Ability, Skill respecs, 32 point/drow unlocks.

[Borror0]

Kate can promise anything she wants but it has to have the go ahead with WoTC. Why don't people understand that?

How is that relevant to whether respec would be good for the game or not?

WotC will make the call they will make. We have no way to know their answer and therefore you cannot use that reasoning.

[Quanefel]

How is that relevant to whether respec would be good for the game or not?

WotC will make the call they will make.

It is very relevant since WoTc are the ones who hold the copyright to all things D&D. Go against their wishes then bye bye DDO.

Correct, WotC will make the call. Not any one of us. We can argue and debate it all we want but they are the ones who give final say.

And for me, I am looking right at that and using that knowledge when I argue for or against any change in game. Not from my personal needs but what would be good for the game, even IF it effects me in a negative way. The game comes before my personal needs.

[eonfreon]

Acceptable to me? No, I think you have it wrong. It needs to be acceptable to not only Turbine but WoTC as well. WoTc does not simply allow Turbine to add things in DDO that is not within their vision, rules and mechanics of D&D. Look at what happened to gnomes, half-orcs, half-elves and druids for example. If it does not meet with WotC approval then it will not happen.

Kate can promise anything she wants but it has to have the go ahead with WoTC. Why don't people understand that?

Oh.
Well, I was only trying to see if we (as in you and I) could find any common ground.
I am well aware that Turbine and WoTC (as sad as it is to me) make the rules.
But I'll ask you again since I ain't sure if your "no" is to finding any acceptable way to modifying the current rules.
Or if by "no" you mean "No, I won't tell you my opinion because it is irrelevent compared to the opinion of Turbine and WoTC".
So, since you've obviously played WOW and I haven't, do you think that any attempt to modify WOW's respec system ( or better yet LOTRO since that's Turbine's other project, if you happen to play that) to DDO if costs could be fixed to be the "equivalent" in cost in DDo "currency"?

[Borror0]

It is very relevant since WoTc are the ones who hold the copyright to all things D&D.

Let me explain.

There are many step:
1. Players suggests respecs.
2. Turbine approves respecs.
3. WotC approves respecs.
4. Turbine codes respecs.
5. Players enjoys respecs.

You are trying to say that players should agree at step #1 that respecs are a bad idea because it might be refused at step #3.

That's illogical.

[Quanefel]

Let me explain.

There are many step:
1. Players suggests respecs.
2. Turbine approves respecs.
3. WotC approves respecs.
4. Turbine codes respecs.
5. Players enjoys respecs.

You are trying to say that players should agree at step #1 respecs are a bad idea because it might be refused at step #3.

That's illogical.

No, step one and 2 has already happened. What are you talking about?

[Borror0]

So, since you've obviously played WOW and I haven't, do you think that any attempt to modify WOW's respec system ( or better yet LOTRO since that's Turbine's other project, if you happen to play that) to DDO if costs could be fixed to be the "equivalent" in cost in DDo "currency"?

Both game basically offer what I proposed: respec without timer for a negligible monetary cost once capped.

Quanefel's arguments that LOTRO has some sort of timer or that the cost in WoW slows the respeccing are simply false.

No, step one and 2 has already happened. What are you talking about?

Then why the hell are you mentioning WotC?

[eonfreon]

Let me explain.

There are many step:
1. Players suggests respecs.
2. Turbine approves respecs.
3. WotC approves respecs.
4. Turbine codes respecs.
5. Players enjoys respecs.

You are trying to say that step #1 should not happen because it could be refused at step #3.

Heck no Bor.
It could also be refused at step #2.
And you forgot step 1a and 1b as well as the all-important *.

1a. Players start arguments on validity and expense of any sugestions. Goes back and forth for awhile.
1b. Finally both sides admit that this is their opinion and that's the way they feel about it.
* Maybe some developer sees this maybe not. Maybe he cares maybe not. Maybe this is already in the works maybe not. Maybe I'm a developer maybe not (okay I'm not). .

[eonfreon]

No, step one and 2 has already happened. What are you talking about?

Oh.
Step1 and 2 have already happened.
Waitaminutehere.
Are you saying that Turbine already has approved respecs?
And you contend that it is #3 that is somehow impeding #2 from implementing #4 and allowing #5 to happen?
Darn u #3, darn u!!!!!

[Quanefel]

Both game basically offer what I proposed: respec without timer for a negligible monetary cost once capped.

Quanefel's arguments that LOTRO has some sort of timer or that the cost in WoW slows the respeccing are simply false.

Then why the hell are you mentioning WotC?

Both offer basically what you proposed? So neither one has a cost value removed like you want in DDO respecs? No, they kind of do. Nor is either cheap by any means to the casual player. If you want to use them as a comparison then why do you shy away from their costs in time, money and other requirements but only want to use the fact they have a respec as the arguement.

They have costs in various ways in those respecs for a reason. You really think DDO is going to remove any hindrance to using any respec for at will use? You really think they will?

No, it is not false to say that LOTRO and WoW have artifical timers in place. They do. You do not want to see it because you want at will and that is all there is too it. I look at it in more realistic terms.

Why do I keep mentioning WoTC? How many of your steps are still left that you put out there that WoTC will still be involved? Thought so.

[bobbryan2]

Oh.
Step1 and 2 have already happened.
Waitaminutehere.
Are you saying that Turbine already has approved respecs?
And you contend that it is #3 that is somehow impeding #2 from implementing #4 and allowing #5 to happen?
Darn u #3, darn u!!!!!

Technically we are pretty sure they're actively coding it...

So, it would stand to reason that WoTC has no qualms with the idea... just as they obviously had no qualms about feat, enhancement, or spell respecs before.

The whole WotC thing is a red herring.

[eonfreon]

Why do I keep mentioning WoTC? How many of your steps are still left that you put out there that WoTC will still be involved? Thought so.

Well, I would figure IF WoTC were to allow step #3 (WoTC approval) then that would be basically the end of their involvement beyond perhaps consultation purposes, because I don't think WoTC would really be interested in being involved in #4 (Coding), although I'm sure WoTC will be the first to take credit for #5 (players have fun).

[Quanefel]

Oh.
Step1 and 2 have already happened.
Waitaminutehere.
Are you saying that Turbine already has approved respecs?
And you contend that it is #3 that is somehow impeding #2 from implementing #4 and allowing #5 to happen?
Darn u #3, darn u!!!!!

Step one has happened. Step 2 was spoke about vaguely as "being a top priority" by Kate. One small problem with that, it is Kate announcing it. Why people are banking everything simply because she said it with a track record of not following through on her promises is beyond me. People really have that much faith on...her word?

And the idea that the coding is already being worked on, that somehow it is a done deal and will be exactly how we want it is foolish to do. Half-orc, half-Elves and druids were coded and worked on for a long time, yet those are basically being scrapped because of WoTC.

Bobbryan, me throwing out WoTC is not a red herring. It is just something that some out there seem to forget is out there.

[bobbryan2]

Bobbryan, me throwing out WoTC is not a red herring. It is just something that some out there seem to forget is out there.

It's completely irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not respecs would be good for DDO... It's only relevant to the question of whether or not respecs 'can' be coded.

And... I'm pretty sure the former is the topic of discussion, not the latter.

[Borror0]

cost value removed like you want in DDO respecs

Straw man.

[Quanefel]

Straw man.

Strawman? So you did not write about wanting all cost values removed from respecs? Yes or no.

[eonfreon]

Technically we are pretty sure they're actively coding it...

So, it would stand to reason that WoTC has no qualms with the idea... just as they obviously had no qualms about feat, enhancement, or spell respecs before.

The whole WotC thing is a red herring.

Yeah that's what I figured.
thanks.
I really did not know about there really being a possiblity of respecs.
I vaguely remember some practically off-hand remark by Kate Paiz being referenced in a post once about her personal desire to respec her own Mournlands character (which stuck me as quite odd that Devs and Higher-Ups couldn't already).
I had no idea it may already be in the works.
Thanks Quanefel, for bringing me into this whole discussion. I would have made my one commented and probably would have ignored this thread from there on ( I mean seriously it had degenerated to "discussions" about the meaning of the word "give' for crying out loud ).
And I would not have known about this development.
Huh.
Well I guess that pretty much changs quite a bit if it ever comes to fruition
So, let's get back to 28 to 32 conversions.
To me, allowing new players to retool their 28 pointers into 32 Pointers is a no-brainer.

[Borror0]

Strawman? So you did not write about wanting all cost values removed from respecs? Yes or no.

Reduced cost for feats and spells, and increased cost for enhancements. Did you read the thread at all?

[Quanefel]

Reduced cost for feats and spells, and increased cost for enhancements. Did you read the thread at all?

Reduced cost on respecs that barely cost anything at all as it is? How much reduced do you think they need to be that is acceptable to you?

Why even remove dragonshards from feats either? And with a reduced cost and no timer?

How about you pull your ideas into more reasonable terms instead of what would "feel good" to players.

Should NPC trainers be removed as well and just allow all respec to be done on the fly? That is the direction you are heading BorroO. Pull it back some, be reasonable with it.

If they ever bring in the Wish spell, it will pale in comparison to your ideas about respecs. What is more powerful than even a Wish spell, respecs for all at anytime a player wants. Fun?

[bobbryan2]

Reduced cost on respecs that barely cost anything at all as it is? How much reduced do you think they need to be that is acceptable to you?

Why even remove dragonshards from feats either? And with a reduced cost and no timer?

How about you pull your ideas into more reasonable terms instead of what would "feel good" to players.

Should NPC trainers be removed as well and just allow all respec to be done on the fly? That is the direction you are heading BorroO. Pull it back some, be reasonable with it.

If they ever bring in the Wish spell, it will pale in comparison to your ideas about respecs. What is more powerful than even a Wish spell, respecs for all at anytime a player wants. Fun?

That's pretty hilarious... that you think feat respecs don't cost anything...

100 dragonshards for feat respecs at lvl 20. At 5,000 plat for a dragonshard, that's half a million plat +10,000 and 3 day timer for a feat respec.

Would you please tell me that a wish spell in D&D costs 5,000,000 gp with a straight face?

[Borror0]

Reduced cost on respecs that barely cost anything at all as it is?

Since the respecs will be used often, the overall cost will increase.

Therefore, instead of paying 30kpp to change three feats per module maximum, you'll pay a smaller amount more often.

Reduced cost on respecs that barely cost anything at all as it is?

Your argument was that I wanted "all cost values removed", which is blatantly false.

Why even remove dragonshards from feats either?

The idea is that we want the respec to be used more often. Thus, it makes sense to remove the dragonshard cost.

Should NPC trainers be removed as well and just allow all respec to be done on the fly? That is the direction you are heading BorroO.

No it is not the direction that I am going. Please understand my position before making such ridiculous statements about it.