Ability, Skill respecs, 32 point/drow unlocks.

[Borror0]

No one is being encouraged or anything of the sort to get a 32 point build.

False. If a player is going to reroll all of his 28 point buy characters into 32 point buy characters, the most efficient way is to only play a character until 1750 is obtained (or roll a character until 400 is obtained, then use a drow to reach 1750 favor).

Therefore, players are encouraged to play only one character.

So let's stop pretending anyone is limited to one character for this, it is false. Flat out false.

One again, I highly suggested you to open a dictionary and look the definition of the verb "to encourage".

If someone does decide to reroll a 28 point build into a 32 point build, that is their choice.

While that is true, it is an incorrect way way to look at it.

As previously mentioned, the two choices are:

• Deleting a character to take advantage of the reward on that character, thereby losing all progress previously made on that character
• Not deleting the character but accepting that the character will never be as good as could be

Neither of those two choices are fun to make.

It is a lose/lose situation. The character gets to pick the less unpleasant situation.

There are plenty of people who still have their original 28 point builds who disagree with any assertion that those characters are somehow...not as good as a 32 point builds.

32 point buy characters are factually better than 28 point buy characters.

Whether they are better enough to warrant is a reroll is a different topic but to say that 32 point buy character not better is simply false.

It would be illogical and dishonest to take something I am writing about and making into a whole differerent arguement that I was not making. I am pointing out that the OP wants Drow and 32 poit builds to be given to everyone and you go off on some other direction then claim that other assertion YOU made up for me is illogical?

Let me explain.

The affirmation you made was a straw man, or at the least illogical. You claimed that the OP does not want there to be favor rewards, when he clearly stated in the OP that he did not want to take away from favor rewards but simply change what the reward is because the current rewards have a negative effect on gameplay.

[DSC]

A character not being "as good as could be" is an opinion.

Really? Saying a 28-point build is not as good as a 32-point build is an opinion? Is having $28,000 as good as having $32,000?

Seriously, you can claim that the difference between them isn't large (true in most cases, less true in some), but it's ridiculous to claim that it doesn't exist.

[Omega2K]

Skill Respec


Now, skills are, as I said, a bit trickier. The problem with this is, there are a lot of variables. And, by a lot, I mean a veritable plethora of variables to consider, from class at the time, to int score (including classes like a wizard, who raise their int while leveling), etc.

Doing a flat wipe of points and then allowing you to redistribute them as you please is just asking for trouble and shouldn't be considered as is. It can be done with a -pure- class, and get away with it, even a wizard, just refund your total skill points and let you redistribute them as you please.

But, that only works for pure classes. What about multiclasses?

Well, this depends on some important key pieces of information. Does the database know what class you are at what level? Does it know what your base int is at any level, especially for if you raise your int at 4, 8, 12, and 16?

If it has these 2 pieces of data, as well as the ability to do the respec properly (there will be some work required to do this, period, for interface, bug testing, etc, it's not as easy as I word this at all), then I feel it is more than possible to allow skill respecs. It will NOT be the ideal solution, but it will be possible and practical.

How will it work? Essentially, you wipe the skill points of the character -entirely-, and then literally run him through a model of how he leveled in 1 form per level.

You get 4*(class mod+int) skills at level 1, then 1 for your class mod/int mod as you progress from form to form, shifting the form to mirror how the character existed at X level.

I do not know how tomes work, or if they count towards skill points, but I assume they do not, so I will ignore them for now. But essentially, if at level 1 through 4, you were a fighter, then you will get a fighter skill form, with skill points being redistributed to you as if you were level 1, 2, 3, and 4. Then, say you went monk (build viability is pointless, just using choices as an example), it would shift to the monk skill form, assigning the proper monk-allowed skills+int mod, and then if you went back to fighter at 6, then it'd bring that one back, and continue as is, exactly as if you were leveling your character for the first time. (obviously ignoring feats/abilities, but that's aside the point)

This, I feel, is an acceptable workaround to the problem of respeccing skills. I do not know if it is viable, how long it would take to design, build, test, retest, stress test, etc, but it logically makes sense. However, it all depends on how DDO is built, what the devs are willing to do, and how practical it is to add considering the demand for content. I cannot answer these questions, and don't know code well enough to say with any certainty how viable it is, but it logically, to me, makes sense.

As far as Multi-Class Characters' Class Level-up Order, Fred knows so therefore Turbine knows. Who's Fred you ask? Why he's the mindflayer in House J that exchanges your Feats.

As far as when you ate INT Tomes or took INT for Ability Point Increases at 4, 8, 12, and/or 16, I am not sure if Turbine knows that entirely. So if Turbine is planning a Skill Point Respec, they just need to pony up the whole kit and kaboodle - give us Skill Points based on current INT Bonus with Tomes but not Worn Items or Action Point Enhancements. Then Skill Points are assigned for each Class Level-up in order from the beginning.

Tomes do count towards Skill Points. Why do you think a +2 INT Tome is so valuble to a Level 1 Character? Because he or she will get an additional Skill Point per Level-up from Level 2 to Cap.

Oh and you forgot that Character Race plays a factor as well. Humans get Four Extra Skill Points during Character Creation and One Extra Skill Point per Level-up.

[Quanefel]

False. If a player is going to reroll all of his 28 point buy characters into 32 point buy characters, the most efficient way is to only play a character until 1750 is obtained (or roll a character until 400 is obtained, then use a drow to reach 1750 favor).

Therefore, players are encouraged to play only one character.
One again, I highly suggested you to open a dictionary and look the definition of the verb "to encourage".
While that is true, it is an incorrect way way to look at it.

As previously mentioned, the two choices are:

• Deleting a character to take advantage of the reward on that character, thereby losing all progress previously made on that character
• Not deleting the character but accepting that the character will never be as good as could be

Neither of those two choices are fun to make.

It is a lose/lose situation. The character gets to pick the less unpleasant situation.

32 point buy characters are factually better than 28 point buy characters.

Whether they are better enough to warrant is a reroll is a different topic but to say that 32 point buy character not better is simply false.

Let me explain.

The affirmation you made was a straw man, or at the least illogical. You claimed that the OP does not want there to be favor rewards, when he clearly stated in the OP that he did not want to take away from favor rewards but simply change what the reward is because the current rewards have a negative effect on gameplay.

Ah, see, Now we are getting somewhere. To you it is more "efficient" so therefore you have basically decided for others what is encouraged to do with this. Then there are many others who could care less about what you think is more effiecient and simply roll up however many characters they want when getting 1750 favor. Like I did, and I still play the 2 characters I rolled up as I was getting 1750 favor the first chracter. I am not the only one.

Instead of me looking up the word "encourage", perhaps you can look up the word "only"?

Oh, while what I wrote is true...it is not the "right" way to look at it? I believe I will stick to looking at things rather than someone else telling me how to look at things.

Even so, what is the word used when someone gives out two choices when there are many more to pick from? I am sure you know the word. If those two choices were in fact the only choices, you may have something but you refuse to acknowledge any choice if it does not fit the "unfun" idea.

32 point builds are factually better? Sorry, that is not what you originally wrote and not what I was I was talking about. You were talking about 28 point builds not being "as good as" 32 point builds. Now you shift your position slightly and avoid your own words for a new set of words? Factually better. Stick with what is written and please avoid redefining things like that.

No, let ME explain.

I made no assurtion about the OP wanting to replace the 400/1750 favor system so just stop doing that. The OP made it clear he wanted drow and 32 point builds to be GIVEN to all players. THAT is in fact what I have been writing about that YOU keep on wanting to change into some other topic and then make remarks how wrong I am.....about something I was not even talking about in the first place. Get out of defensive mode and listen to what I am saying and stop redifining what I write so you can destroy your own made up arguement but attach it to me.

And please explain how our reward system has a negative effect on gameplay? Less emotional appeals this time, please.

[JakLee7]

28vs32 - My first character is a Paladin, not very well made, but not a total gimp. Part of that is due to not understanding Turbines way of making quests (as opposed to PnP version) and certian abilities are underused or never used. Even though I have been able to gradually lessen those mistakes there were points spent that will not help with my current build in most situations. And she is 28pts on top of that.....

I won't delete her as I enjoy playing her & I have slowly collected some pretty nice gear over the course of time. Would I like a full respec option or a bump to 32 - yes. Do I believe either will happen - No.

I think it would actually be easier on Turbine's part to allow us more character slots for character creation and lower the 32pt build buy in (yes I still think its smart to do so, for a few reasons) to 400, then expand the favor rewards where there are roughly 6 rewards for pure favor (without removing any of the house rewards) at 400pt intervals (ie 400, 800,1200, ect) and have it increase as more total favor becomes available.

I was a proponant of adding another jump to 34 pt; but after reading some things I here I realize that some people feel slighted on building 28pt characters & then "having" to start all over to build a "better" character when they unlock 32. Maybe then a high favor reward can unlock a +2 tome at creation that can be used before level 1.

Anyways.... I think we should have respec options, I think we should have more character slots (that is one of the great things about this game, the options to create interesting characters), more favor rewards, and since I am asking for it all, I would like more quests of ALL levels as well.

[Borror0]

To you it is more "efficient" so therefore you have basically decided for others what is encouraged to do with this.

Many humans tend to prefer the straight line over the curve. Therefore, yes, efficiency is a good incentive.

Like I did, and I still play the 2 characters I rolled up as I was getting 1750 favor the first chracter. I am not the only one.

"The world is not centered around you" would be an appropriated reply to such a egocentric comment.

It is not because it does not have an effect on you that everyone else thinks the same.

Instead of me looking up the word "encourage", perhaps you can look up the word "only"?

Let's look at the sentence in question, shall we?

The problem is not that I have to grind favor, the problem is that players are encouraged to only play a character and then encouraged to delete all previously existing characters to be able to take advantage of the newly obtained reward, invalidating all the time they have invested previously (with the exception of the time put to reach 1750 favor).

For clarity, the important passage is "the problem is that players are encouraged to only play a character" in which only refers to one ans thus the sentence is meant to be read as "players are encouraged to play a single character rather than many" as later explained.

However, the misunderstanding seems to stem from the word encourage, used to explain that the current design acts as an incentive to play only one character, rather than many, until the player has unlocked 32 point buy. It is important to note that I used "to encourage" rather than "to force" because the intent was to show that the current design bias the choice but does not limit choices.

An example of design that does not encouraging players to play a single character until 32 point buy is unlocked would be a system where all characters would be 28 point buy at creation and would have to reach 1750 total favor to be able to upgrade from 28 point buy to 32 point buy.

Even so, what is the word used when someone gives out two choices when there are many more to pick from?

I would have said false dichotomy or false dilemma, but both of these are composed of two words and thus would not meet your criteria.

Nor would either apply here, so clearly neither are not what you are looking for.

If those two choices were in fact the only choices, you may have something but you refuse to acknowledge any choice if it does not fit the "unfun" idea.

List the other pleasant choices. Objection is not refutation.

32 point builds are factually better? Sorry, that is not what you originally wrote and not what I was I was talking about. You were talking about 28 point builds not being "as good as" 32 point builds. Now you shift your position slightly and avoid your own words for a new set of words? Factually better. Stick with what is written and please avoid redefining things like that.

Follow the syllogism:
1. 32 point buy characters are factually better than 28 point buy characters
2. A 28 point buy character can never upgrade to 32 point buy character
3. Therefore, a 28 point buy character "will never be as good as could be"

I made no assurtion about the OP wanting to replace the 400/1750 favor system so just stop doing that.

Correct, except that is not what I accused you of. I accused you of making the false accusation that the OP wanted to remove favor rewards.

Clearly, if he wants to replace the rewards he does not want to remove them.

And please explain how our reward system has a negative effect on gameplay?

As outlined many times in this thread already, it forces players into a lose/lose situation.

[Quanefel]

Many humans tend to prefer the straight line over the curve. Therefore, yes, efficiency is a good incentive.

"The world is not centered around you" would be an appropriated reply to such a egocentric comment.

It is not because it does not have an effect on you that everyone else thinks the same.

Let's look at the sentence in question, shall we?
For clarity, the important passage is "the problem is that players are encouraged to only play a character" in which only refers to one ans thus the sentence is meant to be read as "players are encouraged to play a single character rather than many" as later explained.

However, the misunderstanding seems to stem from the word encourage, used to explain that the current design acts as an incentive to play only one character, rather than many, until the player has unlocked 32 point buy. It is important to note that I used "to encourage" rather than "to force" because the intent was to show that the current design bias the choice but does not limit choices.

An example of design that does not encouraging players to play a single character until 32 point buy is unlocked would be a system where all characters would be 28 point buy at creation and would have to reach 1750 total favor to be able to upgrade from 28 point buy to 32 point buy.

I would have said false dichotomy or false dilemma, but both of these are composed of two words and thus would not meet your criteria.

Nor would either apply here, so clearly neither are not what you are looking for.

List the other pleasant choices. Objection is not refutation.

Follow the syllogism:
1. 32 point buy characters are factually better than 28 point buy characters
2. A 28 point buy character can never upgrade to 32 point buy character
3. Therefore, a 28 point buy character "will never be as good as could be"

Correct, except that is not what I accused you of. I accused you of making the false accusation that the OP wanted to remove favor rewards.

Clearly, if he wants to replace the rewards he does not want to remove them.

As outlined many times in this thread already, it forces players into a lose/lose situation.

Many humans to my knowledge think and act differently. Someday I am sure people will pick up on that small detail.

Egocentric comment? Anyone can use personal experience as an example. I am sure you know that so there was no need to even make that comment about me. Also, me remarking that "I am not the only one" is not egocentric. It suggests that hey, there are other people out there also who made and still have there original 28 point builds and other characters they leveled up at the same time. Imagine that!

I know, it does not sit well with your assertion that the ONLY way to get 1750 favor is making one, and only one character. Logic says you are flat out wrong in your assertion.

So you do know what the term I was referring to about offering only 2 choices when there are many. And instead of admitting you used it, you try to wiggle your way out of it. Semantics at it's finest.

For the love of the Sovereign Host stop suggesting I was making an assertion about the OP. You keep going back my original post in this thread that was in fact...a question. It is not an accusation or an assertion. It is a question.

I do not care that 32 point builds are "factually better" nor do I give a rat's behind on the OP, you or others wanting to "replace" the reward system. The OP, you and some others want to hand out drow and 32 point builds to anyone. That is the point I keep bringing up but you seem to go on trying to redirect my point into some random topic. While everyone else who wanted those things, socialist minded people want things to seem "fair" at the cost of it being grossly UNFAIR to those who actually worked for those things.

Trust me, I understand that stance some out there have on what they deem is "fair" to the little guy. In real life and in this game. It always starts off small but builds up to more and more things being reworked to seem "fair" to everyone which in the end fails and will never, ever work. There will always be someone out there who is simply unwilling to put any real effort into anything for a reward for hard work. Instead, their types get catered to at the cost of everyone else around them.

To you, it is "forcing" a lose/lose situation to have a goal and a reward in place for reaching that goal. Yeah, that is such a horrible idea to inflict on people, working for a goal....oh the horror!!

[OnyxBMW]

As far as Multi-Class Characters' Class Level-up Order, Fred knows so therefore Turbine knows. Who's Fred you ask? Why he's the mindflayer in House J that exchanges your Feats.

As far as when you ate INT Tomes or took INT for Ability Point Increases at 4, 8, 12, and/or 16, I am not sure if Turbine knows that entirely. So if Turbine is planning a Skill Point Respec, they just need to pony up the whole kit and kaboodle - give us Skill Points based on current INT Bonus with Tomes but not Worn Items or Action Point Enhancements. Then Skill Points are assigned for each Class Level-up in order from the beginning.

Tomes do count towards Skill Points. Why do you think a +2 INT Tome is so valuble to a Level 1 Character? Because he or she will get an additional Skill Point per Level-up from Level 2 to Cap.

Oh and you forgot that Character Race plays a factor as well. Humans get Four Extra Skill Points during Character Creation and One Extra Skill Point per Level-up.

If that is the case, then yes, with skill respecs, they should give you retroactive skill points as if you had the tome equipped at first level, since that is a rather large balancing issue in my eyes.

And, I forgot about the human extra skill point thing, but this is also a concept, and as such will have a few points missing. Naturally, I wouldn't wish to begrudge humans of their bonus skill points, but it should be kept anyways.

As for bonus skill points for int bonuses at 4, 8, 12, 16, and soon to be 20? No. That one, since they should know when it happens, shouldn't grant retroactive points. But if you can give a +2 tome to a new character at level 1 and gain bonus skill points for the rest of the game, then you really should get free skill points as if you equipped it at 1.



Also, to Borror0 and Quanefel. I respectfully request you try to keep this from becoming a flame fest, but to Quanefel specifically.

You seem to be misinterpreting my point entirely. As far as character creation is concerned, the 28 vs 32 vs drow is a -balance- issue. As such, it is -imbalanced- and frustrating for people like me who cannot accept a 28 point character at all. I am literally leveling a throwaway wizard to 400 favor, only to literally throw him away and replace him with a drow sorc, to then level to 1750 favor to make all the other characters I'd like.

I used this as one reason why I -didn't- want to play DDO. The favor grind is just that. An obvious grind. It isn't a fun unlock, and it is just frustrating knowing that I am leveling one character just to delete him later.

If you actually read my post, you would have seen that I, in fact, said, to outright replace the drow and 32 point unlock with something equally as good, but not to the same degree of frustration as the 32 point buy/drow system is.

Hell, I even offered to accept the 400/1750 system if it just allowed ability respecs. I even offered ways to do it that wouldn't affect your skill point score by saying that int should be locked anyways so that the other stuff can be toyed with, but not int, so that the ever-harder skill point respec wasn't necessary.

I never once said that the favor grind was a bad thing. I said that the reward of the favor grind was very discouraging. When you have ANY new player coming into a game, and they decide to make characters just to delete them later because they aren't optimal, then there is a serious flaw in the game. Almost everyone can agree.

Case in point, look at hellgate london. One of the many things I heard wrong about the game was the lack of skill respecs in it. This discourages replay, and build experimentation because everything is locked in stone. If you choose the wrong skill, then you are stuck with it, and people do not like that.

Some people are more tolerant than others, I am more than willing to accept that. Other people grow sentimental to their 28 point characters and refuse to delete them. That is their choice, and I won't begrudge them that choice either, or slam them for sticking to it. But the simple fact is, I am a new person to this game, and when I found out about the 32 point buy system, I honestly considered not trying DDO.

I discussed it with my 2 friends who I was considering having follow me into the game (since playing any MMO solo is just boring.) They both agreed with me that the system sucked. After some long discussion, and I finally found out how drow worked, I was able to convince them that we could do a throwaway character and still enjoy the game. But now all I'm doing is running the same dungeons over and over attempting to get elite on all of them so I can at least get 400 favor. I'm currently at 200, but it definitely isn't fun. Specifically because I know I am going to delete this character, and am trying to hit 400 favor as fast as I think I can get it just to minimize lost time and, by extension, enjoyment.

If you question me about my 2 friends, I can have them post in here as well if you'd like.


However, my original point still stands. The 28 point system being permanent, and not even being able to upgrade your character, is a serious blight to the game as far as I am concerned, and if I considered that I didn't want to play DDO because of it, then there are at least a myriad others like me who thought the same thing, and not everyone is going to stick it out.

It can't hurt Turbine to add the system, beyond lost time devoted to doing content instead (pending on how their dev team is divided versus how the problem will be tackled), but it can help a lot of player's enjoyments by adding this into the game.

And, again. I have nothing wrong with the favor unlock system as a concept. My problem is, purely, in the drow and 32 point character unlock systems. If they replaced those with something equally as potent but not as downright necessary (to people like me), something that is a "bonus" instead of a "necessity", then by all means, replace the drow and 32 point unlock with it. I'd relish the grind in that case. But for the system as is, it is not a boon, it is a bane.

[FluffyCalico]

If that is the case, then yes, with skill respecs, they should give you retroactive skill points as if you had the tome equipped at first level, .

Um no...
Why the hell should I HAVE to respec my character to get its full skill point total? Many people do not want skill respecs in the game at all. Many more don't want to NEED to do them to be on equal ground. Can see it now loots +4 int tome... you need to go respec for your 40 skill points... /barf

I can see a respec having a penalty but not a Friggin reward

[Borror0]

Many humans to my knowledge think and act differently.

As the use of many denoted in my post, I am aware of that. One would believe you would have noticed that.

Many humans to my knowledge think and act differently.

While that is true of the individuals, that is simply false when talking of the masses. You can't use this argument to refute the effectiveness of effectiveness as a good incentive.

I won't go at length as to why that is (because that falls under common sense) but, ya, effectiveness is a good incentive for a wide percentage of the population. Effectiveness is attractive to nearly everyone people (at varying degree). That is why character improvement is an effective reward.

By your logic, good loot would not be good incentive to run content because "many humans think and act differently".

Your position would lead you to deny the viability of psychology, sociology and many other social sciences.

Anyone can use personal experience as an example.

There is a difference between using personal experience as an example and using personal experience to say "I work like that so everyone does", because that is the only way for your previous objection to be read. It denied the possibility of someone wanting to be effective, because you cannot conceive it.

I know, it does not sit well with your assertion that the ONLY way to get 1750 favor [...]

Stopping your right there. I never made such a claim.

In fact, the continuous use of the verb "to encourage" in my post clearly suggest that I am conscious that there many many ways to skin a cat.

So you do know what the term I was referring to about offering only 2 choices when there are many. And instead of admitting you used it, you try to wiggle your way out of it. Semantics at it's finest.

True there is a third option.

The player can reroll his character, refute to but accept his character will never be as good as could be or stop playing the game.

The OP, you and some others want to hand out drow and 32 point builds to anyone. That is the point I keep bringing up but you seem to go on trying to redirect my point into some random topic.

False. That is neither the point you are trying to bring up nor am I changing topic.

If that was the point you want to make, you should not call it a point but simply repeating the OP's position. Your previous "This is about getting favor rewards without having to put any effort into it because some out their feel "entitled" to it.", however, was a blatant straw man of the OP's position.

Since he intents to replace the rewards, it cannot be said that he wants to get favor rewards "without having to put any effort into it".

To you, it is "forcing" a lose/lose situation to have a goal and a reward in place for reaching that goal.

I will explain again, for you.

The problem is not having to work for the reward but that the joy that should be generated by the reward is mitigated by the fact that the player either has to reroll his character or accept that his character will never be as good as could be. Furthermore, if a player learns of the existence of the reward before obtaining, the current design encourages the players to focus their attention on one character to obtain the reward faster, and then have the liberty to play more than one character (as if he wants all his alts to gain from 23 point buy, he would have to reroll them after getting the reward).

[likuei]

/Not signed ... not in a million years.

Based on the lack of player skill and knowledge as it stands, there is NO reason whatsoever to make this a reality. A majority of the new playerbase problaby doesent even know you can unlock drow and 32pt builds.

1. There are already to many easy buttons in this game as it is.

2. You are setting the game up for people screaming ... bring back favor rewards, I want my +4 build points, you had it before, bring it back. Where does it end? 36 pts? 50? AND TOMES? Stop the inflation!

3. There is a problem with monsters as it is ... imagine trying to balance the game with MORE inflation on the charactors part.

[Borror0]

There is a problem with monsters as it is ... imagine trying to balance the game with MORE inflation on the charactors part.

His proposal would not inflate the characters more than they already are.

[OnyxBMW]

/Not signed ... not in a million years.

Based on the lack of player skill and knowledge as it stands, there is NO reason whatsoever to make this a reality. A majority of the new playerbase problaby doesent even know you can unlock drow and 32pt builds.

1. There are already to many easy buttons in this game as it is.

2. You are setting the game up for people screaming ... bring back favor rewards, I want my +4 build points, you had it before, bring it back. Where does it end? 36 pts? 50? AND TOMES? Stop the inflation!

3. There is a problem with monsters as it is ... imagine trying to balance the game with MORE inflation on the charactors part.

One, I'm not asking for an easy button. I am asking for Turbine to remove a large source of frustration, and replace it something that is, instead, fun.

Two, I never -once- asked for +4 point buys, and would never petition to increase points for characters above 32 effective. Instead, I said, again, to add more fun stuff to the favor system so that people have something to go for, but not something that is absolutely required under some people's minds.

Three. I am not asking for character inflation, I am asking for something that already exists for seeded players to be given to new players, since there is no way to retroactively give this (yet) to any 28 point character, to remove a large amount of tedium. You brought inflation into this debate, and you brought the notion of favor unlocks have to be skill point unlocks, not me. They can be replaced with a better tome, or even a unique item (that is actually worthwhile), or maybe another race unlock. I don't even care at this point if drow are given, I'd gladly still unlock them.

Hell, it can be a class unlock, it honestly doesn't matter to me as long as it isn't something that in many cases causes people to throw away their character because it is sub-par at best.

Again, I have stated that I am essentially building a character to throw it away. And, arguing that the new playerbase doesn't know about it is just false logic. I found out about it, I'm new, that alone shows something. But, imagine this. I came in knowing about the problem. I subscribed to the game knowing full well I'd have to go through this grind, and if that's the way it is, then so be it. But imagine a brand new person, who subbed without knowing about it, and then found out once they did some digging around that their character, at 28 points, is missing 4 points of the total buy, that (s)he cannot allocate once (s)he unlocks it? Wouldn't you feel a little mad? It's almost like a bait and switch at that point.

If they at least allow respecs, that is fine, as long as it can be re-allocated or put into your build. Give it to people at char creation always, as well, so people don't feel forced to unlock it. However, with respecs, at least they don't have to throw away their character to get it. Not a total victory, but better than the alternative.

It's a big deal though, and something should be done to rectify it.

[OnyxBMW]

Um no...
Why the hell should I HAVE to respec my character to get its full skill point total? Many people do not want skill respecs in the game at all. Many more don't want to NEED to do them to be on equal ground. Can see it now loots +4 int tome... you need to go respec for your 40 skill points... /barf

I can see a respec having a penalty but not a Friggin reward

Then why should a person being given a hypothetical +4 int tome at level 1 be allowed 40 additional points by level 20 over someone who didn't add a tome until level 20? It can be a relatively significant difference in the character.

It doesn't need to be thrown in upon using a respec. It can be added from using the tome, but if you can transfer the tomes off to a level 1, then there is no reason to punish someone who decided not to max out their char by using said +4 int tome at level 1. They could, for instance, offer a respec on using the hypothetical +4 tome, or even just pop up a skill allocation window with however many points you'd have gotten over the previous for your level, and allow people to not need to respec, just spend them upon using.

You're arguing why people shouldn't be rewarded, but why should they be punished instead for being new or not getting a +x int tome at level 1?

Sorry for the double post, but with how lengthy I can get, I figured it was worth separating the two posts.

[Kistilan]

Strawman, really? You need new material, that is getting OLD.

Oh, I read the OP's post. I do not need anyone suggesting I didn't. Maybe you need to reread his post because he clearly writes that 32 point builds and drow should be GIVEN to all starting characters.

"Unpleasant feelings" is why it makes sense to allow 32 point ungrades? Using emotional appeals instead of logic now are we?

If it is a twisted way to accomplishing the goal of getting a 32 point build, again, why bother having it at all?

/qft

This thread has been debated to the core of someone's soul and we've found it lacking content and the ability to compromise.

PS: Respecs are for wimps.

[Kistilan]

To you, it is "forcing" a lose/lose situation to have a goal and a reward in place for reaching that goal. Yeah, that is such a horrible idea to inflict on people, working for a goal....oh the horror!!

To the untrained eye this is actually a debate between capitalism (working hard for a reward, beating the other dogs in the pack and coming out on top) and socialism (SWAG).

*coughs* I suppose this might be the next logical step if one did not have to work to maintain one's privilleged lifestyle.

[Borror0]

One, I'm not asking for an easy button. I am asking for Turbine to remove a large source of frustration, and replace it something that is, instead, fun.

By making a statement worded like that one, you'll have opposition like "Well, fun is subjective."

While that is an inane objection, many people will try to oppose sounds arguments with such a silly reasoning. For that reason, you have to be very precise in your wording and say that you want to make it fun for a wider crowd than what it currently is.

[...] or maybe another race unlock.

Unlocking races and classes with favor result in a similar, but less worse, situation where a player holds on rolling what he wants because he wants to roll a character of that class or race. While it is less bad, I don't really see the advantages of doing so. (It is particularly bad if the new class is an healing class, as it reduces the number of healers in your game, which is a never a good thing to do.)

/offtopic off

Then why should a person being given a hypothetical +4 int tome at level 1 be allowed 40 additional points by level 20 over someone who didn't add a tome until level 20?

That is another rather important point.

Int tomes not being retroactive is another incentive to reroll and a disincentive to rolling multiple characters.

You're arguing why people shouldn't be rewarded, but why should they be punished instead for being new or not getting a +x int tome at level 1?

I would reword that question: Why should the reward be greater if you obtain it earlier rather than later in your character's life?

I would also act what are the advantages of the current design, if any.

[OnyxBMW]

Some fair points, borror0, but I am attempting to meet them halfway.

And yes, for the next announced class I heard of, druid, making it unlock only would be a tad....ehhh, yeah. I can see your point.

Regardless, they want ideas for what can be a favor unlock, these are potential ideas.

Also, I believe you reworded my question for me, so...

[eonfreon]

I think you have some fair ideas.

This is my first and only MMO so I had nothing to compare it to.

Once I unlocked Drow and finally 32 Point I eventually deleted all my old 28 Pointers.

I probably would have eventually rerolled anyway because I made many mistakes, even though I "knew" D&D (the old version AD&D- things were quite different even if the concepts are close).

I "worked" on my Favor. I got my "reward" and I deleted all my old toons.
Did I feel obligated to?
No.
But others might feel so.
I did the "work" to get my "reward" and yet I don't feel threatened by the idea of changing the rewards and giving all new players 32 Pointers from the start.

Anyway, arguing about it is useless really.
Make suggestions and hope that some Devs will like it, because I feel all the "QFT", "/Signed", "/Unsigned", and arguments about "entitlement" versus "I had to do it so should you", etc is rather pointless.

"Capitalis" vs "Socialism"?
LOL- Yeah to the VERY UNTRAINED EYE it might appear to have some semblance, but come on.
THe Favor you worked for will still be there, just the reward would be changed for getting that favor, and the old favor reward would become the norm.
As a comparison- remember when you got that 32 Pointer AND unlocked a new slot too (or was it when you unlocked Drow- can't remember), later Turbine took part of that "reward", the unlocked slot, and just gave it to everyone, plus more slots, etc.

Things change. The old "I had to do it so you should too or you're somehow lesser than me" argument is good for a laugh at least.

So for what it's worth:
/Signed to changing the Favor rewards and starting new players with 32 Pointers.

[Gorbie]

There is nothing at all wrong with keeping a 28 point build. My capped wizard is a 28 point build premiere toon. He got to 1750 favor and I deleted all the 2nd level toons I had made and never really played because I enjoy my wizard so much. Now I have a half dozen up-and-coming 32 point/Drow builds that I dont enjoy half as much as my 28 point wizard. There's NOTHING wrong with him. Are his stats as high as they theoretically could be? No, of course not. Do I care? Not in the least because they are as high as I need them to be. I am probably one of the most powerful casters on Argonessen and I didn't need 32 stat points to get there. So quit your whining and just enjoy your characters for what they are. If you want to crunch numbers all day become an accountant.