Ability, Skill respecs, 32 point/drow unlocks.

[OnyxBMW]

EDIT: The idea has changed quite heavily since the original creation of this thread, from mostly giving away the 32/drow builds, and allowing ability score and skill respecs, to something else.

Though I still would like to champion ability/skill respecs, it's pointless to continue against the tide and create further wars between people with 2 different opinions as to if respecs should or shouldn't be done.


To that end, however, one point has stuck out, which I would like this thread to move in that direction. Namely, the ability to spend the 4 points from unlocking 32 point builds into your 28 point characters.

The proposal instead will change to this. Once someone unlocks 32 point builds, they should be allowed one of 2 or 3 options (whichever is easiest to code with the least difficulty, preferably).

Option one: The ability to spend the 4 points into the build, as if they had 4 more points to spend. An ability would cost exactly as much as it would as if you were just spending it into the ability at creation. If it requires 1, it only costs 1. If 2, 2. If 3, 3. If it's maxed, it cannot be raised. Int would NOT be allowed to be changed, more on this later.

Option two: The ability to respec your character's abilities as a one-time only respec so that you can shuffle the extra 4 points into the build. The reason for allowing a full rebuild is this. In some cases. your points can be spread really generally, in such a fashion that working 4 points into a build is not as simple as raising some dump stats from 8 to 10 (or the like). For characters with such builds, for instance monks, or clerics (not just those, just an example), they can potentially benefit from shuffling all abilities around to fit them in properly. Again, int wouldn't be allowed, more on this later.

Option three: This would be the same as option two, but it'd allow int (or option one, but again, int is allowed.

The Conundrum of Intelligence: The problem with int is that it directly affects skill points. Even a shift of 1 point may require a skill respec to prevent it from being overpowered (or underpowered, pending which direction you go). To this end, skills would have to be respecced, period, if int is touched.

My favored way to deal with skill respecs is, since they (should) know what class you are at what level, and tracking where your int is (should) be simple (depending on how it's coded. It could also be a nightmare, especially depending on tomes), that they should simply let you relevel your character's skills, 1 by 1, as if you were releveling, but with the abilities/class selection already chosen.

That is my favored way to deal with it, at least. With tomes, I'd say if you have an int tome, it should be made retroactive under such a respec system, but that's another debate I don't feel should be brought up at this time. Why am I bringing it up anyways? Good question.


Regardless, this is how the thread has shifted, so please comment mostly on the ability to upgrade from 28 to 32 point builds on the character that unlocks it.

That said, also, related to respeccing. I did have another idea for those curious on page 18 of this thread. It will not be moved to the original post for reasons stated, but if you wish to know what was said, it's there to look up.

Thank's for the lively debate so far, as well.

Enjoy,
~Onyx

[Thok]

Ability point respec will never happen (thougth I like the idea). The 1750 32 point builds were put into the game to keep people playing. If you have to rebuild a character with 32 points then you must also rerun the quests. If you are allowed to "rebuy" ability points after you hit 1750, then you likely wouldn't rerun the quests. From a buisness point of view, keeping you "grinding" or replaying old quests or building new toons make sense because you must then put the time in. If you're still playing old quests and/or building new toons you're likely to re up when your sub runs out (not to mention the dev time needed to build new quests).

[Borror0]

From a buisness point of view, keeping you "grinding" or replaying old quests or building new toons make sense because you must then put the time in.

As Vastin on the LOTRO forums often says, players are the best at coming up with schemes to make the game less fun for themselves.

Let me summarize it for you:

• Character improvement is something pleasant
• Starting over or having the feeling of wasting time is not something pleasant

[Thok]

I mostly agree Borro0. We can take the fun out of DDO sometimes. But DDO is also a closed system that is completely controlled by Turbine. This isn't an open source game where players can change the code or make improvements so Turbine can affect the enjoyment we get from playing. The Turbine folks have to balance player satisfaction with any changes or game requirements. 32 rebuys are a good example. From one point of view, Turbine is self-interested in keeping players playing so that they renew their subscriptions. From the other point of view, if they start to get carried away with requirements (like 1750 favor), then they sap the fun out of playing DDO. I like the idea of 32 point buys, I was just saying that it won't happen because it undermines one of the primary ways that Turbine keeps us playing.

[Borror0]

I was just saying that it won't happen because it undermines one of the primary ways that Turbine keeps us playing.

That seems to be the premise of your argument and it is highly debatable.

The question are:

• How many players really reroll their 28 point buy characters?
• How much tiem does it really add to their subscription duration?
• How many players does such a stupid design cost us?

As I said earlier, if Turbine want to introduce a grind they would be better serve by enforcing one that improves our character rather than make us start from zero and discourage players to experiment or explore. The current design is simply corrosive: it undermines the player's enjoyment from the moment he hears about it.

Grind, for the sake of it, is not good design.

[Thok]

That seems to be the premise of your argument and it is highly debatable.

The question are:

• How many players really reroll their 28 point buy characters?
• How much tiem does it really add to their subscription duration?
• How many players does such a stupid design cost us?

As I said earlier, if Turbine want to introduce a grind they would be better serve by enforcing one that improves our character rather than make us start from zero and discourage players to experiment or explore. The current design is simply corrosive: it undermines the player's enjoyment from the moment he hears about it.

Grind, for the sake of it, is not good design.

No. Grind for its own sake is not good design, but its not really a design question. The answers to your questions are empirical and we don't have access to the data generated by gameplay so I can't say one way or the other. I can say that starting from zero doesn't discourage me from experimenting or exploring. I simply find new ways to level my characters. Any MMO is going to be interested in keeping players coming back for more and 1750 favor is one great (although certainly not the only way) Turbine does this.

[phinius]

The question are:

• How many players really reroll their 28 point buy characters?
• How much tiem does it really add to their subscription duration?
• How many players does such a stupid design cost us?

1) None and I have several.
2) None. I continue to play for other reasons.
3) I have recently talked to four new players that have accompanied other players returning to the game. Once they realized they had to grind out 1750 favor just the play the character they want to play, they quit. This also prevented the returning player from staying as well.

[Monkeytoe]

This isn't an open source game where players can change the code or make improvements

1) Is there such a game? Is it any good?

2) I still play my original 28pt character.
2a) Yes I have drow and 32 pt builds. I play them also.

3) About that open source game you were talking about....

4) You know that a drow character pretty much, attributes-wise pretty much beats 32 pointers anyway, right... I mean the only thing they cant max out and still have points left over to keep the lowest at 10 or more AND max out out something else is CON... I don't think this so much encourages "rebuilds" (anymore than any other aspect of the game) as it does building COMPLETELY different characters as different opportunities are unlocked... Drow sorc, bard or pally at 400pts... Waforged or Dwarven tank type at 1750... or whatever. This system is not one of the things thjat I recognize as a problem in the game. I kinda like it, actually.

[shores11]

Ability point respec will never happen (thougth I like the idea). The 1750 32 point builds were put into the game to keep people playing. If you have to rebuild a character with 32 points then you must also rerun the quests. If you are allowed to "rebuy" ability points after you hit 1750, then you likely wouldn't rerun the quests. From a buisness point of view, keeping you "grinding" or replaying old quests or building new toons make sense because you must then put the time in. If you're still playing old quests and/or building new toons you're likely to re up when your sub runs out (not to mention the dev time needed to build new quests).

/signed

The way the favor system is designed whether you personally like it or not (I like the way it is) is really good for the longevity of the game. A lot of WoW jumpers that come to DDO and expect everything at a push of a button like it was on WoW or to be able to stand in one spot and level up by killing over and over and over and over the same monster. Well, welcome to DDO the a game should be played.

[Borror0]

The ability to upgrade from 28 points to 32 points just makes sense.

I took a break from DDO and started playing LOTRO. The most pleasant thing, of all, was that I could roll as many characters and not be worried that anything unlocked by one of my character would make me reroll all the characters I had rolled (make me, in my case, encourage to, generally speaking).

It don't mind 32 point buy builds and drow being unlocked later with favor (although unlocking drow makes little sense) but being encouraged to run through the content to then be able roll another character is dumb, and it affects a lot of players' fun negatively. Don't get me started on being encouraged to delete and reroll your first character.

Being able to upgrade is required.

[Strakeln]

First of all, let me preface with this. As a new player coming into DDO, one of the things I hate the most about this game is how the favor unlocks for 32 point builds and drow work. Honestly, with how I play, because of this system, I go in and expect to delete a character once I unlock (drow, in this case). And, frankly, grinding out 400 favor, then 1750 favor, only to remake a character is a tad frustrating. I am still having fun at this game, which is why I subbed, and will begrudgingly accept the system as is despite this flaw.

As an experienced player who has been here for quite a while, I agree with your stance on this and have on multiple occasions tried to suggest that we get rid of favor rewards such as Drow and 32-point, or at least change the rewards so that they don't induce the "delete and reroll upon unlock" that you mention.

It seems that the stance of many is that they had to do it, so should you. A very poor stance, in my opinion, and one that refuses to see much past the end of one's nose.

I've even argued that this is something that may turn away new players, that someone coming in might not like this setup. I was told I was foolish for thinking such things... despite numerous people stating that was how they felt, and despite posts like yours.

Here's to hoping Turbine will eventually wake up and smell the coffee.

[dragons1ayer74]

Favor rewards are a great idea and could easily be improved upon but we don't need Drow or 32 point options as part of the rewards they should just be availible for every one right of the start.

[Kylani]

As an experienced player who has been here for quite a while, I agree with your stance on this and have on multiple occasions tried to suggest that we get rid of favor rewards such as Drow and 32-point, or at least change the rewards so that they don't induce the "delete and reroll upon unlock" that you mention.

It seems that the stance of many is that they had to do it, so should you. A very poor stance, in my opinion, and one that refuses to see much past the end of one's nose.

I've even argued that this is something that may turn away new players, that someone coming in might not like this setup. I was told I was foolish for thinking such things... despite numerous people stating that was how they felt, and despite posts like yours.

Here's to hoping Turbine will eventually wake up and smell the coffee.

I just started playing the game again with my sons. We've been having a good time. I just found out about the 1750 favor, and yes, it is a turn off.

I enjoy working for favor to get extra bank slots. I enjoy working for favor to unlock drow, so I can make a new character to enjoy in addition to the ones I've made.

I hate the thought that the characters I've been working on would be better with a 32 point build and the effort I've put into them will be wasted long term. It is a very BIG turnoff, one that has made me debate if its worth it.

I play ffxi and have every job on my character and many to 75. I couldn't take certain jobs till I got one of 6 main jobs to 30. Then I could open all the jobs, and I did. I never ever felt like what I did was wasted. I've spent a lot of time levelling jobs because each job is unique and offers different advantages as main/subjob combinations.

In this case, unlocking the 1750 makes the character, no matter how much effort you've put into them, worthless because they would without doubt be better with a 32 point build.

If I decide to cancel, and I'm leaning toward it after finding out about this, it will be because of the 1750 favor to get a 32 point build that won't even be valid for that character. I love taking my time, building a character that I will use. I hate building a character knowing it will be gimp the moment I hit the magical 1750. I hate knowing there is no point experimenting with different combos because those characters will be worthless. I hate knowing my character is innately gimp compared to any other character of the same level who has already hit the 1750 favor and has a 32 point build (this in addition to the benefits that players had from having gear, tomes, plat, knowing dungeons, etc from their higher level characters - I have no issue with this, but four additional points on top of that and eventually this character's going to have to be put to sleep anyway?). The last thing I want to do is group with others and be totally gimp until I get 1750 favor.

I guess I'm glad I found out about this before investing in the game and my characters more, but I'm incredibly disappointed.

[branmakmuffin]

I hate the thought that the characters I've been working on would be better with a 32 point build and the effort I've put into them will be wasted long term.

If you consider the time you've spent playing a game "wasted," it's time to do something else with your free time.

In this case, unlocking the 1750 makes the character, no matter how much effort you've put into them, worthless because they would without doubt be better with a 32 point build.

I don't understand this reasoning. You have to get to 1750 favor with a 28-point character (or, yes, a Drow). How could you possibly get a character to high enough level for 1750 favor if the character is worthless? A 28-point character is worth less than its 32-point equivalent, but to say it's worthless is needless hyperbole.

The last thing I want to do is group with others and be totally gimp until I get 1750 favor.

This is based on the untenable notion that 32-point characters are so vastly uber compared to 28-point characters that it must like comparing a supernova to a smoldering campfire. No one but you (and the people you choose to tell) know your character is 28-point.

I guess I'm glad I found out about this before investing in the game and my characters more, but I'm incredibly disappointed.

To me, this sounds insanely childish.

[Alavatar]

If you consider the time you've spent playing a game "wasted," it's time to do something else with your free time.

I just want to debate this point.

Some people don't mind starting over and repeating content. To them, doing the same thing in a different way is fun, which is what category I place you in, Bran.

Others, though, have fun by progressing and moving forward. To them, the game is about achievement, goals, and conquests. Moving backwards or starting over to these people is not fun. I would place Kylani in that group.

[branmakmuffin]

I just want to debate this point.

Some people don't mind starting over and repeating content. To them, doing the same thing in a different way is fun, which is what category I place you in, Bran.

Rather I am (more or less) content to accept a game I choose to play in the state it's in (assuming I have no control over its state).

out achievement, goals, and conquests. Moving backwards or starting over to these people is not fun. I would place Kylani in that group.

Rather I would say there are some people who cannot turn off their competitive urges for something as inconsequential as a game.

But if it's not fun, then indeed, yes, he should stop doing it.

[Kylani]

I just want to debate this point.

Some people don't mind starting over and repeating content. To them, doing the same thing in a different way is fun, which is what category I place you in, Bran.

Others, though, have fun by progressing and moving forward. To them, the game is about achievement, goals, and conquests. Moving backwards or starting over to these people is not fun. I would place Kylani in that group.

Thank you. I do like to progress forward. We've already created several types of characters and run them through the same beginning quests quite a bit (to the point where we're just glad to get the characters out of the starter areas).

The thought of enjoying these characters only to find out we have to restart at 1750 is a turn off to me.

It doesn't have to be a turn off to everyone, but yes, it is to me.

[Azdraugnor]

If you consider the time you've spent playing a game "wasted," it's time to do something else with your free time.

It's not that he hates playing the game, it's the fact that a character that he'll either have to delete a character he's put so much time in to, or swallow the fact that his character will always be weaker than he could be.

And the fact that Turbine could easily make it a non-issue makes it sting even more.

I don't understand this reasoning. You have to get to 1750 favor with a 28-point character (or, yes, a Drow). How could you possibly get a character to high enough level for 1750 favor if the character is worthless? A 28-point character is worth less than its 32-point equivalent, but to say it's worthless is needless hyperbole.

He didn't say "powerless", or "helpless", he said worthless. To him, a character who is weaker is a character not worth playing. It makes all the work spent leveling up that character feel like a waste.

This is based on the untenable notion that 32-point characters are so vastly uber compared to 28-point characters that it must like comparing a supernova to a smoldering campfire. No one but you (and the people you choose to tell) know your character is 28-point.

I actually agree with you here (somewhat), but for many players like to eke out every last bit of power from their characters. Knowing that his build is inherently inferior chafes at him every time every time he plays.

To me, this sounds insanely childish.

Personally, I consider it unreasonable that characters of the same class, race, and level, having taken the same feats, skills, and enhancements, using the same gear, and with the same buffs, can be unequal in terms of power through no fault of the weaker player.

[Borror0]

Bran, it's simply a different way to look at the game than yours.

If you consider the time you've spent playing a game "wasted," it's time to do something else with your free time.

To many, to feeling of improving a character is part of the fun.

The feeling of starting over feels like all the time you've put in that character was wasted. Yes, he/she enjoyed playing the character and the game, but the fact that the character is imperfect gives the impression that the player has invested time in a worthless character and thus wasted his/her time.

Perhaps that does not seem rational to you, but it does not need to. Many people feel that way, and therefore that is a problem for the DDO team.

How could you possibly get a character to high enough level for 1750 favor if the character is worthless?

In this case, the definition of worthless is subjective.

If I was to try to define your two definition, it would probably look like this.
Your definition: A worthless character is a character that cannot achieve the task he was made for (ie completing quests).
Kylani's definition: A worthless character is a character that could be improved by rerolling, as it is less than perfect.

This is based on the untenable notion that 32-point characters are so vastly uber compared to 28-point characters that it must like comparing a supernova to a smoldering campfire. No one but you (and the people you choose to tell) know your character is 28-point.

While four points is not much of a difference to you, it may mean a lot to someone else.

Matter of perspective.

[Kylani]

If you consider the time you've spent playing a game "wasted," it's time to do something else with your free time.


I don't understand this reasoning. You have to get to 1750 favor with a 28-point character (or, yes, a Drow). How could you possibly get a character to high enough level for 1750 favor if the character is worthless? A 28-point character is worth less than its 32-point equivalent, but to say it's worthless is needless hyperbole.


This is based on the untenable notion that 32-point characters are so vastly uber compared to 28-point characters that it must like comparing a supernova to a smoldering campfire. No one but you (and the people you choose to tell) know your character is 28-point.


To me, this sounds insanely childish.

It may be childish to you. To me, it's silly to choose to play a game that now feels like it is a waste of my time. To me, it's childish to call someone who realizes it is not the game for them of being childish for realizing it. "Suck it up and play or you're a child?" Very adult. I play for fun, not because you think I should be fine with this aspect of the game.

Every time you've run a dungeon, you lose some of the initial fun of exploration, wondering what will happen, will you be prepared. Trying it on harder settings, with different job combos, different groups is engaging and fun. I personally enjoy changing jobs and seeing what each one can do, trying different tactics, etc. I've rerolled characters numerous times as it is without realizing that these characters won't matter later anyway.

If I can get a 32 point build, it makes more sense to stick with a character, get it to 1750, then start really playing the game like I want to. I'm sorry, while I like the game, I don't like it enough to grind 1750 before I can relax and build a character I can truly invest in. I want to enjoy the adventures with my character, not build a character JUST to get to build another character where the dungeons will all be old hat. To me, a game is an adventure that I like to enjoy from level one.

If you like repeating content, that's fine. As I stated, I play a game because I enjoy building my character. I like to feel it is the best it can be. I'm very patient, but no, I don't find it fun to repeat content solely for the sake of paying Turbine money longer because they don't have fresh content to keep players otherwise. I like new challenges.