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  1. #401
    Community Member Quanefel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azdraugnor View Post
    The average LEVEL SIXTEEN quest or raid is run on normal, not elite. Don't forget lower level characters, who are often newer players who have damaged their character by building them improperly.
    Having at will respecs will not prevent them from making the same mistakes over and over. Having a yeild sign left in place to guide them to start understanding what they are doing which is essence what a timer and plat price does.

    Think of it as a "Whoa there big guy, ya sure you wanna do that?" with a timer. It makes a person want to think twice and maybe plan things out better.
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  2. #402

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quanefel View Post
    Think of it as a "Whoa there big guy, ya sure you wanna do that?" with a timer. It makes a person want to think twice and maybe plan things out better.
    That does not make any sense.

    Having to wait to try something else will make someone learn slower, not faster. Having a timer will not make someone more clever, in any way. If someone does not know if a feat, enhancement, skill or feat is good, he will not suddenly gain more knowledge because more if there is a timer.
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  3. #403
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quanefel View Post
    The average quest or raid is run on normal, not elite. Trying to suggest otherwise is false.

    Every aspect is not being dictated? I am thinking that asking someone to change out a PrE is not some simple process or even desired by the person playing that character. I am under the impression that changing out any PrE to suit the needs of some random player involves meeting the requirements for that new PrE.

    If we change out a PrE within one class, does that not require us to change out some feats and enchantments? I think the answer is a resounding yes. If my gear and playstyle is also tied into the PrE that I have decided on, is that party leader willing to pay for new equiptment on the spot if it is needed for a new PrE decided upon by that party leader?

    Is that party leader also willing to pay the fee for all the respecs associated for each of the 11 other players in a raid or the 5 other players in a quest prior to starting? Will he further pay for those players respecs as needed afterwards to bring them back to where they were before joing that group as well?

    Are we to further assume that the party leader has any idea what he is even talking about with other players builds? Are we to have blind faith that party leader knows whats best for US? Are all players willing to wait it out for everyone made to change out their chracters with respecs to fit the needs of the person with the star? Is any player from that point being allowed a choice in their own build or do certian select players get to decide what we play and how we make our own characters?

    Who left these people in charge of our accounts? Are they willing to pay for our accounts so they can have say in what we do with our characters?

    Maybe it is true that to you it makes sense for a player to remake their paladin from one PrE to DoS but...you are not paying for their account, are you? Why should the respec cost in fees to leveed on the person being made to change and not the person who demands it? To you, this is all just gravy?
    I hear where you are coming from, we have yet to fully experience the PRE's and we'll see if disparity in power will have an impact.
    As far as the scenarios you and I presented, it will already be possible to occur as soon as Mod 9 finally hits.
    Think about it.
    Currently it costs some plat (don't know how much, but that shows how little it is because I don't notice) and a 3 day timer to change enhancements.
    The PRE's are coded as enhancement.
    Therefore as long as I meet the requirements I can change "at whim".
    Therefore if someone requests it, and I'm willing to, I can "currentlY" (when Mod 9 goes Live) go from Hunter to KoTC.
    OR...
    I can lie.

    Same scenario as I discribed- I join Shroud, they ask me if I'm KotC or not.
    I don't want/can't.
    I realize that they will exclude me/
    I decide between:
    A) admitting I can't/won't change
    B)Don't Admit I can't/won't change

    These are extreme cases, but currently, as the rules stand, both our scenarios are de facto quite possible.

    In other words, yes, what Quanafel and I described can, and may very well happen if we take certain things as accepted:
    1)That there are always "Leaders" who "discriminate".
    2)That micromanaging is something that many people employ on their OWN characters quite enough and it will be up to each individual "Member" if he will abide by the leader's dictates, or if he'll even respect the leader enough to bother telling the truth, especially if his belief in his own ability for a particular task is such that he dismisses some or all of his "leader's" misgivings.

    As a simple example:
    I have a TWF Dex Build Pally/Monk/Fighter.
    His DPS is -2 what a similarly built (in most cases) Strength Based TWF Pally/Monk/Fighter.
    I have my reasons for going Dex and I don't regret it (didn't waste Str either- wound up with a 24- Str build version winds up with 28 Str, both accounting for +2 Tomes, etc..).
    The point is, I know that if anyone asks me my strength I better say 28 and not 24, because to some people, that matters a lot.
    And to me, knowing my own capabilities, I know what I can do, and I wouldn't even think of joining a group that I din't think I could contribute to.
    Still, I KNOW that the answer to "what is your Strength?" is "28 +.
    Yes, I'm a baaaad man.
    Last edited by eonfreon; 05-24-2009 at 02:12 AM.

  4. #404
    Community Member Azdraugnor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quanefel View Post
    Having at will respecs will not prevent them from making the same mistakes over and over. Having a yeild sign left in place to guide them to start understanding what they are doing which is essence what a timer and plat price does.

    Think of it as a "Whoa there big guy, ya sure you wanna do that?" with a timer. It makes a person want to think twice and maybe plan things out better.
    Having at-will respecs will let people test out abilities to see if they fit their builds.

    Furthermore, as Borror0 said, adding a timer doesn't help people understand whether or not the feat/enhancement/skill is worthwhile. It only discourages testing and overly punished mistakes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Krag View Post
    Obviously, nobody is allowed to move until the cleric is out of mana and the buff fest is finally over.

  5. #405
    Community Member Quanefel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
    I hear where you are coming from, we have yet to fully experience the PRE's and we'll see if disparity in power will have an impact.
    As far as the scenarios you and I presented, it will already be possible to occur as soon as Mod 9 finally hits.
    Think about it.
    Currently it costs some plat (don't know how much, but that shows how little it is because I don't notice) and a 3 day timer to change enhancements.
    The PRE's are coded as enhancement.
    Therefore as long as I meet the requirements I can change "at whim".
    Therefore if someone requests it, and I'm willing to, I can "currentlY" (when Mod 9 goes Live) go from Hunter to KoTC.
    OR...
    I can lie.

    Same scenario as I discribed- I join Shroud, they ask me if I'm KotC or not.
    I don't want/can't.
    I realize that they will exclude me/
    I decide between:
    A) admitting I can't/won't change
    B)Don't Admit I can't/won't change

    These are extreme cases, but currently, as the rules stand, both our scenarios are de facto quite possible.

    In other words, yes, what Quanafel and I described can, and may very well happen if we take certain things as accepted:
    1)That there are always "Leaders" who "discriminate".
    2)That micromanaging is something that many people employ on their OWN characters quite enough and it will be up to each individual "Member" if he will abide by the leader's dictates, or if he'll even respect the leader enough to bother telling the truth, especially if his belief in his own ability for a particular task is such that he dismisses some or all of his "leader's" misgivings.

    As a simple example:
    I have a TWF Dex Build Pally/Monk/Fighter.
    His DPS is -2 what a similarly built (in most cases) Strength Based TWF Pally/Monk/Fighter.
    I have my reasons for going Dex and I don't regret it (didn't waste Str either- wound up with a 24- Str build version winds up with 28 Str, both accounting for +2 Tomes, etc..).
    The point is, I know that if anyone asks me my strength I better say 28 and not 24, because to some people, that matters a lot.
    And to me, knowing my own capabilities, I know what I can do, and I wouldn't even think of joining a group that I din't think I could contribute to.
    Still, I KNOW that the answer to "what is your Strength?" is "28 +.
    Yes, I'm a baaaad man.
    No, the timer prevents that from happening. You are also forgetting something, PrE's might be enchantments but most if not all require certian feats. Not an easy task. Nor should anyone have to constantly remake their character at the wishes of some other random player. Its flat out rude. If any of us make a character the way we want are now required to changing on a daily basis just to "fit in" from the wishes of one person, it is no longer OUR character. Is it? It then becomes an empty template dependant of the desires of someone not paying for our accounts. We pay they, we get to play our characters how we wish.

    Yes, you could lie. If you are the type that comes easily too. Others, lying is not so easy nor who they are. In fact, some have no problem telling someone off who thinks they can tell that person how to build a character. I am the latter. I do not even tell my own guild mates how to make their characters and I am the guild leader. I offer advice when asked but tell them? Never.

    Think of the shouting matches in party now about character builds? I can only imagine if it is easy to respec and party leaders try dictating to independant players what to do with their builds. And all for what? Some players desire to micromanage everything? No thanks.
    Last edited by Quanefel; 05-24-2009 at 02:44 AM.
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  6. #406
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azdraugnor View Post
    Having at-will respecs will let people test out abilities to see if they fit their builds.

    Furthermore, as Borror0 said, adding a timer doesn't help people understand whether or not the feat/enhancement/skill is worthwhile. It only discourages testing and overly punished mistakes.
    Here's a very simple "at-will" respec I often take "advantage" of to maximize my fun:
    As most know we have a Free One-Time Feat Swap, with no timer, no cost, simple 1 minute quest- the "DragonMark" quest.
    Of late, I've really planned out my characters. Offline planner and all. I know where and when I'm gonna spend each and every point and why (and I'll still make mistakes LOL).
    So I'm building a new TWF Pally- Str Build this time 18 levels with 2 Rogue for Intimidate and UMD and Evasion.
    Got him locked down, ready to gear up when I feel like it (no rush - still doing fine with my Kothos starter Ember Great Axe)
    Anyway, he's 4th level Human- he'll eventually have TWF and PA as his first Feats (already got the Dex req taken care of) but Right now I'm using Cleave.
    Why?
    Because TWF is not of any true benefit right now, I go THF or S&B until later, and Cleave is FUN.
    Not USEFUL just FUN.
    Primarily I use it to smash boxes, but it even has some "tactical" value; some MOBS have such low "one-hit wonder" type of HPs that I can actually line up and kill 5 Kobolds at once!!
    LOL
    I know I'm wasting a Free Exchange this way, and maybe I'll regret it later, although on this guy I highly doubt it.
    Point is; he's so tightly planned for his "future" that I'm very happy I have a little leeway at the beginning of his "life".
    Thanks to the simple addition of that Dragonmark Quest I am given a little more freedom, a little more "testing" time.

  7. #407

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    Quote Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
    Thanks to the simple addition of that Dragonmark Quest I am given a little more freedom, a little more "testing" time.
    I wait 'till I'm capped to do that quest. Instead, I use the huge collection of dragonshards that I have to respec continually while I level up.
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  8. #408
    Community Member Quanefel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azdraugnor View Post
    Having at-will respecs will let people test out abilities to see if they fit their builds.

    Furthermore, as Borror0 said, adding a timer doesn't help people understand whether or not the feat/enhancement/skill is worthwhile. It only discourages testing and overly punished mistakes.
    They can still test out their builds with a timer in place. No one is being punished for mistakes on their character either.

    Yes a timer helps. If you have 3 days to rethink something you did, you are learning to avoid that mistake. If you have it at will, there is nothing to stop you or slow you down from making the same mistakes over and over again.

    In that 3 days you can ask others or go research things better with that timer over your head to help slow you down to think things through. Remove the timer, why would anyone need to think at that point when they can just go and respec over and over again? Not learning a damned thing.
    Proud Leader of the Shadowhand.

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  9. #409

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quanefel View Post
    And all for what? Some players desire to micromanage everything? No thanks.
    Let's assume, for a second, that someone wants to micromanage.

    Without "at-will" respecs:
    • The player can't join the group.

    With "at-will" respecs:
    • The players decides to not join the group
    • The players decides that respeccing is not that much of a cost to get into the group

    Sorry, I feel to see how having choice is a bad thing.
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  10. #410
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quanefel View Post
    No, the timer prevents that from happening.
    No, actually the timer itself does NOT prevent this from happening.
    I agree with the rest of what you say, but let's be clear, the timer is equal to "a requirement I may or may not meet".
    When I say I can't/won't:
    Can't = Am on-timer and/or don't have the money.
    Won't = Am off-timer and do have the money, but simply won't because of whatever reason.

    The scenarios you and I both describe are completely plausible and quite possible given the rules as they seem to extend to PRE.

    I can tell you that I can very EASILY qualify for all 3 PRE's on ANY PALADIN I CREATE, past or present.
    THe rest I don't know because paladins is my thing atm, so I've done "research" so to speak.
    The Devs were careful to leave it open enough, even if expensive in the case of certain builds to change.
    Which is both a blessing and a curse.
    For instance, it is MUCh harder for a Tempest Ranger and Arcane Archer to switch out PRE's than a PAladin.
    And really, I'm gonna shut up before I inadvertantly create a cry for "nerfs" LOL.

  11. #411

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quanefel View Post
    If you have 3 days to rethink something you did, you are learning to avoid that mistake. If you have it at will, there is nothing to stop you or slow you down from making the same mistakes over and over again.

    In that 3 days you can ask others or go research things better with that timer over your head to help slow you down to think things through. Remove the timer, why would anyone need to think at that point when they can just go and respec over and over again? Not learning a damned thing.
    That's absurd. As if a player would simply respec because he can. Chances are that if a player thinks there is nothing wrong with his builds, he won't bother respeccing.

    You're grasping straws.
    Last edited by Borror0; 05-24-2009 at 02:52 AM.
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  12. #412
    Community Member Quanefel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    Let's assume, for a second, that someone wants to micromanage.

    Without "at-will" respecs:
    • The player can't join the group.

    With "at-will" respecs:
    • The players decides to not join the group
    • The players decides that respeccing is not that much of a cost to get into the group

    Sorry, I feel to see how having choice is a bad thing.
    To you those two choices are going to be fun for others based off the egotistical needs of the party leader? Really?

    1) Either respecc out on the whims of another player each quest or raid you go in or....
    2) Be denied entrance based off some abstract notion that someone else who is not paying for your account getting to decide on your character build.

    Fun, eh? And you...see no problem with this at all. Good to know.

    Without "at will" respecs players can't join groups? LFM's are going unfilled right now without it? I am almost positive they are.

    Since there is no At will respec now, are you in parties asking players to respec out properly before joining and if so, how is that working out for you?
    Last edited by Quanefel; 05-24-2009 at 02:55 AM.
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  13. #413
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quanefel View Post
    They can still test out their builds with a timer in place. No one is being punished for mistakes on their character either.

    Yes a timer helps. If you have 3 days to rethink something you did, you are learning to avoid that mistake. If you have it at will, there is nothing to stop you or slow you down from making the same mistakes over and over again.

    In that 3 days you can ask others or go research things better with that timer over your head to help slow you down to think things through. Remove the timer, why would anyone need to think at that point when they can just go and respec over and over again? Not learning a damned thing.
    Or I just don't play for 3 days and come back when I can very well do as I please.
    Timers on Feat respecs are stupid.
    Sorry, but that's the way I feel, the more I think about it.
    I know I know timers force us to play at the "pace" the devs want.
    But it's just stupid in this case.

    I know it's an extreme case.
    Most would just say "fine I'll play something else or simply deal with my Feats as is until I can finally change".
    But it does leave that Elephant in the Room.
    You know, the fact that all you have to do is stop playing and "have a little patience" and in 3 days, you can magically do what you WANTED TO DO 3 DAYS AGO.

    Just tossing that out there .

  14. #414

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quanefel View Post
    To you those two choices are going to be fun for others based off the egotistical needs of the party leader? Really?
    Well, that is up to the player to decide.

    If he prefers respeccing over finding a group that will let him in, he will indeed be having more fun.
    Quote Originally Posted by Quanefel View Post
    Without "at will" respecs players can't join groups? LFM's are going unfilled right now without it? I am almost positive they are.
    If you run into a "micromanager", your only choice right now is to not join the group.

    Therefore, the situation with at-will respec is superior because you have the choice to pick the best outcome.
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  15. #415

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    Quote Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
    Timers on Feat respecs are stupid.
    I agree, with the exception of Favored Enemy. That one would be overpowered without, and thus would have to be an exception.
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  16. #416
    Community Member Quanefel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
    Or I just don't play for 3 days and come back when I can very well do as I please.
    Timers on Feat respecs are stupid.
    Sorry, but that's the way I feel, the more I think about it.
    I know I know timers force us to play at the "pace" the devs want.
    But it's just stupid in this case.

    I know it's an extreme case.
    Most would just say "fine I'll play something else or simply deal with my Feats as is until I can finally change".
    But it does leave that Elephant in the Room.
    You know, the fact that all you have to do is stop playing and "have a little patience" and in 3 days, you can magically do what you WANTED TO DO 3 DAYS AGO.

    Just tossing that out there .
    Do you only have one character to play in those three days? Is three days preventing you from playing that character? If someone is needing to change out feats many times before 3 days are up.....is that person knowing what he is even doing?

    If you want a blank slate character slot without that character being...a character that we designed then more power to you. I want the character I make to remain exactly how "I" decide to make him.
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  17. #417

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quanefel View Post
    [...] is that person knowing what he is even doing?
    Yes, in fact, he is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Quanefel View Post
    I want the character I make to remain exactly how "I" decide to make him.
    Then don't use respecs.
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  18. #418
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quanefel View Post

    Since there is no At will respec now, are you in parties asking players to respec out properly before joining and if so, how is that working out for you?
    That's just it:
    There are at will respecs now, just to a lesser extent.

    At the moment, if I want I can change to get better saves, better ac, better spot, better whatever I want to spend Action Points on so long as I have enough money and am off timer.
    THe fact that there is no DEMAND for it is because it is minor.
    However, as the Enhancements are getting a major boost, the very thing you say can't happen, can.
    And yes, it will be up to every individual if he wants to "follow the leader" and do as requested/demanded.
    Heck, it's little different then:

    Join Shroud run by a good buddy on my Pally.
    "Hey bro, wat's up, thanks, getting close to 20/40/60 etc. on this toon"
    "Hey hey man, great to see ya!! Oh yeah, that close eh. Well.... man, I was hoping you'd get your Ranger. Would that be cool?"
    "Ohhhh man...... (thinks about it and the suspense ends when he either says "srry dude, only enough time for one Raid, want to get this guy in, I see another LFM for Shroud, seeya Bro." OR "Yeah sure, why not. BRB."
    Or I can "finangle" my way in- if I'm convinced we can do it, maybe I can convince the leader, etc

    OR my Pally/Rogue gets into any random group looking for a specific skillset:
    "Hey man, can your Pally/Rogue do traps?"
    "Nope sorry, just for Evasion, UMD and Intimidate, no Trapsmith or other Rogue Skills, I need a key to open doors too LOL."
    "Darn, we really need a Rogue for these traps, rest of us don't got Evasion, etc..."
    "No Prob, good luck, if you can't find a Rogue look me up, I got some ideas how I may be able to get you guys through alive, my Evasion will at least allow me to "detect" all the traps for you at least so you can see where to dodge."
    "Okay thanks, sorry agian."
    "no worries"
    Drops group.

  19. #419
    Community Member Quanefel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    Well, that is up to the player to decide.

    If he prefers respeccing over finding a group that will let him in, he will indeed be having more fun.

    If you run into a "micromanager", your only choice right now is to not join the group.

    Therefore, the situation with at-will respec is superior because you have the choice to pick the best outcome.
    No, it is not up to the player to decide. I don't think you understand the idea of free will. If someone is dictating to others then it is that person with the problem or the one trying to call the shots. If a person does not give in, he has a choice in the matter? No, his choice is being decided for him by the micromanager.

    If he PREFERS respeccing? How can someone prefer something he has no wish to do? How can a player be having fun by playing by the playstyle of the micromanager leader? How exactly? Maybe he just don't know he is having fun yet, maybe that is it eh?

    The choice to pick the best outcome in a situation that should never come into place? When is the person who dicatates going to be held responsible ever for trying to make people do things against their wills? You are just making excuses for this type of behaviour now. Not suprising really.
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  20. #420
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    I agree, with the exception of Favored Enemy. That one would be overpowered without, and thus would have to be an exception.
    There's always gotta be an exception to prove the rule, dontchaknow.

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