Ability, Skill respecs, 32 point/drow unlocks.

[branmakmuffin]

Throwaway in the meaning that they are used, to then be replaced by an identical version of the character only in stronger (ie four more creation points).

If someone views his characters merely as tools to interact with a video game, I suppose.

With this favor deal, I know starting out that I won't be keeping that character. I could, but I know that if I were to play this game longterm, I would always know that she could be a 32 point build and right, wrong, or indifferent, it makes me not want to work on these characters when I was quite enjoying it.

Just knowing that the 32-point build option exists, and you can't have it for the particular character you're playing makes you upset? That attitude is so bizarre, I can't even begin to fathom it.

[Kylani]

"If you like repeating content, that's fine. As I stated, I play a game because I enjoy building my character. I like to feel it is the best it can be. I'm very patient, but no, I don't find it fun to repeat content solely for the sake of paying Turbine money longer because they don't have fresh content to keep players otherwise. I like new challenges."

That does not really go along with any notion he does not mind the grind. The term, speaking out of both sides of the mouth comes to mind.

I don't understand why you feel this is speaking out both sides of my mouth. I am a female btw, not a he.

I do not mind doing things to improve my character. I enjoy building the character. If it is solely grinding, no enjoyment, then no I don't, but generally grinding has been a part of every game that I have played.

There is a difference between grinding just to get to restart the game on another character, than in grinding to improve the character you are playing.

I understand that you don't feel this way, and I also get that you don't believe anyone should feel differently than you do. Since I've already decided to move on, I won't waste any more effort attempting to explain. Enjoy your game.

[branmakmuffin]

I'd rather take things at my own pace and get the most enjoyment out of the character I'm playing, than take the most logical route and not enjoy the journey.

You're right about this being the end of this particular line of discussion, because we (and perhaps the "we" includes Quanefel) will never understand each other on this. If the mere knowledge of 32-point builds prevents you from enjoying the journey, all I can say to you is what you said to Quanefel: "Enjoy your game."

[Kazorn]

lets think in a hypothetical situation:

when you hit 2750 favor you ll unlock an extra feat in a new char

fair for you guys?

after leveling 3 chars till 16!

i dont think its fair

[Borror0]

If someone views his characters merely as tools to interact with a video game, I suppose.

You say that as if it was a somewhat inferior position than yours.

[Thrudh]

Since you're somewhat in the same boat as me, I can try to suggest making a drow character, which is equivalent to a 32 point build, except that 4 points you cannot decide how to spend (dex, int, or cha, whichever 2 aren't primary for you), and it only needs 400 favor, which is considerably easier to get (about level 7, I've heard).

I've burned up most of the harbor, except cartoman's quest chain (14 favor total missing) and the kobald assault (another 6 favor) and had over 210-230 of the favor before moving to marketplace, and, though still annoying, it's a lot easier than going for 1750.

Just figure I'd throw that out there.

That's a good suggestion... You won't feel the need to reroll a drow character, because they will be just as powerful as any other 32 point character. Just pick a class that uses INT, DEX, or CHA as primary stats (Rogue, Bard, Wizard, Sorc).

Also, pure classes will not feel gimped at all as 28-point characters. My 28-point dwarven cleric rocks... Only complicated Multi-class characters need 32 points (and it's difficult to build those well until you've played the game a lot anyway)

[bobbryan2]

Wow... this thread was running in circles around pointless semantics... and THEN the muffin showed up.

I'm impressed the quality of the thread went down further with all that nonsense about how you shouldn't play DDO if you think you wasted your time after deleting a character.

Most everyone knows it's hogwash, and why... but Muffin keeps on saying it in every thread where someone says the word 'waste'.

[branmakmuffin]

You say that as if it was a somewhat inferior position than yours.

In terms of playability of content, that attitude seems to go along with "get to cap as quickly as possible, doing only the pre-approved power-leveling quests, then raid, raid, raid, then come onto the forums and complain about lack of content."

I still have plenty of content I have never played and plan to actually play. If the former way (and you can remove my negative characterizations of that playstyle) is the way someone plays, fine for them, but if they really like to play DDO, why wouldn't they want to play in a way which maximizes the time span over which they can play and enjoy the game, rather than burning themselves out on the same stuff over and over and over again over a relatively short time span?

Most everyone knows it's hogwash, and why... but Muffin keeps on saying it in every thread where someone says the word 'waste'.

What everyone knows is hogwash is when someone says he or she "wasted" his or her time playing a game. If one views it as time wasted, why play? It's supposed to be fun.

[Thrudh]

I've played ffxi I guess four years now with ONE character. I am very invested in her. A hume is not the best for all jobs, but I've levelled every job on her and thoroughly enjoyed it. I don't feel that anything that I've done on her was wasted effort, and I still enjoy playing her, probably always will. I am invested in her and what I've accomplished with her. If SE adds a new super race that is better than female hume, I wouldn't care. I'd still play her. But if they added a super version of the female hume, I'd be very upset. I most definitely would NOT reroll a super hume and redo all that I've done, and I can't imagine wanting to keep playing her knowing she could be all that she is and more.

I understand all people aren't this way (probably most aren't), but I enjoy a game when I like my character and feel like I'm building her.

With this favor deal, I know starting out that I won't be keeping that character. I could, but I know that if I were to play this game longterm, I would always know that she could be a 32 point build and right, wrong, or indifferent, it makes me not want to work on these characters when I was quite enjoying it.

I'm not sure what to tell you... All I know is, my original 28 point character is still going strong... because I'm always building him... He's not inferior IN ANY IMPORTANT WAY... This is important...

His primary stats are just as strong as a 32-point character... The difference between 28 and 32 is in the secondary stats, and for a pure class, those really don't matter... We're talking 16 more hps (out of 300), we're talking 1 more skill point per level, or 1 more DV...

None of those make me feel like my character is inferior... He does as well at his primary functions as all the 32 point clerics... The differences really are very minor...

Now... when you're talking about multi-class characters, it's different, because they may have multiple (3-4) primary stats instead of 1-2 like a pure class. THAT is where you notice the difference...

Play a 28-point pure wizard or pure cleric to 1750... and you'll never feel like you have to reroll the character...

Drow is another one you won't have to reroll... My first character is a 28 point cleric... still going strong (actually 15/1 cleric/paladin). My second character, after I unlocked drow, was a 13/3 Bard/Rogue... You can play around with MC characters with a drow, and never worry about wanting to reroll them either.

A wizard/rogue drow has very good synergies, and you will not be able to improve it with a 32 point character down the line...

[bobbryan2]

What everyone knows is hogwash is when someone says he or she "wasted" his or her time playing a game. If one views it as time wasted, why play? It's supposed to be fun.

I'm not gonna fall for that! You're not gonna get me to explain that to you yet again. I have learned, sir.

[branmakmuffin]

lets think in a hypothetical situation:

when you hit 2750 favor you ll unlock an extra feat in a new char

fair for you guys?

after leveling 3 chars till 16!

i dont think its fair

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic. If you're not, why is it unfair? It's just another reward for playing a lot, i.e., a marketing gimmick. Was the preview purchase (or whatever it was called) reward item unfair? I don't think so. Edit: The only thing along these lines to which I am opposed are things which increase the power of the character and are obtainable in exchange for real money (e.g., micro-transactions).

I'm not gonna fall for that! You're not gonna get me to explain that to you yet again. I have learned, sir.

I have an awesome bridge in Brooklyn for sale if you're interested, then.

[bobbryan2]

I have an awesome bridge in Brooklyn for sale if you're interested, then.

Question: Did you think that made sense?

[branmakmuffin]

Question: Did you think that made sense?

Of course it makes sense. It's a play on your comment that you have learned. It jokingly implying that while you may have learned to be wary in one area, you haven't in another.

[Quanefel]

lets think in a hypothetical situation:

when you hit 2750 favor you ll unlock an extra feat in a new char

fair for you guys?

after leveling 3 chars till 16!

i dont think its fair

It would be fair to all those who put the effort into earning it.

[bobbryan2]

Of course it makes sense. It's a play on your comment that you have learned. It jokingly implying that while you may have learned to be wary in one area, you haven't in another.

That is a stretch, sir.

[Kistilan]

Of course it makes sense. It's a play on your comment that you have learned. It jokingly implying that while you may have learned to be wary in one area, you haven't in another.

/offers muffins

WTG Bran!

[Thrudh]

lets think in a hypothetical situation:

when you hit 2750 favor you ll unlock an extra feat in a new char

fair for you guys?

after leveling 3 chars till 16!

i dont think its fair

This is a good point... I would be quite upset if something like this happened... since I have 7 capped characters at this time..

[Kylani]

I'm not sure what to tell you... All I know is, my original 28 point character is still going strong... because I'm always building him... He's not inferior IN ANY IMPORTANT WAY... This is important...

His primary stats are just as strong as a 32-point character... The difference between 28 and 32 is in the secondary stats, and for a pure class, those really don't matter... We're talking 16 more hps (out of 300), we're talking 1 more skill point per level, or 1 more DV...

None of those make me feel like my character is inferior... He does as well at his primary functions as all the 32 point clerics... The differences really are very minor...

Now... when you're talking about multi-class characters, it's different, because they may have multiple (3-4) primary stats instead of 1-2 like a pure class. THAT is where you notice the difference...

Play a 28-point pure wizard or pure cleric to 1750... and you'll never feel like you have to reroll the character...

Drow is another one you won't have to reroll... My first character is a 28 point cleric... still going strong (actually 15/1 cleric/paladin). My second character, after I unlocked drow, was a 13/3 Bard/Rogue... You can play around with MC characters with a drow, and never worry about wanting to reroll them either.

A wizard/rogue drow has very good synergies, and you will not be able to improve it with a 32 point character down the line...

Thank you very much.

When I read through the builds, it sounded as if the 32 point builds were far superior. I even read a post that suggested creating a cleric just to get the favor, before building characters.

For soloing, I don't mind stats as much. I'll wear a better looking piece of armor over better stat armor just because I like the looks of it. In grouping, I'm in it for my enjoyment, but I don't like to feel like I'm leeching or not doing my best because it affects others.

I enjoy teamwork alot. It's the main draw I have to DDO. I don't like zerging, I enjoy strategy, working together, laughing when you fail, etc. Our biggest wipes are some of my fondest memories. If I can still get groups in the game without feeling like I'm hurting the group by not rerolling, it makes a difference. It seems like I would be better if I could get those extra points, and I guess that's a mental hurdle I'd have to overcome. I'm used to working to get good gear, abilities, and such. I'm not used to restarting a character from scratch to be better. That still seems intrinsically wrong in a game to me.

We've already hit instances where one str, int, dex makes the difference between getting to do all of the dungeon vs. part of it. I like to do all the content, so I thought missing out because I wouldn't reroll would be frustrating for me and the group.

Your post makes me feel much better about it though. Thanks!

[Quanefel]

Are +1,2 and +3 tomes going to be demanded handed out as well to make everyone's character equal with everyone else? When +4's and +5's come out, those as well?

If there is an issue with 4 point difference in 28 to 32, tomes are more unequal than 1750 favor could ever be. Seeing as tomes can be added to every stat. That is a big gap between those who have none or very little tomes eaten.

If getting a +3 tome on each stat is alot more difficult than earning 1750 is, will tomes be next on the chopping block in this misguided effort to make everyone be "equal" with all other characters as well?

Do tomes by virtue of being harder to aquire as well, force new players to quit? Knowing that it will take a great deal of time and effort to aquire?

Is all those players out there that still have their 28 point builds and more than likely have +3 tomes for virtually every stat, are they gimped compared to a 32 point builds who is not as fortunate to have that many if any tomes at all? Should we demand to have their tomes to make everyone on par with them? When will it end?

[Borror0]

[...] if they really like to play DDO, why wouldn't they want to play in a way which maximizes the time span over which they can play and enjoy the game, rather than burning themselves out on the same stuff over and over and over again over a relatively short time span?

It's just the way our brain works.

Ever thought the expression PvE? Player versus environment. While you say that DDO is not a competitive game, that can only be true about yourself. It's not a general truth. Many play games to beat them, to defeat the environment. It's not an inferior way to play a game, it's just different.

What everyone knows is hogwash is when someone says he or she "wasted" his or her time playing a game.

Only true if you use a precise definition of wasted, which she didn't use. Remember that gamers tend to use hyperbolic expressions.

The time is not wasted in the sense that she did not enjoy play the game, but rather that she feels that the time she spent into the character was "all for nothing". While it may not be the case for you, many players play to improve their character. It's what is fun to them, and having to delete a character creates an unpleasant feeling that can indeed be summarized by "the feeling to have wasted time".

Probably it sounds strange and odd to you, but at least acknowledge that is the way some people's brain is wired and that no argument can change that.

However, since there are people like that, it is in the interest of a profit-driven company like Turbine to adapt their design to that reality.