Another TWF Vs. THF thread, using algebra

[Slayer918]

DISCLAIMER: This thread is not trying to prove the THF barb is superior to the Kensai II/Tempest I TWF character or vice versa. It's not even really supposed to present a true in game comparison. Builds don't kill monsters. Players kill monsters! I just wanted to explore the math. I would love anyone with a barb to let me know how much glancing blows average! (or if there is a known formula to calculate them?) I wanted to be able to just take numbers str, PA, bard etc. plug them in without having to redo any calcs.

So I wanted to come up with the equations for Max THF Barb DPS (Sidestepping) Versus a Modified "Monster" Build (12 Fighter/6 Ranger/2 Barbarian). Both Will Be WF. I will not look at to-hit as most monsters don't have ACs that make too much of a difference.

Variables:
X = Mainhand/THF normal Damage (Damage Mod + Weapon Damage Die)
Y = offhand normal Damage
G = damage per Glancing Blow
M = The Number of Monsters in range of Glancing Blows (this includes main target)

So the Barb's THF equation is:
138 Attacks/min (I counted Shade's Video here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=182221)
6.9 misses/min = 0 damage
117.3 hits/min = 117.3 * X
13.8 crits/min = 13.8 * 5 * (X + 6) = 69X + 414
69 Glancing Blows* = 69 * G * M
131.1 attacks get Viscous = 131.1 * 4d6 = 1835.4
Total: 186.3X + 2249.4 + 69GM

The 12/6/2 TWF equation is:
123 Attacks/min per hand (TWF haste + Tempest as listed here: http://community.codemasters.com/for...&postcount=240)
Mainhand:
6.15 miss = 0 damage
92.25 hits = 92.25 * X
24.6 crits = 24.6 * 3 * (X + 10) = 73.8X + 738
Offhand:
6.15 miss = 0 damage
92.25 hits = 92.25 * Y
24.6 crits = 24.6 * 3 * (Y + 10) = 73.8Y + 738
Total: 166.05X + 166.05Y + 1476

Now We can look at specific buffs. For instance a +8 Warchanter song is equal to +8 for X and +8 for Y so:

+8 Warchanters give:
1490.4 damage per min to the Barb (24.84 Damage Per Second)
and 2656.8 damage per min to the TWF (44.28 Damage Per Second)

So If we want to plug in some numbers For instance the Barb Would have
3d6 GS greataxe
5 enchantment
36 Str (18base 6item 5lvl 3tome 12rage 2cap 6frenzy 2rage 4madstone = 58)
22 PA (10 base 6 WF enhancements 6 Barb Enhancements)
X = 10.5 + 63 = 73.5

The Fighter Has
1d10 GS khopesh
5 enchantment
20/10 Str (18base 6item 5lvl 3tome 8PowerSurge 2rage 4madstone 3enhancement 2Ram's Might = 51)
6 PA (5 base 1 barb enhancement)
4 WS feats
2 WS enhancements
2 Ram's Might
X = 5.5 + 39 = 44.5, Y = 5.5 + 29 = 34.5

I don't know how much glancing blows normally do but my inclination is to guess high 30's? I'll just use 37.5 for G and 1 extra Monster

So the Barb has: 186.3 * 73.5 + 2249.4 + 69 * 37.5 * 2 = 21117.45/60 = 351.9575 Damage per second (308.8325 without an extra monster for glancing Blows)

The fighter has: 166.05 * 44.5 + 166.05 * 34.5 + 1476 = 14593.95/60 = 243.2325 Damage Per Second

So baseline the Barb Does much more DPS but any +1 to damage is 332.1/60 = 5.535 Damage Per Second for the Fighter. Against Favored Enemies he thus gets 33.21 extra Damage Per Second. 44.28 DPS from warchanter (24.84 for the barb)

So if we look at solely 1 monster, with bard buffs, and it's a FE its (Raid Boss Situation?):
Barb = 308.8325 + 24.84 = 333.6725
Fighter = 243.2325 + 44.28 + 33.21 = 320.7225

here's a list of buffs/boosts DPS:
..............................................Barb / Fighter:
+8 Warchanter = ....................24.84 / 44.28
+6 FE =...................................... 0 / 33.21
+4 Str rage (12F/6R/2B) =............. 0 / 8.3025
Each Additional Monster (GB) = 43.125 / 0
Haste boost 4 =........................... 0 / * 1.2845528...
Holy =.................................15.295 / 27.265 (I think)
Good Burst =......................12.4775 / 25.1125 (I think)
Acid =................................7.6475 / 13.6325

So if we add a Min II Greataxe (or dual khopeshes) acid/good burst/non DPS boosts to that boss fight earlier we get:
333.6725 + 7.6475 + 12.4775 = 353.7975 DPS for the Barb
320.7225 + 13.6325 + 25.1125 = 359.4675 DPS for the Fighter
not to mention that fighter could potentially hit Haste Boost IV (atleast 7 times/rest) to raise that to 461.7549836 for 20 seconds

Whoops the above does not have +3 PA damage for the fighter being a Warforged... so all fighter DPS total numbers should be raised by 3 * 5.535 = 16.605 DPS... this was actually sort of the whole reason for this thread... being able to add damage boosts without having to change all the numbers in the original equation

[BLAKROC]

it's not damage per second it's Damage per swing.
not everyone will do the hokey pokey while attacking things so you really should use a more realistic number of attacks for THF. then recompute

[SimVerg]

Glancing blows do .3(base damage + 20(w/GTHF))

edit: That's at 16. It scales with BAB if I remember correctly, so it could potentially go up by the time we hit 20.

edit2: And glancing blows also have an unknown chance to trigger on hit effects.

[Aaxeyu]

I suggest that you count the average damage per hit first, and then using that with the attacks per min to get the damage per second. It's much easier to follow that way imo.

[Aaxeyu]

Here's a DPS profile for a level 20 WF pure barb:

34 - Str (18 + 5 + 3 + 12 + 6 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 6)
11 - Greataxe
5 - Weapon mod
22 - PA
9 - Bard songs
1 - Prayer
1.65 - Average damage boost over 5 minutes
-------------------------------------------------
83.65 base damage per hit.
-------------------------------------------------
7 - Holy
2.5 - Slicing
3.5 - Acid
1 - Force ritual
21 - Frenzy
-------------------------------------------------
35 Effect damage per hit.
-------------------------------------------------
25 - Glancing Blow (You get glancing on every other blow with 2 step twitch right? And 50 damage per glancing seems fair enough)
3.5 - Glancing effects (Really don't know often effects will proc on glancing hits, 50% seems a fair estimate)
10.5 - Frenzy
--------------------------------------------------
39 Glancing damage per hit.
-------------------------------------------------
157.65 - Average damage per non crit

Crits:
418.25 - Normal damage (83.65 * 5)
30 - seeker
35 - effects
44 - Acid burst + Blast
39 - Glancing
14 on pure 20s - Blast
--------------------------------------------------
566.25 - Average critical damage
--------------------------------------------------
191.33 - Average damage per hit (17 * 157.65 + 2 * 566.25 + 14)/20
--------------------------------------------------
440.1 DPS - (138 * 191.33)/60

Both TWF fighters and barbs have higher DPS even without twitching.

[BlackSteel]

you messed up on a few things first Aax.

56 str will be the low average for any well geared barb at lvl 20. 60-64 is a more respectable number, considering 73 str will be the cap with current equip at lvl 20.

PA would be 22 not 21

and frenzy damage is 100% on glancing blows, unlike the weapon proc percent.


I'm not saying THF is more, just that its not that far behind on single target, you add in one extra target tho and it is. Pretty sure I got the weapon styles being even identical WF barbs (twf to thf) when the THF can produce 138 attacks per minute. Thats fully buffed at 20 with all the extra dice from frenzy.

So a perfect 2 step combination at 140 attacks a minute would actually allow THF to beat TWF on a WF barb. But considering the low 130s is more reasonable, THF falls slightly behind, until you add in additional targets, then it jumps ahead pretty easily.

Granted this only works for 18+ barbarians, most other classes will lack the PA or str to make it worthwhile. AND other classes and many other multiclass combinations recieve bonuses more advantageous to TWF than THF (any straight +damage like favored enemy, weapon specs, divine might). So saying that a THF barb can do more damage than a TWF barb when stepping perfectly is kinda silly, when next mod any barbarian will not be at the top of the DPS food chain. They do present very consistent nonboostable damage, but far pretty short during boostable 20s intervals.

The worst thing about it is when you bring two handed melee into your party. If they're not very good at moving around, dont know how, feeling lazy, or are preoccupied, then the groups DPS really suffers. Its not that it takes alot of concentration once you get it down, its that it keeps both your hands busy. Forget about text chatting or eating a sandwhich with one hand, unless you want to click auto attack for a few seconds and eat up to -40% damage.

[Aaxeyu]

you messed up on a few things first Aax.

56 str will be the low average for any well geared barb at lvl 20. 60-64 is a more respectable number, considering 73 str will be the cap with current equip at lvl 20.

PA would be 22 not 21

and frenzy damage is 100% on glancing blows, unlike the weapon proc percent.

I prefer not to include double madstone and bloodrage for obvious reasons.


Are you sure that frenzy works 100% on glancing blows? Can anyone confirm it?

Edited the calc, thank you.

[BlackSteel]

Both TWF fighters and barbs have higher DPS even without twitching.

yeh the fighter wins due to haste boost, but the two fighting styles are pretty much equal (((for the barbarian))) if you want to compare to cforces dps table, or make your own. Its not the highest, as can be seen in cforces index, but its pretty much the highest that doesnt involve a 20s boost. The only negative to that tho is that in all current content 5-8 boosts is more than enough for all encounters, cept maybe a shroud speed run where the melees dont shrine.

[Aaxeyu]

Both TWF fighters and barbs have higher DPS even without twitching.

yeh the fighter wins due to haste boost, but the two fighting styles are pretty much equal (((for the barbarian))) if you want to compare to cforces dps table, or make your own. Its not the highest, as can be seen in cforces index, but its pretty much the highest that doesnt involve a 20s boost. The only negative to that tho is that in all current content 5-8 boosts is more than enough for all encounters, cept maybe a shroud speed run where the melees dont shrine.[/QUOTE]

If the TWF barb twitch aswell it beats the THF barb.

I'ts clear that fighers are far superior than barbs for DPS. No barb will beat a TWF fighter. Fighters won't take 2d3 damage per attack either.
So I agree that the boosts are quite overpowered in the current content (and I'm am fairly certain that they will be in the next mod too).

Considering that barbs take alot of damage from frenzy they "should" deal more DPS, but unfourtenaly that's not the case.

[BlackSteel]

eh TWF twitching doesnt do much at all, and infact makes a pretty hefty penalty if you're talking about dual wield/heavyoffhand/moving/WFBarb PA. There are enough occasions where the -15 hurts enough, I couldnt imagine adding more.


kensai and FB look to be pretty close for damage (especially when you throw in the capstones); the FB does a tad more, but when you throw action boosts into the equation, then the fighter just rocks it

[Monkey_Archer]

Here's a DPS profile for a level 20 WF pure barb:

34 - Str (18 + 5 + 3 + 12 + 6 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 6)
11 - Greataxe
5 - Weapon mod
22 - PA
9 - Bard songs
1 - Prayer
1.65 - Average damage boost over 5 minutes
-------------------------------------------------
83.65 base damage per hit.
-------------------------------------------------
7 - Holy
2.5 - Slicing
3.5 - Acid
1 - Force ritual
21 - Frenzy
-------------------------------------------------
35 Effect damage per hit.
-------------------------------------------------
25 - Glancing Blow (You get glancing on every other blow with 2 step twitch right? And 50 damage per glancing seems fair enough)
3.5 - Glancing effects (Really don't know often effects will proc on glancing hits, 50% seems a fair estimate)
10.5 - Frenzy
--------------------------------------------------
39 Glancing damage per hit.
-------------------------------------------------
157.65 - Average damage per non crit

Crits:
418.25 - Normal damage (83.65 * 5)
30 - seeker
35 - effects
44 - Acid burst + Blast
39 - Glancing
14 on pure 20s - Blast
--------------------------------------------------
566.25 - Average critical damage
--------------------------------------------------
191.33 - Average damage per hit (17 * 157.65 + 2 * 566.25 + 14)/20
--------------------------------------------------
440.1 DPS - (138 * 191.33)/60

Both TWF fighters and barbs have higher DPS even without twitching.

A few things to note...
Greataxes do 10.5 damage on average
and you are definately over-estimating glancing blow base damage... these typically do less then 50% of base damage (maybe 40-50%.. not 60%)

Using the same numbers, no boosts, 50% damage glancing blows, and 0% glancing blow effects i got:
FB: 392
Kensai: 352
Colossus: 341

Interesting note... add 100% fortification:
FB: 299
Kensai:271
Colossus:287

[maddmatt70]

Since we are talking mod 9 the 14 paladin 6 ranger in the hands of a super twitch stud trounces any other build when it goes against evil outsiders except for perhaps a 13 ranger 6 rogue 1 barbarian str based where it gets sneak attack damage no matter how you analyze twf vs. thf. Since the next raid boss is an evil outsider with fortification likley - advantage 14 pally 6 ranger.

[Shade]

and you are definately over-estimating glancing blow base damage... these typically do less then 50% of base damage (maybe 40-50%.. not 60%)

over-estimating.. This is a special term for u math BS'ers that means "pulling out of their ***" correct?

The Barbarian capstone increases the base glancing blows damage. By how much exactly we do not know as no one has ever tested it and posted anything yet.

Bersekrs gets a large penalty to AC and some self damage, very few feats and locked out of drinking potions/using clickies while raged. Fighters get none of these penalties and tons of feats. The devs know this. The devs balanced the PrC accordingly. The Barbarian does more DPS because the devs set it up that way. All the made up math in the world won't change this.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

The Barbarian capstone increases the base glancing blows damage. By how much exactly we do not know as no one has ever tested it and posted anything yet.

Bersekrs gets a large penalty to AC and some self damage, very few feats and locked out of drinking potions/using clickies while raged. Fighters get none of these penalties and tons of feats. The devs know this. The devs balanced the PrC accordingly. The Barbarian does more DPS because the devs set it up that way. All the made up math in the world won't change this.

Indeed, it has not been tested (afaik) how good it will be. But neither do you, so I suggest you keep the biased barbarian opinions to yourself if you tell the others to keep their non-biased to themselves.

You are correct in that statement, at least until the end of it.
1. Apperantly the devs don't know this, I mean it's not like the game is balanced in the first place.
2. No offense ofcourse, but I suggest you actually read the calculations posted, and until you spot a flaw you stop looking down on them just because they aint in the Barbarian favor. It's too obvious that you're a very biased if no the most biased person on these boards.

[KKDragonLord]

One question, seeing as barbs and fighters have interesting things to improve damage...
compared to them would a low Cha THF Pally be too much of a gimp on the DPS department?

[oogly54]

The moral of this story is that the DEVs actually got something right. There are multiple DPS tanks out there that hold there own. BALANCED DPS!! No need to blacklist all ranger/paladins/barbs/fighters. Just the monks!