Ability, Skill respecs, 32 point/drow unlocks.

[Quanefel]

Hopefully it will involve instant feat, enhancement, skill and ability respec with no timer and balanced gp cost on one hand.

On the other, it will involve a more complex class respec (with long timer, etc.).

No timer? Getting a bit greedy with it aren't we?

[Borror0]

No timer? Getting a bit greedy with it aren't we?

Nope. It's a balance issue for tanks and crowd-control types.

[Quanefel]

Nope. It's a balance issue for tanks and crowd-control types.

So unlike feat, spell and enchantment respecs individually that only effect one aspect of our characters that each have a timer on them, a type of full respec would be balanced by not having any timer at all? At will, instant near remake of our characters. That...is balanced to you?

If you seperate those from a class respec, how are those not going to be effected when a class is respecced fully? Aren't feats, spells, enchantments, skills all tied into our classes and levels?

Is the feat respec 3 day timer unbalanced and needs to be made at will also?

Is the spell respec 3 day timer unbalanced and needs to be made at will also?

Is the enchantement respec 3 day timer unbalanced and needs to be made at will too?

Why do tanks, crowd control types or anyone "need" to respec out at will with no timer attached to the respec UNLIKE all the other, small and individual respecs we have now?

[Borror0]

So unlike feat, spell and enchantment respecs individually that only effect one aspect of our characters that each have a timer on them, a type of full respec would be balanced by not having any timer at all? At will, instant near remake of our characters. That...is balanced to you?

I thought it was clear but I will list it:

• Change enhancement respec to have no timer but slightly increase the cost
• Change the feat respec to have no timer, remove the dragonshard cost and lower the cost
• Add a skill respec without any timer and fix an acceptable cost
• Add an ability respec without a timer and fix an acceptable cost
• Add a class respec with a longer timer and limits to avoid drastic change of class

Why do tanks, crowd control types or anyone "need" to respec out at will with no timer attached to the respec UNLIKE all the other, small and individual respecs we have now?

It's a matter of balancing the ease of finding groups.

If a DPS character start a raid group, his LFM would read:

Need 1-3 healer, 1 bard, 0-2 caster, 0-1 tank and 5-9 DPS

DPS characters are what are most needed in a group. Far more than any other type, and to balance this allowing other character to respec into DPS types is a balance issue. The imbalance is the greatest for tanks as the advantages of bringing a second intimitank into a group are null. The group would have been better with a DPS type.

Heck, in some quests, you would be better with no tank at all and bring more DPS instead. Bringing a tank type will increase your completion time.

By being able to adapt to a group's need instantly, you address the imbalance.

[shores11]

Ability point respec will never happen (thougth I like the idea). The 1750 32 point builds were put into the game to keep people playing. If you have to rebuild a character with 32 points then you must also rerun the quests. If you are allowed to "rebuy" ability points after you hit 1750, then you likely wouldn't rerun the quests. From a buisness point of view, keeping you "grinding" or replaying old quests or building new toons make sense because you must then put the time in. If you're still playing old quests and/or building new toons you're likely to re up when your sub runs out (not to mention the dev time needed to build new quests).

/signed

The way the favor system is designed whether you personally like it or not (I like the way it is) is really good for the longevity of the game. A lot of WoW jumpers that come to DDO and expect everything at a push of a button like it was on WoW or to be able to stand in one spot and level up by killing over and over and over and over the same monster. Well, welcome to DDO the a game should be played.

[JakLee7]

WELL; I believe that we should shut off 32 pt builds - from now on you get no further 32 pt builds, that would correct the original poster's unhappiness with the system
It would also stop people from having to feel inferior to new builds that are 32 pts.

[Azdraugnor]

WELL; I believe that we should shut off 32 pt builds - from now on you get no further 32 pt builds, that would correct the original poster's unhappiness with the system
It would also stop people from having to feel inferior to new builds that are 32 pts.

This would make old characters inherently better. I hope you're being sarcastic.

[Quanefel]

I thought it was clear but I will list it:

• Change enhancement respec to have no timer but increase the cost
• Change the feat respec to have no timer and remove the dragonshard cost
• Add a skill respec without any timer and fix an acceptable cost
• Add an ability respec without a timer and fix an acceptable cost
• Add a class respec with a longer timer and limits to avoid drastic change of class

It's a matter of balancing the ease of finding groups.

If a DPS character start a raid group, his LFM would read:

Need 1-3 healer, 1 bard, 0-2 caster, 0-1 tank and 5-9 DPS

DPS characters are what are most needed in a group. Far more than any other type, and to balance this allowing other character to respec into DPS types is a balance issue. The imbalance is the greatest for tanks as the advantages of bringing a second intimitank into a group are null. The group would have been better with a DPS type.

Heck, in some quests, you would be better with no tank at all and bring more DPS instead. Bringing a tank type will increase your completion time.

So basically you want DDO to be so far removed from resembling D&D as much as possible. Respeccing vitually anything at will, really? You do not like D&D that much, do you?

Balancing finding groups? What the f*** are you talking about? Grouping is not tied to respeccing every aspect of our characters. Respec at will has jack to do with grouping. If someone is not a DPS character, they should make one. You are going off in left field with this one.

[Borror0]

So basically you want DDO to be so far removed from resembling D&D as much as possible.

Explain why this "far from D&D" and why this is a bad thing.

Grouping is not tied to respeccing every aspect of our characters.

If you can respec your character's feats, enhancements, ability scores and skills as needed, then it becomes easier for non-stackable builds to find a group.

Being able to find groups is important because not finding groups negatively affect the gaming experience.

[shores11]

I thought it was clear but I will list it:

• Change enhancement respec to have no timer but slightly increase the cost
• Change the feat respec to have no timer, remove the dragonshard cost and lower the cost
• Add a skill respec without any timer and fix an acceptable cost
• Add an ability respec without a timer and fix an acceptable cost
• Add a class respec with a longer timer and limits to avoid drastic change of class

It's a matter of balancing the ease of finding groups.

If a DPS character start a raid group, his LFM would read:

Need 1-3 healer, 1 bard, 0-2 caster, 0-1 tank and 5-9 DPS

DPS characters are what are most needed in a group. Far more than any other type, and to balance this allowing other character to respec into DPS types is a balance issue. The imbalance is the greatest for tanks as the advantages of bringing a second intimitank into a group are null. The group would have been better with a DPS type.

Heck, in some quests, you would be better with no tank at all and bring more DPS instead. Bringing a tank type will increase your completion time.

By being able to adapt to a group's need instantly, you address the imbalance.

/not signed

This is not a good idea. I am thinking it should be a little more difficult to change some of the current respecs much less add no new ones and your wanting it to be almost as easy as slicing butter. I pray that DDO only laughs at your suggestion and not take it for real. There should definately never be any skill, ability or racial respecs ever.

[Quanefel]

Explain why this "far from D&D" and why this is a bad thing.

If you can respec your character's feats, enhancements, ability scores and skills as needed, then it becomes easier for non-stackable builds to find a group.

Being able to find groups is important because not finding groups negatively affect the gaming experience.

Far from P&P rules, there is NO rule in D&D that allows for at will, instant respeccing of any aspect of a character. None. How is it bad? At will means a player can remake his character for any situation, at any time and cause so many issues. Not the least of which would be breaking content by everyone building a character perfectly to match any quest/raid or content that the Dev's will not be able to address as quickly as players are able to readjust AT WILL. Patches or fixes require time, there is no way for the Dev's to keep up with at will respeccing by ALL players. That is a disaster waiting to happen.

Easier to find groups? That would suggest that it is some massive problem now. If we have not had any of these respecs since start and we have been grouping just fine then how is at will going to address a problem that was not there in the first place? You are inventing issues now.

Respeccing at will would have a far, far greater negative impact on the game than some players desire to respec on a whim, at any moment he wants. Not having the game become broke is far more important than someone not making their character correctly.

[eonfreon]

If you can respec your character's feats, enhancements, ability scores and skills as needed, then it becomes easier for non-stackable builds to find a group.

Being able to find groups is important because not finding groups negatively affect the gaming experience.

Wait a minute.
So if I wanted to change the Enhancements of my Paladin from Hunter to KotC and back again to Hunter I would not have to wait 3 days.
What madness is this you bring to the table?
Is it not more fair and balanced as it stands?
Currently it would be:
"Hey Bro, can you bring your Pally to do Madstone?"
"Sure, let me respec him to Hunter for the Undead stuff, I'm still KotC from last week's Shroud run."
Quest completed.
"Hey want to do this Shroud run? We need DPS, some of the rest of these guys are a little weak."
"Sure. Unfortunately you'll have to take me as is, I respecced to Hunter and I'll have to wait 3 days until I can respec again. But next Shroud I'll be back to KoTC."
"Well that's too bad. The extra dps would have helped offset some of our low dps members. Think I should kick one of the Casters? Nah, heck, we can do it. If it was Easy it Wouldn't be Uber!!!"
"Yeah, man, my Pally is Uber. I would be gimp if I couldn't compensate for the decisions I made before. Onwards!!"

Just kidding.
I can see Enhancements and even Feats but Skills and Ability Scores?
Are you saying that if I wanted to give Intimidate to my Fighter who didn't know what the heck Intimidate was, I should be allowed?
Shouldn't I just accept that I didn't know what Intimidate was and how important it could be and that I now learned my lesson which I applied to my rerolled character, who I now leveled, and now some newb wants to just be able to switch from Heal (which Sounds useful) to Intimidate (huh?) without having to reroll.
Convince me that since I had to do it I should allow someone else to get what I got without having to do what I did
.

[Borror0]

Far from P&P rules, there is NO rule in D&D that allows for at will, instant respeccing of any aspect of a character. None.

Simply because D&D does not allow it does not mean it is a bad, or even that it would ruin the "spirit of D&D".

DDO is an MMO and for that reason, some modifications have to be done.

How is it bad? At will means a player can remake his character for any situation, at any time and cause so many issues.

This argument does not explain why it is bad for DDO to move away from D&D in this instance.

Furthermore, simply it will "cause so many issue" is mere rhetoric. List them or don't make a baseless argument.

Not the least of which would be breaking content by everyone building a character perfectly to match any quest/raid or content that the Dev's will not be able to address as quickly as players are able to readjust AT WILL.

Quite obviously, as all other MMOs where instant respec with no timer create the same issue... oh wait, those MMOs don't have that issue.

There are many other issues with that kind of argument, but I figure one objection is enough for now.

That would suggest that it is some massive problem now.

Try to get a fighter intimitank in an Elite Shroud run, for fun.
Try to get two warchanter bards in the same Elite Shroud run, for fun.

The list goes on.

[Quanefel]

Wait a minute.
So if I wanted to change the Enhancements of my Paladin from Hunter to KotC and back again to Hunter I would not have to wait 3 days.
What madness is this you bring to the table?
Is it not more fair and balanced as it stands?
Currently it would be:
"Hey Bro, can you bring your Pally to do Madstone?"
"Sure, let me respec him to Hunter for the Undead stuff, I'm still KotC from last week's Shroud run."
Quest completed.
"Hey want to do this Shroud run? We need DPS, some of the rest of these guys are a little weak."
"Sure. Unfortunately you'll have to take me as is, I respecced to Hunter and I'll have to wait 3 days until I can respec again. But next Shroud I'll be back to KoTC."
"Well that's too bad. The extra dps would have helped offset some of our low dps members. Think I should kick one of the Casters? Nah, heck, we can do it. If it was Easy it Wouldn't be Uber!!!"
"Yeah, man, my Pally is Uber. I would be gimp if I couldn't compensate for the decisions I made before. Onwards!!"

Just kidding.
I can see Enhancements and even Feats but Skills and Ability Scores?
Are you saying that if I wanted to give Intimidate to my Fighter who didn't know what the heck Intimidate was, I should be allowed?
Shouldn't I just accept that I didn't know what Intimidate was and how important it could be and that I now learned my lesson which I applied to my rerolled character, who I now leveled, and now some newb wants to just be able to switch from Heal (which Sounds useful) to Intimidate (huh?) without having to reroll.
Convince me that since I had to do it I should allow someone else to get what I got without having to do what I did
.

One would have to assume there is a problem with people not getting into groups now without a large list of respecs in place. Since those respecs do not exist, the imaginary "problems" of not being able to respec as will does not exist either.

How is respeccing at will going to teach someone a lesson on not knowing about Intimidate? It won't because it a false, made up situation.

[Borror0]

Convince me that since I had to do it I should allow someone else to get what I got without having to do what I did
.

Being punished harshly for not having a perfect knowledge of the game or not making the right guess, makes the game less appealing to many. It is not that they want an easy button or don't want to be challenged, it is that they want to be able to learn from their mistakes without having to start over from scratch (rerolling).

Not to mention you would gain from it too, since the game's rule change with updates.

One would have to assume there is a problem with people not getting into groups now without a large list of respecs in place.

There are such problems.

How is respeccing at will going to teach someone a lesson on not knowing about Intimidate?

Wrong question.

The correction question is "Why is it advantageous for us to allow a player to respec easily once he found out that his character needed Intimidate?"
The answer to that question is above.

[eonfreon]

Far from P&P rules, there is NO rule in D&D that allows for at will, instant respeccing of any aspect of a character.

I have to comment on this one statement because I take issue with this sentiment.
The D&D rules that I played by allowed ANYTHING to occur so long as the DM and Players agreed that it occurred and it made a good story and allowed many pizzas and cokes to be consumed.
And this was specifically allowed in my Bible, er I mean AD&D Dungeon Masters Guide, written by the great prophet, er I mean Game Developer Gary Gygax.
That's what allowed my buddy to change his Half-Elven Ranger/Druid into a Cavalier/Druid (oh gosh we wanted to try some Unearthed Arcanum stuff and bent all kinds of rules- at least my Elven Thief/MU turned into a Thief-Acrobat/MU without issues- but what were our 16 yr old minds thinking- a Cavalier and a Druid really couldn't be more far apart- but it wasn't technically at-will since we invented a story that took a quest I made up on the spot and an entire year of "training" which we said had occurred by the time we sat down to play again) and back again to a Ranger/Druid when we came to our senses.
So perhaps the D&D you played by didn't allow it but the D&D I played by did.

[Quanefel]

Simply because D&D does not allow it does not mean it is a bad, or even that it would ruin the "spirit of D&D".

DDO is an MMO and for that reason, some modifications have to be done.

This argument does not explain why it is bad for DDO to move away from D&D in this instance.

Furthermore, simply it will "cause so many issue" is mere rhetoric. List them or don't make a baseless argument.

Quite obviously, as all other MMOs where instant respec with no timer create the same issue... oh wait, those MMOs don't have that issue.

There are many other issues with that kind of argument, but I figure one objection is enough for now.

Try to get a fighter intimitank in an Elite Shroud run, for fun.
Try to get two warchanter bards in the same Elite Shroud run, for fun.

The list goes on.

So even though it is not in the rules and might be against the spirit of the game, that is not enough to not allow it because YOU, personally do not think it is "bad". Question, if you think it is not "bad" then you can explain why D&D does not have all these at will, instant respecs you want, and how you want them.

DDO is an MMO, I kind of knew that. DDO also is a game based off the rules and mechanics of D&D that WoTC have license to. In order for Turbine to step greatly away from D&D rules and mechanics I'd imagine they need to give WoTc a very, very good reason why DDO should be pulled away from what D&D is.

Having timers, a real cost value and other limits on each individual respecs is a compromise. Having at will, no timer and reduced(or no cost at all) attached to any respec is not a compromise.

AS far as modifying some mechanic or rule, you need a base to work off of. Modifying anything requires something to be in place at the start in order to modify. What you are talking about is a creation of something new, not a modification of some rule or mechanice that does not exist.

Baseless? Rhetoric? I was hoping for more fallacy words which you are keen on using....against anyone making any arguement against you. At least you are expanding out with more dismissal words.

"all other MMOs where instant respec with no timer" <------ Please, list them ALL.

How about I try to get any class, any race with any build type I want into any raid or quest I want? Done. Stop making up BS situations just to garner or get an emotional appeal.

[branmakmuffin]

Arrgh, this thread has been totally turned into yet another respec argument.

[Quanefel]

Being punished harshly for not having a perfect knowledge of the game or not making the right guess, makes the game less appealing to many. It is not that they want an easy button or don't want to be challenged, it is that they want to be able to learn from their mistakes without having to start over from scratch (rerolling).

Not to mention you would gain from it too, since the game's rule change with updates.

There are such problems.

Wrong question.

The correction question is "Why is it advantageous for us to allow a player to respec easily once he found out that his character needed Intimidate?"
The answer to that question is above.

Being punished? Going for more emotional appeals are we? How is anyone learning from a mistake by at will, instance respeccing?

There are such problems with a situation that does not exist? Fact, there are none of these instant, at will respecs in game. Fact, since these things do not and have not existed in DDO then problems finding groups with these things that do not exist either. This grouping problem does not exist, much like your made on DOOM situation does NOT exist.

Wrong question? No, wrong response my friend. If anyone poses a question you do not like, YOU do not get to deterimine it is a "wrong" question because it does not fit well with your ideas you want to push on the rest of us. Personally, I will stick with letting people ask their own questions and give their own answers rather than trying to direct everyone else into one and only one way of thinking.

[Borror0]

So even though it is not in the rules and might be against the spirit of the game, that is not enough to not allow it because YOU, personally do not think it is "bad".

It has never been established that this was against the spirit of the game. Please demonstrate it is.

Question, if you think it is not "bad" then you can explain why D&D does not have all these at will, instant respecs you want, and how you want them.

D&D does not have instant respec because it does not need them.

D&D: Quests are built by the DM for a specific group of players, and balanced as such.
DDO: Groups are built by players to beat a particular adventure and members are selected carefully for that reason.

If you prefer, D&D does not need respec because the quest is made for the characters doing the quest. On the other hand, DDO quests are built with thousands of players in mind, and thus are not fine tuned for a few players. Therefore, players need the ability to adapt since the quests are not adapted to them.

"all other MMOs where instant respec with no timer" <------ Please, list them ALL.

I won't know all MMOs with respec but no timer, but I will list two you may know: World of Warcraft and Lord of the Rings Online.