Ability, Skill respecs, 32 point/drow unlocks.

[eonfreon]

There is nothing at all wrong with keeping a 28 point build. My capped wizard is a 28 point build premiere toon. He got to 1750 favor and I deleted all the 2nd level toons I had made and never really played because I enjoy my wizard so much. Now I have a half dozen up-and-coming 32 point/Drow builds that I dont enjoy half as much as my 28 point wizard. There's NOTHING wrong with him. Are his stats as high as they theoretically could be? No, of course not. Do I care? Not in the least because they are as high as I need them to be. I am probably one of the most powerful casters on Argonessen and I didn't need 32 stat points to get there. So quit your whining and just enjoy your characters for what they are. If you want to crunch numbers all day become an accountant.

I don't think anyone said there was anything wrong with your 28 Point Wizard.

[Vorn]

Late arrival--I hate the fact that the primary reward for my 28 point original character getting to 1750 is to be able to roll better characters. I don't mind so much that we have to work to be able to unlock drow or 32 points or whatever. What I hate is that there is no permanent change (beyond a +2 tome which used to be great but aren't so much any more) to the character earning the favor. A much better approach, I thought, was that used in gianthold when the character earning the favor got a handfull of extra HP's.

I wish there was something unique to any 28 pointer that reaches the 1750 favor mark that would make that character the equivalent of the 32 pointer that could now be rolled.

[Kistilan]

Late arrival--I hate the fact that the primary reward for my 28 point original character getting to 1750 is to be able to roll better characters. I don't mind so much that we have to work to be able to unlock drow or 32 points or whatever. What I hate is that there is no permanent change (beyond a +2 tome which used to be great but aren't so much any more) to the character earning the favor. A much better approach, I thought, was that used in gianthold when the character earning the favor got a handfull of extra HP's.

I wish there was something unique to any 28 pointer that reaches the 1750 favor mark that would make that character the equivalent of the 32 pointer that could now be rolled.

I think a good solution to this would be a specialized quest in which 28 pters unlock at 2,000 favor. Upon quest completion an NPC grants 28 pt builds (and only 28 pt builds) an additional +4 to be distributed in a semi-quasi character creation screen.

This isn't a reroll or a respec -- it's a resolution to allow those who can reach endgame with a 28 pt build the exact same opportunity an end-game 32 pt build can reach. The quest in no way should be easy, but the reward for 28 pters is obvious. The quest can also contain favor and experience, thus enticing all users to participate (and help) 28 pters that want to keep their original character.

How to compensate for enhancements/feats etc? I would recommend the computer strip the character of all feats enchantments & enhancements during the 4 pt allocation -- this would allow true recognition of the characters attribute totals and follow-on to his or her racial bonus.

[OnyxBMW]

I think a good solution to this would be a specialized quest in which 28 pters unlock at 2,000 favor. Upon quest completion an NPC grants 28 pt builds (and only 28 pt builds) an additional +4 to be distributed in a semi-quasi character creation screen.

This isn't a reroll or a respec -- it's a resolution to allow those who can reach endgame with a 28 pt build the exact same opportunity an end-game 32 pt build can reach. The quest in no way should be easy, but the reward for 28 pters is obvious. The quest can also contain favor and experience, thus enticing all users to participate (and help) 28 pters that want to keep their original character.

How to compensate for enhancements/feats etc? I would recommend the computer strip the character of all feats enchantments & enhancements during the 4 pt allocation -- this would allow true recognition of the characters attribute totals and follow-on to his or her racial bonus.

The grand irony of this post is, I actually had that exact same solution in my original post.

[Hafeal]

I like this idea. The real symmetry to it, for me, is that it gives a "stroyline" as to why you are getting the increase as well. The OP inferred this idea in his post but did not quite flesh it out as well.

I think a good solution to this would be a specialized quest in which 28 pters unlock at 2,000 favor. Upon quest completion an NPC grants 28 pt builds (and only 28 pt builds) an additional +4 to be distributed in a semi-quasi character creation screen.

This isn't a reroll or a respec -- it's a resolution to allow those who can reach endgame with a 28 pt build the exact same opportunity an end-game 32 pt build can reach. The quest in no way should be easy, but the reward for 28 pters is obvious. The quest can also contain favor and experience, thus enticing all users to participate (and help) 28 pters that want to keep their original character.

How to compensate for enhancements/feats etc? I would recommend the computer strip the character of all feats enchantments & enhancements during the 4 pt allocation -- this would allow true recognition of the characters attribute totals and follow-on to his or her racial bonus.

[Quanefel]

I think you have some fair ideas.

This is my first and only MMO so I had nothing to compare it to.

Once I unlocked Drow and finally 32 Point I eventually deleted all my old 28 Pointers.

I probably would have eventually rerolled anyway because I made many mistakes, even though I "knew" D&D (the old version AD&D- things were quite different even if the concepts are close).

I "worked" on my Favor. I got my "reward" and I deleted all my old toons.
Did I feel obligated to?
No.
But others might feel so.
I did the "work" to get my "reward" and yet I don't feel threatened by the idea of changing the rewards and giving all new players 32 Pointers from the start.

Anyway, arguing about it is useless really.
Make suggestions and hope that some Devs will like it, because I feel all the "QFT", "/Signed", "/Unsigned", and arguments about "entitlement" versus "I had to do it so should you", etc is rather pointless.

"Capitalis" vs "Socialism"?
LOL- Yeah to the VERY UNTRAINED EYE it might appear to have some semblance, but come on.
THe Favor you worked for will still be there, just the reward would be changed for getting that favor, and the old favor reward would become the norm.
As a comparison- remember when you got that 32 Pointer AND unlocked a new slot too (or was it when you unlocked Drow- can't remember), later Turbine took part of that "reward", the unlocked slot, and just gave it to everyone, plus more slots, etc.

Things change. The old "I had to do it so you should too or you're somehow lesser than me" argument is good for a laugh at least.

So for what it's worth:
/Signed to changing the Favor rewards and starting new players with 32 Pointers.

People who disagree with this feel "threatened"? Forgive me if I laugh at that.

"arguing about it is useless really" Would be better summed up as "If you don't agree with this then your thoughts are worthless unless you are lock step with those who agree with it." Ya know, cause its pointless for anyone to disagree with the idea.

Capitialism Vs Socialism?

It might look like it but come on, that's not important here! What's important is Turbine give trophy's to everyone, regardless so no one feels left out of a reward others worked hard for! That's the important thing. We don't want people to feel bad they don't have things others worked hard for, do we? I mean, really those who worked for it should be happy that others will be handed a reward with no work at all for it. THAT is how it should be! It will become the new norm. Others work for it, then hand it out to everyone else later on. ....yay....

What's next? Some players have more in game wealth that needs to be evened out to all newer players as well? To make it "fair" to them of course. Things change, we should all embrass the trophy generation way of thinking...Everyone is equal and we will make everyone equal and why work hard at something when we can have others do it and just hand out the reward of hard work to everyone else later. Love it!

Maybe instead of drow and 32 point status, those that work for this new system can be handed shiny gold stars or anything that will not make those who do not wish to earn it feel bad about not getting the ...new favor rewards. As long as the new rewards are not something anyone would really want.

[Borror0]

The real symmetry to it, for me, is that it gives a "stroyline" as to why you are getting the increase as well.

"Thank you for helping me! You get +4 creation points" is the same as "Thank you for helping me! You get +4 creation points".

[spifflove]

I have rerolled 2 toons with 1750 favor so I don't understand what you are complaining about. If you like your toon keep it if not reroll.

For those of you just joining:

1. Earn drow by making a human pure wizard or sorcerer. You will have no reason to reroll but most of you will because the favor doesnt take that long to make up.

2. With your unlocked drow make a 1 rogue/x cleric with 18 intel and 18 wisdom. Earn your 1750 favor in about a month. Everyone will jump into your elite favor groups and you will only have to run non quest chains one time.

3. unlock you 32 points, collect your free +2 tome (which was made to compensate for 28 point builds) and enjoy the game.

4. You will have fun with your favor run. Many if not most of you will do it again on all of your characters just for the +2 tome.

[Borror0]

What's important is Turbine give trophy's to everyone, regardless so no one feels left out of a reward others worked hard for! That's the important thing. We don't want people to feel bad they don't have things others worked hard for, do we? I mean, really those who worked for it should be happy that others will be handed a reward with no work at all for it.

Blatant straw man.

The OP presented two suggestions:

• Replacing the current rewards with new "juicy" ones
• Allow 28 point buy character into 32 point buy characters

Neither represent "hand[ing] a reward with no work at all for it", in any sort of way.

In the first cases, the players still have to work for their reward. It imply is a new one, which this time does not encourage the players to delete their characters to benefit of the rewards nor encourage them to limit themselves to one character to grind the reward.

The second one does represent less grind, but it is after the players has obtained his reward.

Either way, the logic "I have suffered so you should suffer too" is a poor argument when talking about a video game. A video game is supposed to be fun, and if a feature is needlessly unpleasant, it only makes sense for the game developer to change it into something more fun.

[Borror0]

I have rerolled 2 toons with 1750 favor so I don't understand what you are complaining about.

"I have no problem with it therefore there is no problem" is a very egocentric argument with no value when discussing a video game.

As you know, humans have different preferences and what can be not a problem to you can be really annoying to others.

You will have fun with your favor run. Many if not most of you will do it again on all of your characters just for the +2 tome.

Most players I know hate running favor. I have a guildy who swore he would never run favor again after reaching 1750 favor,

[spifflove]

"I have no problem with it therefore there is no problem" is a very egocentric argument with no value when discussing a video game.

As you know, humans have different preferences and what can be not a problem to you can be really annoying to others.
,

Yes, Spock.

[
Most players I know hate running favor. I have a guildy who swore he would never run favor again after reaching 1750 favor,

No you prefer running loot runs over and over again until you are decked out like a christmas tree. Its not enough to be 28 points with a +4 stat tome in each stat you want 32 with a +4 stat tome in each stat. Whats behind curtain number 2....

[Borror0]

No you prefer running loot runs over and over again until you are decked out like a christmas tree.

Overpowering a level 4 quest on a level 16 is neither challenging nor fun. It's a grind.

[Quanefel]

Blatant straw man.

The OP presented two suggestions:

• Replacing the current rewards with new "juicy" ones
• Allow 28 point buy character into 32 point buy characters

Neither represent "hand[ing] a reward with no work at all for it", in any sort of way.

In the first cases, the players still have to work for their reward. It imply is a new one, which this time does not encourage the players to delete their characters to benefit of the rewards nor encourage them to limit themselves to one character to grind the reward.

The second one does represent less grind, but it is after the players has obtained his reward.

Either way, the logic "I have suffered so you should suffer too" is a poor argument when talking about a video game. A video game is supposed to be fun, and if a feature is needlessly unpleasant, it only makes sense for the game developer to change it into something more fun.

Blantant blah blah, don't you get tired of throwing fallacy terms towards everyone you do not agree with? You'd think after adding your little jabs at people with usage of those words for so long, you would have learned something. I guess not.

The OP offered those two suggestions? Incorrect but that is normal. See, suggestion three which clearly states that 400 and 1750 favor as of now should be GIVEN to all players. It is understandable you want others to glaze over that small detial, make it unimportant so not to stir up and negative responses to it.

If the 400 and 1750 favor is to be removed to be replaced, where is going? How is it going to be transferred over elsewhere if, like you claim....it is not being handed to anyone. So does that mean you want the 1750 and 400 favor rewards we have now to be tossed in the trash OR is it in fact wanted to be handed out to everyone? Which is it? No, I won't expect a straight answer.

Juicy rewards? Why bother. Within months of a new system, you and others will be here again demanding it be handed out to everyone for even newer rewards. And you know it. Some reward that is useless like maybe a gold star? Nothing that anyone would actually want to work to get. Fun!

True, a video game is suppose to be fun but using the tag of "fun" to warrant any change is getting ridiculous. More emotional appeals than logic. If you feel the feature is needlessly unpleasant, don't use it. It really is that simple. Instead, you want Turbine yet again to change the game to fit in your vision of what YOU consider fun, regardless of the unfun it would be to others. But again, something being considered "fun" only applies if you are certain, select people.

[spifflove]

Overpowering a level 4 quest on a level 16 is neither challenging nor fun. It's a grind.

That is true and I don't advocate that. I believe in doing quests at level and running them once (elite) each except high xp chains which I run 3 times (normal, hard, elite). I have a 15th level 1750 favor barbarian who did this and is only 15th level.

Ok not everyone wants to do this but you only need to do it on one toon and getting the favor gives a sense of achievement. My personal belief is it is less grindy when you do not skip content.

As a side perk, you will have a toon that can open quests on elite for your other toons.

[Quanefel]

"I have no problem with it therefore there is no problem" is a very egocentric argument with no value when discussing a video game.

As you know, humans have different preferences and what can be not a problem to you can be really annoying to others.

Most players I know hate running favor. I have a guildy who swore he would never run favor again after reaching 1750 favor,

So you are offended when anyone uses the word "I" in an arguement(egocentric), which you go on to use the personal term "I'" yourself, within the very same post.......funny how that is.

Do as I say, not as I do kinda deal?

[Borror0]

That is true and I don't advocate that. I believe in doing quests at level and running them once (elite) each except high xp chains which I run 3 times (normal, hard, elite). I have a 15th level 1750 favor barbarian who did this and is only 15th level.

The problem is that players get their fun from multiple place:

• Playing with friends
• Improving a character
• Simply running quests

If the first two factors are not of importance to you, it is normal that running favor while leveling up is not much fun to you. The problem is that the two factors, along with the perspective of running painful quests like the Necropolis tombs, outweigh "simply running quests".

Therefore, favor risks to be not all that fun for most players.

[Borror0]

The OP offered those two suggestions? Incorrect but that is normal. See, suggestion three which clearly states that 400 and 1750 favor as of now should be GIVEN to all players.

Suggestion #1 implied this.

See, suggestion three which clearly states that 400 and 1750 favor as of now should be GIVEN to all players.

Misrepresenting the OP's position.

He clearly states that drow should be available when creating a new account and that 32 point buy should be the default from now on, but that there should be rewards to replace the current rewards that are now gone. Therefore, the players still have to work for rewards. Simply different ones.

There is no handing over, unless you are using some backward logic.

No, I won't expect a straight answer.

Good. It would have been silly of you to expect an answer to such a loaded question.

Juicy rewards? Why bother. Within months of a new system, you and others will be here again demanding it be handed out to everyone for even newer rewards. And you know it.

Ad hominem. You are not attacking the argument but the person making the argument. Not a logical argument.

If you feel the feature is needlessly unpleasant, don't use it.

Not using the feature is also unpleasant. Thus, this does not solve the problem.

Instead, you want Turbine yet again to change the game to fit in your vision of what YOU consider fun, regardless of the unfun it would be to others.

How dare a player want the game to be more fun!?

But again, something being considered "fun" only applies if you are certain, select people.

Demonstrate how allowing players to upgrade 28 point buy characters into 32 point buy would negatively affect the gaming experience of anyone.

[spifflove]

The problem is that players get their fun from multiple place:

• Playing with friends
• Improving a character
• Simply running quests

If the first two factors are not of importance to you, it is normal that running favor while leveling up is not much fun to you. The problem is that the two factors, along with the perspective of running painful quests like the Necropolis tombs, outweigh "simply running quests".

Therefore, favor risks to be not all that fun for most players.

You don't need the favor from necro quests [or from saving any elf mummies] to get 1750 favor but you do need to bring your silver flame trinket to the altar of the end quests.

Even Parvo felt a sense of achievement unlocking 32 point builds

[Quanefel]

Suggestion #1 implied this.

Misrepresenting the OP's position.

He clearly states that drow should be available when creating a new account and that 32 point buy should be the default from now on, but that there should be rewards to replace the current rewards that are now gone. Therefore, the players still have to work for rewards. Simply different ones.

There is no handing over, unless you are using some backward logic.

Good. It would have been silly of you to expect an answer to such a loaded question.

Ad hominem. You are not attacking the argument but the person making the argument. Not a logical argument.

Not using the feature is also unpleasant. Thus, this does not solve the problem.

How dare a player want the game to be more fun!?

Demonstrate how allowing players to upgrade 28 point buy characters into 32 point buy would negatively affect the gaming experience of anyone.

Suggestion #1 did not imply what you claim it did.

For me to be misrepresenting the OP, it helps for you to be correct in suggestioning such a thing. Since the OP clearly wrote:

"In summation, I believe the drow, and 32 point builds should be---->GIVEN<---- to everyone, including new people, without needing to do a favor unlock, and that 400 and 1750 favor milestones should be, in fact, replaced with something else that is as good, but doesn't feel "necessary" to a new player coming into the game seeing the 4 point disparity in builds as something imbalancing."

Notice him suggesting the very thing I wrote? Funny how I point out exactly what he writes but you somehow determined he did not state it, when he in fact did. Notice also he is not suggesting this new favor reward system be replaced with something juicy like you are trying to claim throughout this. He in fact is suggesting it be replaced with rewards that while might be "good", just as long as they don't feel "necessary" to any new player.

How long will it take for even that new reward be demanded for free? I personally give it 2 months.

Backward logic to think that "given" is another term for handing over? Really? Question, what is YOUR personal definition of the word "given"? I am curious of that gem.

Ad h...blah blah, that is what I am getting from that statement.

Using and not using the feature is both unpleasant? Sounds like some will not be happy not matter what, almost schizophrenic.

So giving players something that others worked for is "fun" or just an emotional appeal in hopes no one can really argue against it? Attach the word "fun" to an arguement, how can anyone be against it? I get it, trust me.

If I had an interest or was even discussing 28 to 32 point builds, I might humor you and demonstrate any negative side effect from it. Any more distractions you care to throw at me?

Back to your "fun" idea. I think it would be a hoot to have you give me every coin and every peice of loot in your bank and on all your toons. So, when should I expect all these things from you? You want to insure I have fun, right? Step up and walk the walk.

[eonfreon]

People who disagree with this feel "threatened"? Forgive me if I laugh at that.

"arguing about it is useless really" Would be better summed up as "If you don't agree with this then your thoughts are worthless unless you are lock step with those who agree with it." Ya know, cause its pointless for anyone to disagree with the idea.

Capitialism Vs Socialism?

It might look like it but come on, that's not important here! What's important is Turbine give trophy's to everyone, regardless so no one feels left out of a reward others worked hard for! That's the important thing. We don't want people to feel bad they don't have things others worked hard for, do we? I mean, really those who worked for it should be happy that others will be handed a reward with no work at all for it. THAT is how it should be! It will become the new norm. Others work for it, then hand it out to everyone else later on. ....yay....

What's next? Some players have more in game wealth that needs to be evened out to all newer players as well? To make it "fair" to them of course. Things change, we should all embrass the trophy generation way of thinking...Everyone is equal and we will make everyone equal and why work hard at something when we can have others do it and just hand out the reward of hard work to everyone else later. Love it!

Maybe instead of drow and 32 point status, those that work for this new system can be handed shiny gold stars or anything that will not make those who do not wish to earn it feel bad about not getting the ...new favor rewards. As long as the new rewards are not something anyone would really want.

Nah, make any point you want, it's a free country. I was mostly talking to Borr, because he likes to point out errors in people's logic. And he's wasting his time using reason here.
And it's just not important enough to argue about.
I understand your argument.
It is:
We had to do it so should everyone.
It's a simple concept and it is pointless to argue with you about it.
It's your opinion and you're entitled to it.
Never once did I say it was "pointless for anyone to disagree with the idea."
And the silly "Capitalism Vs Socialism" concept that came up was not mine, I just had to laugh at the innate silliness of such an argument.
"We had to do it so everyone should" is at least a far superior argument to any reference to Capitalism vs Socialism, so kudos for that.