Ability, Skill respecs, 32 point/drow unlocks.

[OnyxBMW]

EDIT: The idea has changed quite heavily since the original creation of this thread, from mostly giving away the 32/drow builds, and allowing ability score and skill respecs, to something else.

Though I still would like to champion ability/skill respecs, it's pointless to continue against the tide and create further wars between people with 2 different opinions as to if respecs should or shouldn't be done.


To that end, however, one point has stuck out, which I would like this thread to move in that direction. Namely, the ability to spend the 4 points from unlocking 32 point builds into your 28 point characters.

The proposal instead will change to this. Once someone unlocks 32 point builds, they should be allowed one of 2 or 3 options (whichever is easiest to code with the least difficulty, preferably).

Option one: The ability to spend the 4 points into the build, as if they had 4 more points to spend. An ability would cost exactly as much as it would as if you were just spending it into the ability at creation. If it requires 1, it only costs 1. If 2, 2. If 3, 3. If it's maxed, it cannot be raised. Int would NOT be allowed to be changed, more on this later.

Option two: The ability to respec your character's abilities as a one-time only respec so that you can shuffle the extra 4 points into the build. The reason for allowing a full rebuild is this. In some cases. your points can be spread really generally, in such a fashion that working 4 points into a build is not as simple as raising some dump stats from 8 to 10 (or the like). For characters with such builds, for instance monks, or clerics (not just those, just an example), they can potentially benefit from shuffling all abilities around to fit them in properly. Again, int wouldn't be allowed, more on this later.

Option three: This would be the same as option two, but it'd allow int (or option one, but again, int is allowed.

The Conundrum of Intelligence: The problem with int is that it directly affects skill points. Even a shift of 1 point may require a skill respec to prevent it from being overpowered (or underpowered, pending which direction you go). To this end, skills would have to be respecced, period, if int is touched.

My favored way to deal with skill respecs is, since they (should) know what class you are at what level, and tracking where your int is (should) be simple (depending on how it's coded. It could also be a nightmare, especially depending on tomes), that they should simply let you relevel your character's skills, 1 by 1, as if you were releveling, but with the abilities/class selection already chosen.

That is my favored way to deal with it, at least. With tomes, I'd say if you have an int tome, it should be made retroactive under such a respec system, but that's another debate I don't feel should be brought up at this time. Why am I bringing it up anyways? Good question.


Regardless, this is how the thread has shifted, so please comment mostly on the ability to upgrade from 28 to 32 point builds on the character that unlocks it.

That said, also, related to respeccing. I did have another idea for those curious on page 18 of this thread. It will not be moved to the original post for reasons stated, but if you wish to know what was said, it's there to look up.

Thank's for the lively debate so far, as well.

Enjoy,
~Onyx

[Thok]

Ability point respec will never happen (thougth I like the idea). The 1750 32 point builds were put into the game to keep people playing. If you have to rebuild a character with 32 points then you must also rerun the quests. If you are allowed to "rebuy" ability points after you hit 1750, then you likely wouldn't rerun the quests. From a buisness point of view, keeping you "grinding" or replaying old quests or building new toons make sense because you must then put the time in. If you're still playing old quests and/or building new toons you're likely to re up when your sub runs out (not to mention the dev time needed to build new quests).

[Borror0]

The ability to upgrade from 28 points to 32 points just makes sense.

I took a break from DDO and started playing LOTRO. The most pleasant thing, of all, was that I could roll as many characters and not be worried that anything unlocked by one of my character would make me reroll all the characters I had rolled (make me, in my case, encourage to, generally speaking).

It don't mind 32 point buy builds and drow being unlocked later with favor (although unlocking drow makes little sense) but being encouraged to run through the content to then be able roll another character is dumb, and it affects a lot of players' fun negatively. Don't get me started on being encouraged to delete and reroll your first character.

Being able to upgrade is required.

[Borror0]

From a buisness point of view, keeping you "grinding" or replaying old quests or building new toons make sense because you must then put the time in.

As Vastin on the LOTRO forums often says, players are the best at coming up with schemes to make the game less fun for themselves.

Let me summarize it for you:

• Character improvement is something pleasant
• Starting over or having the feeling of wasting time is not something pleasant

[Thok]

I mostly agree Borro0. We can take the fun out of DDO sometimes. But DDO is also a closed system that is completely controlled by Turbine. This isn't an open source game where players can change the code or make improvements so Turbine can affect the enjoyment we get from playing. The Turbine folks have to balance player satisfaction with any changes or game requirements. 32 rebuys are a good example. From one point of view, Turbine is self-interested in keeping players playing so that they renew their subscriptions. From the other point of view, if they start to get carried away with requirements (like 1750 favor), then they sap the fun out of playing DDO. I like the idea of 32 point buys, I was just saying that it won't happen because it undermines one of the primary ways that Turbine keeps us playing.

[Borror0]

I was just saying that it won't happen because it undermines one of the primary ways that Turbine keeps us playing.

That seems to be the premise of your argument and it is highly debatable.

The question are:

• How many players really reroll their 28 point buy characters?
• How much tiem does it really add to their subscription duration?
• How many players does such a stupid design cost us?

As I said earlier, if Turbine want to introduce a grind they would be better serve by enforcing one that improves our character rather than make us start from zero and discourage players to experiment or explore. The current design is simply corrosive: it undermines the player's enjoyment from the moment he hears about it.

Grind, for the sake of it, is not good design.

[Thok]

That seems to be the premise of your argument and it is highly debatable.

The question are:

• How many players really reroll their 28 point buy characters?
• How much tiem does it really add to their subscription duration?
• How many players does such a stupid design cost us?

As I said earlier, if Turbine want to introduce a grind they would be better serve by enforcing one that improves our character rather than make us start from zero and discourage players to experiment or explore. The current design is simply corrosive: it undermines the player's enjoyment from the moment he hears about it.

Grind, for the sake of it, is not good design.

No. Grind for its own sake is not good design, but its not really a design question. The answers to your questions are empirical and we don't have access to the data generated by gameplay so I can't say one way or the other. I can say that starting from zero doesn't discourage me from experimenting or exploring. I simply find new ways to level my characters. Any MMO is going to be interested in keeping players coming back for more and 1750 favor is one great (although certainly not the only way) Turbine does this.

[Quanefel]

Maybe Turbine should remove the favor system altogether and just give every starting player all the favor rewards outright, so they can avoid earning them?

[Borror0]

Maybe Turbine should remove the favor system altogether and just give every starting player all the favor rewards outright, so they can avoid earning them?

Straw man.

If you bothered to read the OP, the problem is not the favor reward but about being encouraged to start over again and discouraged to explore by making multiple builds before unlocking 32 point buy, none of which are pleasant feelings. Therefore, it would make sense to allow characters to be upgraded.

The gripe is not about having to gain the favor for the reward.

Any MMO is going to be interested in keeping players coming back for more and 1750 favor is one great (although certainly not the only way) Turbine does this.

1750 is a twisted way to accomplish this goal, not a great one. No other MMO that I know of have similar design, for good reasons.

[Hafeal]

Maybe Turbine should remove the favor system altogether and just give every starting player all the favor rewards outright, so they can avoid earning them?

Whoa - now that's a loaded question.

[Quanefel]

Straw man.

If you bothered to read the OP, the problem is not the favor reward but about being encouraged to start over again and discouraged to explore by making multiple builds before unlocking 32 point buy, none of which are pleasant feelings. Therefore, it would make sense to allow characters to be upgraded.

The gripe is not about having to gain the favor for the reward.

1750 is a twisted way to accomplish this goal, not a great one. No other MMO that I know of have similar design, for good reasons.

Strawman, really? You need new material, that is getting OLD.

Oh, I read the OP's post. I do not need anyone suggesting I didn't. Maybe you need to reread his post because he clearly writes that 32 point builds and drow should be GIVEN to all starting characters.

"Unpleasant feelings" is why it makes sense to allow 32 point ungrades? Using emotional appeals instead of logic now are we?

If it is a twisted way to accomplishing the goal of getting a 32 point build, again, why bother having it at all?

[Borror0]

"Unpleasant feelings" is why it makes sense to allow 32 point ungrades? Using emotional appeals instead of logic now are we?

It is appealing to logic.

Follow the simplistic syllogism:
1. A game is supposed to be fun.
2. The feeling of starting over is not fun.
3. Therefore, a game should avoid encouraging their players to start over (without good reasons).

If it is a twisted way to accomplishing the goal of getting a 32 point build, again, why bother having it at all?

Let me repost it again:

• Character improvement is something pleasant
• Starting over or having the feeling of wasting time is not something pleasant

[Quanefel]

It is appealing to logic.

Follow the simplistic syllogism:
1. A game is supposed to be fun.
2. The feeling of starting over is not fun.
3. Therefore, a game should avoid to make you start over (with good reasons).

Let me repost it again:

• Character improvement is something pleasant
• Starting over or having the feeling of wasting time is not something pleasant

Logic is emotions/feelings based? News to me.

1. Fun is what we make it. No one is required to bust out favor if they do not think it is "fun".
2. We "start over" with each new character we create.
3. Avoid starting over? Maybe MMO's can have all accounts with fully capped characters, made perfectly in every way so their customers can avoid....starting over, ever.

Character improvement is not what this about. Suggesting it is so it is an attempt and emotional appeal. Because, gosh darn it...who would be against character improvement?? Right, I see right through that.

This is about getting favor rewards without having to put any effort into it because some out their feel "entitled" to it. Feelings of wasting time, something unpleasant? Are we all gonna be required to start group hugging or something now?

/vomit

[Borror0]

Logic is emotions/feelings based? News to me.

Since video games deal with emotions, it normal for an argument to rely on the feeling generated by a feature, positive or not.

Fun is what we make it. No one is required to bust out favor if they do not think it is "fun".

The problem is not that I have to grind favor, the problem is that players are encouraged to only play a character and then encouraged to delete all previously existing characters to be able to take advantage of the newly obtained reward, invalidating all the time they have invested previously (with the exception of the time put to reach 1750 favor).

If you prefer, the current design creates a lose/lose situation. The players don't get to pick what they prefer, but what they despise the least.

We "start over" with each new character we create.

Argument based on semantic.

Starting over, as I used it, implied losing all previous progress (by deleting the character) whereas your usage of starting over does not. Since your are not using the same definition as I am, your counter-argument is invalid. Try again, with the correct definition.

Maybe MMO's can have all accounts with fully capped characters, made perfectly in every way so their customers can avoid....starting over, ever.

Blatant straw man totally disconnected the argument being made, and therefore not worth refuting.

This is about getting favor rewards without having to put any effort into it because some out their feel "entitled" to it.

Demonstrate how upgrading a character from 28 point buy to 32 point buy after reaching 1750 favor is "getting favor rewards without having to put any effort into it".

[Strakeln]

First of all, let me preface with this. As a new player coming into DDO, one of the things I hate the most about this game is how the favor unlocks for 32 point builds and drow work. Honestly, with how I play, because of this system, I go in and expect to delete a character once I unlock (drow, in this case). And, frankly, grinding out 400 favor, then 1750 favor, only to remake a character is a tad frustrating. I am still having fun at this game, which is why I subbed, and will begrudgingly accept the system as is despite this flaw.

As an experienced player who has been here for quite a while, I agree with your stance on this and have on multiple occasions tried to suggest that we get rid of favor rewards such as Drow and 32-point, or at least change the rewards so that they don't induce the "delete and reroll upon unlock" that you mention.

It seems that the stance of many is that they had to do it, so should you. A very poor stance, in my opinion, and one that refuses to see much past the end of one's nose.

I've even argued that this is something that may turn away new players, that someone coming in might not like this setup. I was told I was foolish for thinking such things... despite numerous people stating that was how they felt, and despite posts like yours.

Here's to hoping Turbine will eventually wake up and smell the coffee.

[dragons1ayer74]

Favor rewards are a great idea and could easily be improved upon but we don't need Drow or 32 point options as part of the rewards they should just be availible for every one right of the start.

[Quanefel]

Since video games deal with emotions, it normal for an argument to rely on the feeling generated by a feature, positive or not.

The problem is not that I have to grind favor, the problem is that players are encouraged to only play a character and then encouraged to delete all previously existing characters to be able to take advantage of the newly obtained reward, invalidating all the time they have invested previously (with the exception of the time put to reach 1750 favor).

If you prefer, the current design creates a lose/lose situation. The players don't get to pick what they prefer, but what they despise the least.

Argument based on semantic.

Starting over, as I used it, implied losing all previous progress (by deleting the character) whereas your usage of starting over does not. Since your are not using the same definition as I am, your counter-argument is invalid. Try again, with the correct definition.

Blatant straw man totally disconnected from reality and the argument being made, and therefore not worth refuting.

Demonstrate how upgrading a character from 28 point buy to 32 point buy after reaching 1750 favor is "getting favor rewards without having to put any effort into it".

Almost everything in life "deals" with emotion, it does not mean emotional appeals are ok to use in arguement. Less emotion, more logic please.

Players are encouraged to "Only" play one character for this reward? Really....ONLY? Is someone holding a gun to their heads or is a matter of free will? That is rather bold to make such a claim as "only" in this regards.

Encouraged to delete "all" previous existing characters in order to take advantage of this reward?

And please, explain how Turbine setting up a favor reward system in DDO is a lose/lose situation. Let me guess, working towards a goal would make some people "feel bad"?

How about I use the defintion I want and you use the defintion you want? Or I can ignore your further attempts to invalidate my arguements which is fairly normal for you. If I wanted a break-down of arguing fallacies I would have asked. But thanks anyways.

Blatant strawman, not worth refuting? Man, you never give up on tossing fallacy words around instead of actual arguements. If it was not worth refuting, maybe you should have just avoided commenting about it for starters?

I'd love to demonstrate what you wrote but one small problem, what you remarked about had NOTHING to do with what I was writting about earlier. I am going off what the OP put in his Summation right at the top:

"In summation, I believe the drow, and 32 point builds should be given to everyone, including new people, without needing to do a favor unlock, and that 400 and 1750 favor milestones should be, in fact, replaced with something else that is as good, but doesn't feel "necessary" to a new player coming into the game seeing the 4 point disparity in builds as something imbalancing."

[Hafeal]

There is no doubt in my mind favor rewards should be redone.

I have previously suggested favor rewards and "account" rewards to differentiate between character accomplishments and account accomplishments. Didn't seem to draw much interest.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=173418

[Borror0]

Players are encouraged to "Only" play one character for this reward? Really....ONLY? Is someone holding a gun to their heads or is a matter of free will? That is rather bold to make such a claim as "only" in this regards.

I think you need to look up the definition of encourage and try to understand how it differs from force.

As for "only", yes, the current design encourages players to limit themselves to one character rather than play multiple.

Encouraged to delete "all" previous existing characters in order to take advantage of this reward?

Exactly. Since the reward only applies to newly created characters, if a player wants to take advantage of the reward on his existing characters, he has to delete them and start anew. While the character does not have to do it, he is encouraged to do so.

And please, explain how Turbine setting up a favor reward system in DDO is a lose/lose situation.

Players have the choice between:

• Deleting a character to take advantage of the reward on that character, thereby losing all progress previously made on that character
• Not deleting the character but accepting that the character will never be as good as could be

Neither are fun decisions to make.

How about I use the defintion I want and you use the defintion you want?

Nonsensical position. For there to be an argument, interlocutors have to use the same definitions.

Otherwise, situations like these can happen:
Person #1: That is not right.
Person #2: What does whether something is right or left have anything to do with the discussion?

I'd love to demonstrate what you wrote but one small problem, what you remarked about had NOTHING to do with what I was writting about earlier.

I was trying to differentiation two requests:

• The ability to upgrade 28 point buy builds into 32 point buy
• Not having to gain drow and 32 point buy

It would not be logical to refute one request by opposing the other. The two requests are not intertwined.

There's also another problem with your position. The OP said:

[...] and replace the 400/1750 favor unlock with something juicy in its place (in addition to the +2 tome for 1750).

Therefore, you cannot conclude that the OP is opposed to favor rewards. It would be illogical and/or dishonest.

[Quanefel]

I think you need to look up the definition of encourage and try to understand how it differs from force.

As for "only", yes, the current design encourages players to limit themselves to one character rather than play multiple.

Exactly. Since the reward only applies to newly created characters, if a player wants to take advantage of the reward on his existing characters, he has to delete them and start anew. While the character does not have to do it, he is encouraged to do so.

Players have the choice between:

• Deleting a character to take advantage of the reward on that character, thereby losing all progress previously made on that character
• Not deleting the character but accepting that the character will never be as good as could be

Neither are fun decisions to make.

Nonsensical position. For there to be an argument, interlocutors have to use the same definitions.

Otherwise, situations like these can happen:
Person #1: That is not right.
Person #2: What does whether something is right or left have anything to do with the discussion?

I was trying to differentiation two requests:

• The ability to upgrade 28 point buy builds into 32 point buy
• Not having to gain drow and 32 point buy

It would not be logical to refute one request by opposing the other. The two requests are not intertwined.

There's also another problem with your position. The OP said:
Therefore, you cannot conclude that the OP is opposed to favor rewards. It would be illogical and/or dishonest.

No one is being encouraged or anything of the sort to get a 32 point build. It is a reward for anyone if they so desire it. Nor is anyone being limited to ONLY one character in order to get it. There are plenty people, including myself that played many characters until we got 1750 and many of us kept those characters as is IF we wanted.

So let's stop pretending anyone is limited to one character for this, it is false. Flat out false. If someone does decide to reroll a 28 point build into a 32 point build, that is their choice. No one is encouraging anyone to do anything, it is our choice to do so or not.

A character not being "as good as could be" is an opinion. There are plenty of people who still have their original 28 point builds who disagree with any assertion that those characters are somehow...not as good as a 32 point builds.

Players also have more than the 2 choices you outlined above. One you forgot is....not worrying about 1750 and just play for fun. Another choice is not being so jealous over what others have earned through hard work and stop demanding they get the same reward of drow and 32 point build by having it handed to them.

Considering how much of a joke it is now with how EASY it really is to get favor than it was when it first came out. This does not mean someone like me is bitter about that but it is annoying to say the least for even when it is made easier to get, to some it is not enough. To some, they want it handed to them at account creation. Trying to make everyone to be "equal" is unfun to some of us. At least those of us who do not believe any type socialism should be in game or real life.

It would be illogical and dishonest to take something I am writing about and making into a whole differerent arguement that I was not making. I am pointing out that the OP wants Drow and 32 poit builds to be given to everyone and you go off on some other direction then claim that other assertion YOU made up for me is illogical? IF I wanted to remark on the OP wanting to put something else in place of the 400/1750 mark, I would have wrote about it.