Ability, Skill respecs, 32 point/drow unlocks.

[branmakmuffin]

I just want to debate this point.

Some people don't mind starting over and repeating content. To them, doing the same thing in a different way is fun, which is what category I place you in, Bran.

Rather I am (more or less) content to accept a game I choose to play in the state it's in (assuming I have no control over its state).

out achievement, goals, and conquests. Moving backwards or starting over to these people is not fun. I would place Kylani in that group.

Rather I would say there are some people who cannot turn off their competitive urges for something as inconsequential as a game.

But if it's not fun, then indeed, yes, he should stop doing it.

[Azdraugnor]

If you consider the time you've spent playing a game "wasted," it's time to do something else with your free time.

It's not that he hates playing the game, it's the fact that a character that he'll either have to delete a character he's put so much time in to, or swallow the fact that his character will always be weaker than he could be.

And the fact that Turbine could easily make it a non-issue makes it sting even more.

I don't understand this reasoning. You have to get to 1750 favor with a 28-point character (or, yes, a Drow). How could you possibly get a character to high enough level for 1750 favor if the character is worthless? A 28-point character is worth less than its 32-point equivalent, but to say it's worthless is needless hyperbole.

He didn't say "powerless", or "helpless", he said worthless. To him, a character who is weaker is a character not worth playing. It makes all the work spent leveling up that character feel like a waste.

This is based on the untenable notion that 32-point characters are so vastly uber compared to 28-point characters that it must like comparing a supernova to a smoldering campfire. No one but you (and the people you choose to tell) know your character is 28-point.

I actually agree with you here (somewhat), but for many players like to eke out every last bit of power from their characters. Knowing that his build is inherently inferior chafes at him every time every time he plays.

To me, this sounds insanely childish.

Personally, I consider it unreasonable that characters of the same class, race, and level, having taken the same feats, skills, and enhancements, using the same gear, and with the same buffs, can be unequal in terms of power through no fault of the weaker player.

[Kylani]

I just want to debate this point.

Some people don't mind starting over and repeating content. To them, doing the same thing in a different way is fun, which is what category I place you in, Bran.

Others, though, have fun by progressing and moving forward. To them, the game is about achievement, goals, and conquests. Moving backwards or starting over to these people is not fun. I would place Kylani in that group.

Thank you. I do like to progress forward. We've already created several types of characters and run them through the same beginning quests quite a bit (to the point where we're just glad to get the characters out of the starter areas).

The thought of enjoying these characters only to find out we have to restart at 1750 is a turn off to me.

It doesn't have to be a turn off to everyone, but yes, it is to me.

[OnyxBMW]

Rather I am (more or less) content to accept a game I choose to play in the state it's in (assuming I have no control over its state).


Rather I would say there are some people who cannot turn off their competitive urges for something as inconsequential as a game.

But if it's not fun, then indeed, yes, he should stop doing it.

But, some people are passionate about what they play, and try to progress it, especially for something like an MMO, something you devote a lot of time and money into, in the general direction of something better and more enjoyable.

Your second point is inconsequential, as games take on many forms, and competition is, in fact, one of the more popular forms of gaming.

And, your third point is rather ignorant. Why am I playing the game, despite the one thing I am most against in the game? Because I consider certain parts fun enough. I'm absolutely loving the dungeon experience, even if I'm mostly just playing it with some close friends I managed to get to tag along with me.

Game's aren't black and white. They're not enjoyed, or not. They're, all of them, a love/hate relationship where you usually have more enjoyment than dissatisfaction. But, the main point of all of this is, I made this thread in an effort to remove one point of dissatisfaction from the game, one of the larger ones, so people don't use it as a negative point against the game.

[Borror0]

Bran, it's simply a different way to look at the game than yours.

If you consider the time you've spent playing a game "wasted," it's time to do something else with your free time.

To many, to feeling of improving a character is part of the fun.

The feeling of starting over feels like all the time you've put in that character was wasted. Yes, he/she enjoyed playing the character and the game, but the fact that the character is imperfect gives the impression that the player has invested time in a worthless character and thus wasted his/her time.

Perhaps that does not seem rational to you, but it does not need to. Many people feel that way, and therefore that is a problem for the DDO team.

How could you possibly get a character to high enough level for 1750 favor if the character is worthless?

In this case, the definition of worthless is subjective.

If I was to try to define your two definition, it would probably look like this.
Your definition: A worthless character is a character that cannot achieve the task he was made for (ie completing quests).
Kylani's definition: A worthless character is a character that could be improved by rerolling, as it is less than perfect.

This is based on the untenable notion that 32-point characters are so vastly uber compared to 28-point characters that it must like comparing a supernova to a smoldering campfire. No one but you (and the people you choose to tell) know your character is 28-point.

While four points is not much of a difference to you, it may mean a lot to someone else.

Matter of perspective.

[Quanefel]

Quoted for proof that you don't read my posts. I already addressed that. Look back in previous posts.

Answers like that give me the impression that you'd be very, very good at DODGEball.

[Alavatar]

Rather I would say there are some people who cannot turn off their competitive urges for something as inconsequential as a game.

Most games are competitive by their definition. Any game that declares someone as a winner is inherently competitive. Whether or not the players choose to be competitive is irrelevent in those situations because the players do not have to want to win, but there will be a winner none-the-less.

And no one has stated so far (although you have inferred) that Kylani is competitive. For all we know, Kylani could be perfectly content moving at a slow pace and taking time to enjoy the game. As long as that movement is going forward. You do not have to be competitive to set goals and want progress.

[Kylani]

If you consider the time you've spent playing a game "wasted," it's time to do something else with your free time.


I don't understand this reasoning. You have to get to 1750 favor with a 28-point character (or, yes, a Drow). How could you possibly get a character to high enough level for 1750 favor if the character is worthless? A 28-point character is worth less than its 32-point equivalent, but to say it's worthless is needless hyperbole.


This is based on the untenable notion that 32-point characters are so vastly uber compared to 28-point characters that it must like comparing a supernova to a smoldering campfire. No one but you (and the people you choose to tell) know your character is 28-point.


To me, this sounds insanely childish.

It may be childish to you. To me, it's silly to choose to play a game that now feels like it is a waste of my time. To me, it's childish to call someone who realizes it is not the game for them of being childish for realizing it. "Suck it up and play or you're a child?" Very adult. I play for fun, not because you think I should be fine with this aspect of the game.

Every time you've run a dungeon, you lose some of the initial fun of exploration, wondering what will happen, will you be prepared. Trying it on harder settings, with different job combos, different groups is engaging and fun. I personally enjoy changing jobs and seeing what each one can do, trying different tactics, etc. I've rerolled characters numerous times as it is without realizing that these characters won't matter later anyway.

If I can get a 32 point build, it makes more sense to stick with a character, get it to 1750, then start really playing the game like I want to. I'm sorry, while I like the game, I don't like it enough to grind 1750 before I can relax and build a character I can truly invest in. I want to enjoy the adventures with my character, not build a character JUST to get to build another character where the dungeons will all be old hat. To me, a game is an adventure that I like to enjoy from level one.

If you like repeating content, that's fine. As I stated, I play a game because I enjoy building my character. I like to feel it is the best it can be. I'm very patient, but no, I don't find it fun to repeat content solely for the sake of paying Turbine money longer because they don't have fresh content to keep players otherwise. I like new challenges.

[OnyxBMW]

It may be childish to you. To me, it's silly to choose to play a game that now feels like it is a waste of my time. To me, it's childish to call someone who realizes it is not the game for them of being childish for realizing it. "Suck it up and play or you're a child?" Very adult. I play for fun, not because you think I should be fine with this aspect of the game.

Every time you've run a dungeon, you lose some of the initial fun of exploration, wondering what will happen, will you be prepared. Trying it on harder settings, with different job combos, different groups is engaging and fun. I personally enjoy changing jobs and seeing what each one can do, trying different tactics, etc. I've rerolled characters numerous times as it is without realizing that these characters won't matter later anyway.

If I can get a 32 point build, it makes more sense to stick with a character, get it to 1750, then start really playing the game like I want to. I'm sorry, while I like the game, I don't like it enough to grind 1750 before I can relax and build a character I can truly invest in. I want to enjoy the adventures with my character, not build a character JUST to get to build another character where the dungeons will all be old hat. To me, a game is an adventure that I like to enjoy from level one.

If you like repeating content, that's fine. As I stated, I play a game because I enjoy building my character. I like to feel it is the best it can be. I'm very patient, but no, I don't find it fun to repeat content solely for the sake of paying Turbine money longer because they don't have fresh content to keep players otherwise. I like new challenges.

Since you're somewhat in the same boat as me, I can try to suggest making a drow character, which is equivalent to a 32 point build, except that 4 points you cannot decide how to spend (dex, int, or cha, whichever 2 aren't primary for you), and it only needs 400 favor, which is considerably easier to get (about level 7, I've heard).

I've burned up most of the harbor, except cartoman's quest chain (14 favor total missing) and the kobald assault (another 6 favor) and had over 210-230 of the favor before moving to marketplace, and, though still annoying, it's a lot easier than going for 1750.

Just figure I'd throw that out there.

[Azdraugnor]

Since you're somewhat in the same boat as me, I can try to suggest making a drow character, which is equivalent to a 32 point build, except that 4 points you cannot decide how to spend (dex, int, or cha, whichever 2 aren't primary for you), and it only needs 400 favor, which is considerably easier to get (about level 7, I've heard).

Personally, I hit 400 favor at about level five. Granted, I did do nearly all of the harbor quests and a few marketplace quests on elite.

[OnyxBMW]

Personally, I hit 400 favor at about level five. Granted, I did do nearly all of the harbor quests and a few marketplace quests on elite.

I've done every quest so far on elite, except the 2 I mentioned (and solo quests, which can only be done on solo) and, yeah, I'm rank 22. Seems to be progressing fast. Ah well.

Should probably try to find level 4/5/6/ quests to do since they give more favor.

[Quanefel]

It may be childish to you. To me, it's silly to choose to play a game that now feels like it is a waste of my time. To me, it's childish to call someone who realizes it is not the game for them of being childish for realizing it. "Suck it up and play or you're a child?" Very adult. I play for fun, not because you think I should be fine with this aspect of the game.

Every time you've run a dungeon, you lose some of the initial fun of exploration, wondering what will happen, will you be prepared. Trying it on harder settings, with different job combos, different groups is engaging and fun. I personally enjoy changing jobs and seeing what each one can do, trying different tactics, etc. I've rerolled characters numerous times as it is without realizing that these characters won't matter later anyway.

If I can get a 32 point build, it makes more sense to stick with a character, get it to 1750, then start really playing the game like I want to. I'm sorry, while I like the game, I don't like it enough to grind 1750 before I can relax and build a character I can truly invest in. I want to enjoy the adventures with my character, not build a character JUST to get to build another character where the dungeons will all be old hat. To me, a game is an adventure that I like to enjoy from level one.

If you like repeating content, that's fine. As I stated, I play a game because I enjoy building my character. I like to feel it is the best it can be. I'm very patient, but no, I don't find it fun to repeat content solely for the sake of paying Turbine money longer because they don't have fresh content to keep players otherwise. I like new challenges.

Grind is designed into MMO's, someone should have told you before signing up to one.

Leveling up will require some quests being repeated, there are raids that require you to grind to get flagged repeatedly, there are other favor rewards you will have to grind to get and more than one character slot that you will have to repeat the same quests in order to level up new characters. So if you are looking for fresh content all the time or not repeating anything, DDO might not be for you.

[OnyxBMW]

Grind is designed into MMO's, someone should have told you before signing up to one.

Leveling up will require some quests being repeated, there are raids that require you to grind to get flagged repeatedly, there are other favor rewards you will have to grind to get and more than one character slot that you will have to repeat the same quests in order to level up new characters. So if you are looking for fresh content all the time or not repeating anything, DDO might not be for you.

Yes. But there is a difference between a good grind, and a bad one. The favor system, as it is currently set up, is a bad grind. It can be turned into a good grind, but it currently is not as such.

[Borror0]

Grind is designed into MMO's, someone should have told you before signing up to one.

Leveling up will require some quests being repeated, there are raids that require you to grind to get flagged repeatedly, there are other favor rewards you will have to grind to get and more than one character slot that you will have to repeat the same quests in order to level up new characters. So if you are looking for fresh content all the time or not repeating anything, DDO might not be for you.

Kylani clearly stated that he/she didn't mind the favor grind, or the job grind in FFXI, but that he/she disike the concept of throwaway characters.

[branmakmuffin]

If I can get a 32 point build, it makes more sense to stick with a character, get it to 1750, then start really playing the game like I want to. I'm sorry, while I like the game, I don't like it enough to grind 1750 before I can relax and build a character I can truly invest in. I want to enjoy the adventures with my character, not build a character JUST to get to build another character where the dungeons will all be old hat. To me, a game is an adventure that I like to enjoy from level one.

And knowing that 32-points exist but are at the moment unavailable to you lessens your enjoyment of the game? How does that work, exactly? 32-point builds were put in as a reward to encourage people to play a lot, and to keep playing a lot. The game was created for and balanced for 28-point characters.

If you like repeating content, that's fine. As I stated, I play a game because I enjoy building my character. I like to feel it is the best it can be.

This is a computer game, not the U.S. Army.

I like new challenges.

You like challenges, yet you want your character to be more powerful (even if only slightly), thereby reducing the challenge?

The reason it all sounds childish is because it smacks of little Johnny crying to mommy because little Jimmy got a slightly larger piece of birthday cake.

Kylani clearly stated that he/she didn't mind the favor grind, or the job grind in FFXI, but that he/she disike the concept of throwaway characters.

If 28-point characters are throwaway characters, then so are characters who have not used +3 tomes on every stat and characters who don't have every piece of loot the players wants, or 4.2 million platinum. 32-point builds are a reward for putting in lots of playing hours, just as having lots of loot and lots of platinum are.

Most games are competitive by their definition. Any game that declares someone as a winner is inherently competitive.

Excellent. Ergo DDO is not a competitive game.

[Quanefel]

Kylani clearly stated that he/she didn't mind the favor grind, or the job grind in FFXI, but that he/she disike the concept of throwaway characters.

"If you like repeating content, that's fine. As I stated, I play a game because I enjoy building my character. I like to feel it is the best it can be. I'm very patient, but no, I don't find it fun to repeat content solely for the sake of paying Turbine money longer because they don't have fresh content to keep players otherwise. I like new challenges."

That does not really go along with any notion he does not mind the grind. The term, speaking out of both sides of the mouth comes to mind.

[Kistilan]

Answers like that give me the impression that you'd be very, very good at DODGEball.

If you can dodge an internet forum question, you can dodge anything mate! Go for the Gold -- Olympic Gold!

[Quanefel]

Yes. But there is a difference between a good grind, and a bad one. The favor system, as it is currently set up, is a bad grind. It can be turned into a good grind, but it currently is not as such.

I know, there good grind and bad grind. Good if you have no issue doing the grind, bad if you feel entitled to the prize but not the effort of the actual grind for it.

[Kylani]

Thanks for all the helpful comments. I appreciate it.

I feel like I've given the impression I'm some kind of super competitive person. I'm really not.

I've played ffxi I guess four years now with ONE character. I am very invested in her. A hume is not the best for all jobs, but I've levelled every job on her and thoroughly enjoyed it. I don't feel that anything that I've done on her was wasted effort, and I still enjoy playing her, probably always will. I am invested in her and what I've accomplished with her. If SE adds a new super race that is better than female hume, I wouldn't care. I'd still play her. But if they added a super version of the female hume, I'd be very upset. I most definitely would NOT reroll a super hume and redo all that I've done, and I can't imagine wanting to keep playing her knowing she could be all that she is and more.

I understand all people aren't this way (probably most aren't), but I enjoy a game when I like my character and feel like I'm building her.

With this favor deal, I know starting out that I won't be keeping that character. I could, but I know that if I were to play this game longterm, I would always know that she could be a 32 point build and right, wrong, or indifferent, it makes me not want to work on these characters when I was quite enjoying it.

As far as drow goes, I was enjoying working on the favor to unlock it more than I was looking forward to Drow. We've tried numerous builds that are superior to what we have now, but I have to enjoy my character (aka, WF rogue/wiz may rule skillwise/soloability-wise, but hume rogue/wiz is what I like). I'd rather take things at my own pace and get the most enjoyment out of the character I'm playing, than take the most logical route and not enjoy the journey.

[Borror0]

If 28-point characters are throwaway characters, then so are characters who have not used +3 tomes on every stat and characters who don't have every piece of loot the players wants, or 4.2 million platinum. 32-point builds are a reward for putting in lots of playing hours, just as having lots of loot and lots of platinum are.

Throwaway in the meaning that they are used, to then be replaced by an identical version of the character only in stronger (ie four more creation points).