2p/2m

or

3p/1m

I'm leaning towards the 3p/1m to be honest.

I would lose 1 pt of WISDOM from enhancements but I would gain +1 AC and +1 to saves as well as immunity to fear and disease as well as the possibility of 1 additional lay on hands.

The feat I was taking at M2 was dodge, which is offset by the Pally Enhancement that adds +1 AC. If I want to I can still take dodge at level 18 instead of Skill Focus UMD.

Am I missing something pertinant?

Yes... The fear and disease immunity are of no use, as you will be "immune" to fear basically through your high will save. Also that 2nd monk level gives +1 to all saves. In addition you get the free feat for +1 dodge ac. The importance of this is if you ever have another (higher level) paladin in the party your ac will benefit. Lastly the +1 wis from monk 2 is useful, as well as the animal path of the monk (either go tortoise for hp or hound for extra to-hit when flanking).


Then again the option is available to go 14rog/3pal/3mnk which has allot of benefits as well, monk finishers being one of them and who wouldnt want an extra +10% healing? Really the only 2 rogue special feats that are "must haves" are imp evasion and crippling strike, the others arent really all that necessary.