Ability, Skill respecs, 32 point/drow unlocks.

[Thrudh]

Are +1,2 and +3 tomes going to be demanded handed out as well to make everyone's character equal with everyone else? When +4's and +5's come out, those as well?

If there is an issue with 4 point difference in 28 to 32, tomes are more unequal than 1750 favor could ever be. Seeing as tomes can be added to every stat. That is a big gap between those who have none or very little tomes eaten.

If getting a +3 tome on each stat is alot more difficult than earning 1750 is, will tomes be next on the chopping block in this misguided effort to make everyone be "equal" with all other characters as well?

Do tomes by virtue of being harder to aquire as well, force new players to quit? Knowing that it will take a great deal of time and effort to aquire?

Is all those players out there that still have their 28 point builds and more than likely have +3 tomes for virtually every stat, are they gimped compared to a 32 point builds who is not as fortunate to have that many if any tomes at all? Should we demand to have their tomes to make everyone on par with them? When will it end?

You're not thinking clearly...

Tomes are completely different... It's not unfair that you have a +3 tome and I don't, because I can get one someday... My 28 point character however, can never be a 32 point character...

I fully support a mechanism that would make existing 28 point characters get 4 extra build points AFTER they get the 1750 favor... They would still have to do the work, and make the effort, but then the character who did all the work could enjoy the benefit....

Nothing wrong with that at all...

[Thrudh]

lets think in a hypothetical situation:

when you hit 2750 favor you ll unlock an extra feat in a new char

fair for you guys?

after leveling 3 chars till 16!

i dont think its fair

It would be fair to all those who put the effort into earning it.

I don't understand your answer... Let's say you have 10 capped characters now, all with raid gear... then they come up with the proposal above... where all NEW characters you create after hitting 2750 favor will have a bonus feat... That's pretty powerful for many builds...

You think that would be a good mechanic to implement?

[Borror0]

Are +1,2 and +3 tomes going to be demanded handed out as well to make everyone's character equal with everyone else?

Tomes (with the exception on Int) apply retroactively. Obtaining 32 point buy does not apply retroactively, you have to delete and reroll.

[Thrudh]

It's just the way our brain works.

Ever thought the expression PvE? Player versus environment. While you say that DDO is not a competitive game, that can only be true about yourself. It's not a general truth. Many play games to beat them, to defeat the environment. It's not an inferior way to play a game, it's just different.

Only true if you use a precise definition of wasted, which she didn't use. Remember that gamers tend to use hyperbolic expressions.

The time is not wasted in the sense that she did not enjoy play the game, but rather that she feels that the time she spent into the character was "all for nothing". While it may not be the case for you, many players play to improve their character. It's what is fun to them, and having to delete a character creates an unpleasant feeling that can indeed be summarized by "the feeling to have wasted time".

Probably it sounds strange and odd to you, but at least acknowledge that is the way some people's brain is wired and that no argument can change that.

However, since there are people like that, it is in the interest of a profit-driven company like Turbine to adapt their design to that reality.

You know what's really a waste of time? Using logic and polite reasoning with Bran.

[Quanefel]

You're not thinking clearly...

Tomes are completely different... It's not unfair that you have a +3 tome and I don't, because I can get one someday... My 28 point character however, can never be a 32 point character...

I fully support a mechanism that would make existing 28 point characters get 4 extra build points AFTER they get the 1750 favor... They would still have to do the work, and make the effort, but then the character who did all the work could enjoy the benefit....

Nothing wrong with that at all...

I am thinking clearly. People are upset at a 4 point difference, you just don't like what it shows when I point out the tomes. It's understandable to not want it pointed out. Yet I will.

Tomes are no different than that 4 point gap, in fact they are worse. How far will that 4 points go compared to tomes for any stat you want? You do not think it would put a casual player starting out at a much greater disadvatange than someone who has all those tome or could get them rather freely? I think you know the answer.

Tomes can be gotten someday? Yes and 1750 favor can be gotten someday, alot sooner than +3 tomes or +4's and +5's that will be coming out sometime. If it is not unfair I have +3 tomes for every stat, how in the same breathe can it be said that it is unfair to not have 4 points because of the 28-32 point build gap? 18 points compared to just 4 points would be a bit more, ya think?

28 point builds can be a 32 point build, it is incorrect to suggest "never". Reroll, there is your new 32 point build.

[Thrudh]

28 point builds can be a 32 point build, it is incorrect to suggest "never". Reroll, there is your new 32 point build.

That is not a 28 point build "becoming" a 32 point build.. That is a 28 point build being destroyed... and starting over...

Again, answer the question about the feats... Or if there was a 36 point build unlocked today at 2750 favor... Think the majority of people would appreciate your answer of "just reroll all your characters.. Sheesh you guys are crybabies"

What exactly is wrong with giving a current 28 point character 4 more build points AFTER THEY REACH 1750 FAVOR?

This would apply to all your 28 point builds too... Everyone still has to do the work to get the reward... But no one has to reroll that first character who they have been playing for the last 6 months (First time you get 1750 favor, it takes a while).

Giving people incentive to reroll that first character or not to play multiple characters when starting out is bad design...

No one is asking for freebies... People are asking for rewards for their efforts to apply to their current characters, not just new characters...

[Milolyen]

Refusing to acknowledge and comment is different than the skilled logical deliverance of:

A. Is False
B. Is Incorrect.
C. Is a Strawmen.
.: D. You have no arguement.
because E: I said so.

Does this seem anymore effective? At least he comments on the things he's willing to talk about and says "I don't care about the rest -- I'm not interested in discussing that point." That's what Bran does.

I don't know I have seen Borr and others that use those approachs actually debate rather effectively. They are (again from what I have seen) able to conceed points if you base them on actual logic and with actual facts where Bran just ignores points if they do not fit his arguement or if he has no arguement against it. Oh and I have seen Bran use "I said so" more than anyone else on these forums.

Milolyen

[Quanefel]

That is not a 28 point build "becoming" a 32 point build.. That is a 28 point build being destroyed... and starting over...

Again, answer the question about the feats... Or if there was a 36 point build unlocked today at 2750 favor... Think the majority of people would appreciate your answer of "just reroll all your characters.. Sheesh you guys are crybabies"

What exactly is wrong with giving a current 28 point character 4 more build points AFTER THEY REACH 1750 FAVOR?

This would apply to all your 28 point builds too... Everyone still has to do the work to get the reward... But no one has to reroll that first character who they have been playing for the last 6 months (First time you get 1750 favor, it takes a while).

Giving people incentive to reroll that first character or not to play multiple characters when starting out is bad design...

No one is asking for freebies... People are asking for rewards for their efforts to apply to their current characters, not just new characters...

Does that destroyed 28 point build become a 32 point build or still remains a 28 point build?

Would those 4 points be given and treated the same as at creation or treated like the stat boosts we get every 4 levels is handled? If it is the former than it would not be much of an issue, if it is the latter than a player would get point for point that other players with 32 point builds could not get. At creation, once you reach 15 on a stat the stat point cost increases. It is not longer point for point.

In getting 4 points after creation, it would be bypassing that stat point feature. Is that really fair to everyone else?

Also, are you 100% sure no one can play another character while reaching for 1750 favor? Is it bad design or people unwilling to play mutiple characters while leveling up?

[Thrudh]

Does that destroyed 28 point build become a 32 point build or still remains a 28 point build?

Would those 4 points be given and treated the same as at creation or treated like the stat boosts we get every 4 levels is handled? If it is the former than it would not be much of an issue, if it is the latter than a player would get point for point that other players with 32 point builds could not get. At creation, once you reach 15 on a stat the stat point cost increases. It is not longer point for point.

In getting 4 points after creation, it would be bypassing that stat point feature. Is that really fair to everyone else?

Of course it would be 4 "build" points, with all the restrictions... not just 4 stat points you could put anywhere...

It wouldn't be that hard to do if Turbine kept track of where you spent your level ups... If your human STR was 16 at level 1 and 20 at level 16 when you got your 1750 favor, you could increase STR by 1 point but it would cost you 3 build points, just like it would have cost you at level 1.

Problem is, Turbine may not track level ups

[Seneca_Windforge]

As an experienced player who has been here for quite a while, I agree with your stance on this and have on multiple occasions tried to suggest that we get rid of favor rewards such as Drow and 32-point, or at least change the rewards so that they don't induce the "delete and reroll upon unlock" that you mention.

It seems that the stance of many is that they had to do it, so should you. A very poor stance, in my opinion, and one that refuses to see much past the end of one's nose.

I've even argued that this is something that may turn away new players, that someone coming in might not like this setup. I was told I was foolish for thinking such things... despite numerous people stating that was how they felt, and despite posts like yours.

Here's to hoping Turbine will eventually wake up and smell the coffee.

I'm not interested in keeping up with another respec thread, but I will at least say that my stance is basically the same as the above.

[Borror0]

Is it bad design or people unwilling to play mutiple characters while leveling up?

It's bad design to discourage other to play multiple characters.

Many players who do focus on only one character to reach 1750 would rather play multiple characters, but if the choice is to force themselves to grind 1750 with only one character or play multiple character and accept the fate that those will never be as good as 32 point buy characters, then they'll pick the former.

It's not about laziness but design making you chose between two choices you don't like much when it could be otherwise.

Problem is, Turbine may not track level ups

It would be far more simple if:

1. Respec, but with 32 points
2. Add your level up points

[ShaeNightbird]

I have yet to see him intelligently argue with anyone.

Milolyen

You aren't looking very closely, then.

[branmakmuffin]

Tomes (with the exception on Int) apply retroactively. Obtaining 32 point buy does not apply retroactively, you have to delete and reroll.

But they are still rewards (albeit not certain rewards) for long-term playing. Is that what gets some people in a twist, that 32-point builds are something other people (i.e., those willing to put enough play time) are guaranteed to get when the "some people" don't have them? If so, this is what I said before: "Johnny got a little, teeny, tiny bit more cake than I did!"

You know what's really a waste of time? Using logic and polite reasoning with Bran.

Don't knock it if you've never tried it.

[branmakmuffin]

Double post.

[Borror0]

If so, this is what I said before: "Johnny got a little, teeny, tiny bit more cake than I did!"

Nope. It is about being discouraged not not play the way you may want to play (ie rolling multiple alts).

If there is any envy, it's self-envy: "Johnny will be better if I wait until I have an unbound +2 Int tome and unlocked 1750 favor before rolling him."

[Kistilan]

I don't know I have seen Borr and others that use those approachs actually debate rather effectively. They are (again from what I have seen) able to conceed points if you base them on actual logic and with actual facts where Bran just ignores points if they do not fit his arguement or if he has no arguement against it. Oh and I have seen Bran use "I said so" more than anyone else on these forums.

Milolyen

Sometimes they're effective -- I've also seen them use the logic regardless of how they can prove something is correct or incorrect & simply state "So it is and therefore I am."

Don't get me wrong -- logic is great -- until you abuse it to make a lot of people reading think you're the correct debater at all the times.

Sometimes both people are correct and simply have differing views or solutions. This is called diplomacy and compromise.

[branmakmuffin]

It's just the way our brain works.

Ever thought the expression PvE? Player versus environment. While you say that DDO is not a competitive game, that can only be true about yourself.

It's not designed as a competitive like, for example, chess. You can turn doing laundry into a competition.

The time is not wasted in the sense that she did not enjoy play the game, but rather that she feels that the time she spent into the character was "all for nothing".

An attitude I cannot understand, which I already made clear. Remember what Yoda said about Luke not being able to keep his mind focused on where he was at the time, on what he was doing at the time, without always looking forward. "Focus on now" (which is essentially Yoda's message) is good advice even if it is from a cheesy sci fi movie.

That sentiment also applies here:

Nope. It is about being discouraged not not play the way you may want to play (ie rolling multiple alts).

If there is any envy, it's self-envy: "Johnny will be better if I wait until I have an unbound +2 Int tome and unlocked 1750 favor before rolling him."

Probably it sounds strange and odd to you, but at least acknowledge that is the way some people's brain is wired and that no argument can change that.

However, since there are people like that, it is in the interest of a profit-driven company like Turbine to adapt their design to that reality.

So far, it seems the "32-point build haters" are in the vast minority. So while what you state is true conceptually, it does not seem to apply in this instance.

[Quanefel]

It's bad design to discourage other to play multiple characters.

Many players who do focus on only one character to reach 1750 would rather play multiple characters, but if the choice is to force themselves to grind 1750 with only one character or play multiple character and accept the fate that those will never be as good as 32 point buy characters, then they'll pick the former.

It's not about laziness but design making you chose between two choices you don't like much when it could be otherwise.

It would be far more simple if:

1. Respec, but with 32 points
2. Add your level up points

It is not design that prevents a player from playing multiple chracters when reaching their first 1750 favor, it is the people who are playing that character that is preventing it. If it was design causing that, it would effect everyone equally. Since it is not, it is coming from that individual player and his perception of that issue.

For what you wrote to be true, there would have to be only two choices. There is not just two, there are many choices a player can pick from but for some(Not all) players those choices are simply not good enough. That does not speak of a design flaw, that is a player perception flaw.

It would be a much different situation if the amount of favor and the ease at which to get it was the same as when it first came out. It is not. But does that matter to some players? Nope. Because unless it is outright handed to them then they feel slighted somehow. I guess their idea of fun trumps everyone else. ....Special little creatures...

[Azdraugnor]

It would be a much different situation if the amount of favor and the ease at which to get it was the same as when it first came out. It is not. But does that matter to some players? Nope. Because unless it is outright handed to them then they feel slighted somehow. I guess their idea of fun trumps everyone else. Special people.

Feel slighted? That's not the issue. The issue is that their characters are functionally inferior. I firmly believe that no character should have a functional and inherent advantage that cannot be obtained by another character. Since you seem to think that DDO should be as similar to PnP as possible, I'll offer an example of why this would be unbalanced in a PnP campaign:
Let's say that your DM were to run a campaign where all characters were to be built from a 28 point buy. However, half of the group played in a previous campaign run by that same DM, and as a result, he lets those players use a 32 point buy. However, the DM claims that it is fair, as in the next campaign he runs, the newer players will also get this 32 point buy.

Any DM who did this would be unpopular, to say the least. If characters are unequal in a campaign, it should be due to mistakes on the part of the player, not an inherent facet of the rules.

[Kazorn]

[*]Respec, but with 32 points

Sounds fair enough.

Points:

1) Reroll is not fun (am i wrong about that?);
2) The actual favor system (drow/32 pts build) dont help in anyway newcommers or returning players;
3) If Turbine want to keep us playing more and more just give us more char slots everytime we hit certain favor.