quantitative thoughts about uber vs casual

[gfunk]

OK. So there have been alot of posts where elitist players put down casual/newb players and vise versa. Each camp seems to have a real hate-on for the other. It got me wondering: how much of a divide is there between the two in terms of DPS?

DPS (or lack of it) is a common complaint. Uber people might not take unknown casual players because they fear the casual will have too low of dps. Casual players often express their dislike of how big a divide there is and how hard it is to keep up with the uber people.

I have also been thinking about shrouds, wondering how some groups can take 4 or more rounds in part 4, whereas other rounds get it done in 1 round... no where else does the gap in DPS seem more apparent.

As I have been doing alot of DPS calculations recently, I thought I would put a chart up for relative DPS between characters with different weapon configurations. I looked at buffed and unbuffed examples of 5 different characters at level 16(4 rangers, and 1 sword and board fighter). I mostly used rangers as they are an easy class for new people to play, and they can also do high DPS as a pure class (I wanted to avoid all the complexities with multiclasses.. I'm just trying for some perspective here, not absolute answeres).

Here are the 5 characters that I used (generally somewhat maxed in STR, using either +2 ot +1 tomes.. the +3's would only make a difference if an exceptional str rune was used as I started the uber builds a 18str.. 17 for the casuals assuming 28point):
1) (uber) a str based ranger with duel mineral II khopeshes, madstone boots, a bloodstone and a set of tharnes goggles
2) (moderatly uber) a str based ranger with a mineral II khopeshes, a +5 transmuting khopesh, madstone boots, backstabber gloves and a bloodstone
3) (casual) a str based ranger with 2 +5 transmuting khopeshes, and backstabber gloves (basically no raid gear, or expensive gear
4) (uninformed) a str based ranger with duel +5 holy longswords without power attack, no extra dps gear
5) (uninformed and unpopular) a sword and board fighter with a +5 holy longsword without power attack, no extra dps gear

Below are the DPS numbers that I calculated. I blanked out all acid damage, and only considered holy and slicing. I also added in 50% fortification (harry on normal) which somewhat diminishes the effectiveness of tharnes and bloodstones (this is estimated by cutting the crit range of the weapon in half for non-effect damage, effects arent affected by fortification). Buffs include: rage, 1 madstone rage, prayer, and +7 for inspire courage. Both buffed and unbuffed include haste, as its super rare to be without it.

BUFFED:
261.0 .. uber Strength Based Tempest Ranger (duel min II khopeshs, tharnes, bloodstone,madstone)
230.8 .. moderate Strength Based Tempest Ranger (min II khopesh main/+5 transmuter offhand, bloodstone, madstone,backstabber gloves)
198.1 .. casual Strength Based Tempest Ranger (+5 transmutering khopeshes)
125.9 .. uninformed Strength Based Tempest Ranger (+5 holy longswords)
51.4 .... uninformed sword and board fighter (+5 holy longsword)

UNBUFFED:
219.5 .. uber Strength Based Tempest Ranger without buffs (duel min II khopeshs, tharnes, bloodstone,madstone)
189.3 .. moderate Strength Based Tempest ranger without buffs (min II khopesh main/+5 transmuter offhand, bloodstone, madstone, backstabber gloves)
160.9 .. casual Strength Based Tempest ranger without buffs (+5 transmuting khopeshes)
92.0 .... uninformed Strength Based Tempest Ranger without buffs(longswords)
36.4 .... uninformed sword and board fighter without buffs(+5 holy longsword)


So, a group that is full of str-base-twinked-out and buffed rangers will be doing over 7 times the damage of a group made up of un-buffed sword and board fighters (aprox 3 times the dps of str based rangers with longswords). ITs easy to see how a combination of these two lower dps examples could result in a 4+ rounder. Hence, its very important to help people understand how to get past harry's DR.

Also, the uber player only does 37% more damage then the decently equiped casual ranger. Of course, this assumes that the casual player is informed enough to build his character properly.. though its pretty hard to mess up a str based ranger too badly. So, maybe a group full of these more casual but well built rangers might take harry out in 1.3 rounds vs. 1 round for the uber players. I don't think anyone would complain about a 1.3 round part 4. Also, the moderate player only does 16.5% more dps then the casual player.. and I would guess that many powergamers out there have a few characters in their roster that are equiped similarily.. whereas perhaps only their main character would have the best of everything.

Now, I tried to think about the various builds in terms of a plat value. I placed a value of 100k plat / hour of powergamer time for the purposes of evaluating an approximate plat value of raids required to get important gear. I took the number or runs that it takes me personally to get a given item (yes, i know some of you pulled tharnes the first time.. curse you). I guesstimated costs of non-raid gear items from the approximate AH values on Sarlona. I totally sandbagged the times for some of the raids, as now lots of people run shroud in the 30 minute time range, and vod in less then 20 including getting to quest. Still, there is always some wasted time here and there, and runs used to take longer.

Uber:
runs .. notional value (@100k plat/hour for raids, approx. AH value for non bound items)
32.0 ... 3,200,000 ... shroud runs (60min each) for weapons
20.0 ...... 800,000 ... vod runs (45min) needed for tharnes
20.0 ...... 666,667 ... reaver runs (20 min) for madstone boots
75.0 ... 7,500,000 ... runs / price for bloodstone
........ 12,166,667 ... total plat value

Moderate:
runs .. notional value (@100k plat/hour for raids, approx. AH value for non bound items)
16.0 ... 1,600,000 ... shroud runs (60min) for weapon
20.0 ...... 666,667 ... reaver runs (20 min) for madstone boots
75.0 ... 7,500,000 ... runs / price for bloodstone
n/a ...........50,000 ... plat spent on backstabber gloves
n/a .......... 50,000 ... plat spent on +5 transmuting khopesh
.......... 9,866,667... total plat value

Casual:
50,000 ..... plat spent on backstabber gloves
100,000 ... plat spent on 2, +5 transmuting khopeshs
150,000 ... total plat value (not a bad price for 68% of the dps)

Uninformed (Clueless):
priceless

Seems like sort of a weird thing to quantify, but I just wanted show much extra effort it takes for a powergamer to get a 32% advantage over a casual player. Its alot of time into the game to get that edge.

My conclusion is: It looks to me that the divide in perceived dps between power-gamers and casuals cannot be entirely attributed to expensive raid gear, as a casual gamer can keep up decently by just making a decent build and by being a bit informed about some moderately priced, decent gear.

I'll post the calcs in my dps thread, as it would make this post too long:
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=147

[maddmatt70]

It is worth noting that the uninformed ranger does so much more then the uninformed and unpopular S&B. This to me is a huge part of the issue is poorly built characters make a big difference for a raid in DDO. S&B, 100% ranged characters, etc.. These characters do not add to dps and really get carried through raids like the shroud. What is worse is they are making it more and more easy to level up characters so if anything we will see more and more of these lemons because the players playing them do not experience many growing pains.

[gfunk]

What is worse is they are making it more and more easy to level up characters so if anything we will see more and more of these lemons because the players playing them do not experience many growing pains.

Ah, the good ol' days of the experience point death penelty...

(I do kind of miss them).

**edit: note, I was pretty hard on the sword and board fighter.. I didnt give them any credit for haste boost (all numbers are with mod 8 abilities and enhancements)

[moops]

Hmmmm. . .Most Rangers I know use Rapiers. . . Would the numbers between Uber and Casusal then be closer?

[Roman]

My conclusion is: It looks to me that the divide in perceived dps between power-gamers and casuals cannot be entirely attributed to expensive raid gear, as a casual gamer can keep up decently by just making a decent build and by being a bit informed about some moderately priced, decent gear.
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=147

Allow me to offer living proof of that conclusion. I stopped crafting in November 2008 in anticipation of Mod9. I didnt want to waste ingredients on something that would be made obsolete by a new piece of Mod9 loot.

From November 2008 to now I have capped three toons that have no greensteel, and little or no raid loot. I perform just fine on all raids including SoS, VoD and the Shroud. High end gear is nice and certainly makes things easier, but it is NOT needed. A casual player can carry their own weight just fine with a decent build and a handful of easily attainable weapons.

And I consider myself a casual player these days. I'm lucky if I get 10 hours a week of play time anymore.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I think Im somewhere between the two.
Certainly play more often than casual....and my main is very well equiped.
Although less so on weapons than other items.

As far as DPS goes I think I'm also in the middle of the two.

My take on it has always been that I'm here to have fun....and enjoy playing INSIDE a quest....not standing around waiting for the perfect group, just so we can finish it faster and put up the next LFM and stand around waiting for the next perfect group...
Uhmm...yeah.

But I guess some people enjoy that.

I don't like failing a quest either....I don't like going broke cause of a bad group either.
But I'll take my chances.

IMO lets just get a group and go give it a try. If we can get the right mix...great!
If not....lets just go with what we can get.

Their is certainly a huge difference in DPS between some groups. I've seen both sides and many times can't even figure out why a certain group is so inferior to most others I've run with.

I do know that equipment matter a lot. IMO more than build.
But their are exceptions.

Mages don't really need any specific equipment to perfom well.
Neither do Rogues.

Good buffs...esp bard buffs make a huge difference.

Green steel is very good. But there are other good weps...esp if the build goes well with the weps.

I like to run with fun people.
Preferably to success, but as long as they are fun people the occasionaly failure is ok.

I hae to run with....well....not fun people. Doesn't matter how uber you are, or how much DPS you do....if you do something that takes the fun out of grouping with you, I'd rather not.
Sometimes I suck up the bad attitudes and continue....esp on a raid I really want to accomplish. But it leaves a bad taste in my mouth that I compromised my values to do so.

The DPS gap is getting worse. Those who do not have green steel are pretty far behind those who do.....usually. And it gets worse with every shroud run.
Cause eventually the ubers will have an uber wep (set) for any situation.

Hopefully the devs will leave normal for the casual guys and make elite for the elite.

[Hafeal]

Qft.

allow Me To Offer Living Proof Of That Conclusion. I Stopped Crafting In November 2008 In Anticipation Of Mod9. I Didnt Want To Waste Ingredients On Something That Would Be Made Obsolete By A New Piece Of Mod9 Loot.

From November 2008 To Now I Have Capped Three Toons That Have No Greensteel, And Little Or No Raid Loot. I Perform Just Fine On All Raids Including Sos, Vod And The Shroud. High End Gear Is Nice And Certainly Makes Things Easier, But It Is Not Needed. A Casual Player Can Carry Their Own Weight Just Fine With A Decent Build And A Handful Of Easily Attainable Weapons.

And I Consider Myself A Casual Player These Days. I'm Lucky If I Get 10 Hours A Week Of Play Time Anymore.

[gfunk]

Hmmmm. . .Most Rangers I know use Rapiers. . . Would the numbers between Uber and Casusal then be closer?

Yeah, and those would be dex based as well which means their dps falls even further. I didn't bring up the multitude of other builds that people play because I was trying to keep it relatively simple. I just wanted to illustrate that "casual" doesn't have to mean low dps, and that greensteel weapons are not neccesary for efficient shrouds (though they are nice to have). I would guess that nine str based rogues (+1 bard, and a cleric or two), with duel +5 transmuting khopeshes would have no problem taking out Harry in 1 round.... no greensteel required.

In general, just by rolling a well built rogue, or a twf khopesh user (regardless of class), your dps could be (situationaly) ahead of many fully equiped power gaming types who are using less powerful greensteel weapon types. Of course, most of the more experienced players I know already know this, and only discriminate against unknown or casual players because they are afraid that they will either have a horrible build or that they haven't yet learned the importance of listening.

The biggest advantages that more experienced gamers might bring are: knowing how to build a character, knowing when to use what weapon, knowing how to mitigate damage, and of course: communicating (which doesn't always come with experience).

p.s. Stop picking on my ranger... I'm already feeling inadequate with all the monk-splash ranger freaks out there

[negative]

Just going to throw this out there, as something else that maybe effecting the precieved DPS gap. A lot of casual players I run into are squishy. They have a much higher chance of dieing in part 4 and 5 of the shroud. Dieing in part 4 has a major impact on your DPS in part 4, being squishy makes it harder on your clerics who may not be able to keep up if they are also casual, and if you get too many people like that in the same group, what could have been a two rounder from a pure dps perspective becomes a nightmare. Throw in some lag....

I dunno, maybe its off-topic.

[gfunk]

Just going to throw this out there, as something else that maybe effecting the precieved DPS gap. A lot of casual players I run into are squishy. They have a much higher chance of dieing in part 4 and 5 of the shroud. Dieing in part 4 has a major impact on your DPS in part 4, being squishy makes it harder on your clerics who may not be able to keep up if they are also casual, and if you get too many people like that in the same group, what could have been a two rounder from a pure dps perspective becomes a nightmare. Throw in some lag....

I dunno, maybe its off-topic.

You don't need good gear to be non-squishy in part 4 and 5. We had a naked sorc meleeing harry in part 5 yesterday, and he didn't die because of careful positioning. When I run my cleric, I find that its only the super-low hp builds who get unlucky with a fireball to the face that die (or the lag monster gets them sometimes). As long as the DPS is good, and the melees have reasonable hp (or have evasion) then they won't die before the clerics run out of mana.

And clericing shroud doesn't require alot of gear. I used to make do with some elf-craft armor and a wizardry V item (these items are virtually free nowadays), before I upgraded to blue dragon scale and shroud stick/sp items.

What I am trying to say that there is a seperation between being casual, and being a poor player and they are not neccesarily dependant. Take a group with 2 clerics who have only elf craft armor and moderate sp items, and a bunch of rangers, rogues and barbs with transmuting khopeshes and you will have no problem taking harry down in 2 rounds (or less)... no uber gear required.

Its when people have just horrible builds, the wrong weapons, or over/under heal when things start to go bad... and that has nothing to do with needing raid gear.

[negative]

I wasn't implying a need for raid gear. On the contrary, I was pointing out the same thing you have, that there are fundamental differnces between various types of players, from knowledge, skill, build, etc., that probably add up to much more than the effect of gear.

Hmm, maybe I see your point though, but correct me if this isn't your point. There is a distinct difference between a poor player, and a casual player. A casual player, who still thinks about what he is doing, can run with the best and probably not stick out that much. A poor player will, no matter how much they play or how much gear they get, still be a poor player.

[gfunk]

A casual player, who still thinks about what he is doing, can run with the best and probably not stick out that much. A poor player will, no matter how much they play or how much gear they get, still be a poor player.

Thats pretty much it.. although other people have said it in other places, I was just trying to quantify it somewhat.