Pally Monk Unarmed Melee with Pally Damage Enhancements?

[Shroonith]

Also, about that Metamagic feat choice, would Maximize affect Healing Ki (or is it like a Cleric's Heal)?

--------empower healing for healing ki. extend will affect stuff like walk of the sun theoretically (have not tested).


Let me throw this out there and see what you guys think of it.
12 fighter
2 pally
6 monk
bludgeon weapon focus/greater focus +2 to hit
bludgeon weapon specialization greater specialization +4 to damage.
twf specced.
Fighter kensai 2 (possible fist for focused weapon) +8 to str
stunnig blow
6 monk gets tier 2 wind stance.

I have been thinking about this for one my human fighter for a while Or going 12 ftr 6 pally and 2 monk. i am currently 12/2/2 bludgeon specced using greensteel warhammers.

----------You will lose DPS using fists sadly. Your Ki generation will be awesome though, with kensai's synergy. One of the main synergies your losing without a lot of paladin is healing and metamagic. 8RNG/6FTR/6MNK or 8PLD/6RNG/6MNK would be great vs both UD and EO.

For the OP, 15pld/3mnk/2ftr(or 2rng) is also viable.

[Aesop]

I certainly see where you're coming from with this one, Baddax. The Fighter speed boosts, the Kensai bonuses, and the feat specializations would definitely add up to more DPS. By the way, the Prestige description for Kensai says that the Insight Bonus only lasts a "short" time. Any idea what that is?

If you went the remaining four levels as Monk (meaning 12Ftr/2Pal/6Mnk), that would open up the Fists of Light and Healing Ki. That would allow the self-healing option that Shroonith was talking about.

How about 12Ftr/4Pal/4Mnk? You'd still get the Fists of Light and Healing Ki, but also a (minimal) Divine Favor and some extra Pally stuff, like another Lay on Hands and Immunity to Fear and Disease.

I've always been kind of partial to Paladins, though, so that's why I used Pally as the main foundation for my concept. But I think Fighter is definitely an option (and might actually be better from a melee standpoint).


Thanks,
Ngorongoro

12/4/4 you loose out on 1 tier of PrE (the Monk one), tier 2 stance, Wis Enhancement 2 and a few more thingies.

I actually have a variant that's actually an S&B character that's 12/6/2 Fighter/Paladin/? may take rogue those last 2 levels just to get my UMD and Intimidate Maxed out... evasion is nothing to sneeze at either

Aesop

[Ngorongoro]

So, based on some great suggestions here, I've tried to plan out a Halfling variation of the original concept (see OP) that makes use of Cunning and Guile.

Here's my sketch of the Halfling variant, comparing what went differently from the Human variant.


Stats
Str: 14 (+4 level ups + 2 Favor Tome + 6 Item) = 26 +2 Rage Pot = 28
Dex: 16 (+1 Tome + 1 Halfling Dex + 6 Item) = 24
Con: 14 (+6 Item) = 20
Int: 11 (+1 Tome) = 12
Wis: 9 (+1 Tome + 6 Item) = 16
Cha: 14 (+3 Pally Cha +1 Tome + 6 Item) = 24

The main difference from the Human is that, instead of having to use a +2 Dex Tome somewhere, I used 4 +1 Tomes (Int at level 1, Dex before taking Imp 2WF, and Wis and Cha somewhere). This is actually better in my eyes since four +1 Tomes are a lot easier to swallow than one +2 Dex Tome (a lot cheaper at any rate).

Other than that, Str is lagging just one level behind the Human (26 vs. 28); not really a big deal at all since the Halfling Cunning/Guile more than makes up for it and Halflings get that size attack bonus anyways.

Also, my Int is a lot better (12 vs. 8 for the Human). This gives me 1 extra skill point per level, which is crucial for opening up Diplomacy, as recommended by others here.


Feats
The feats are pretty much the same. Have to have the 2WF chain of feats.

But because the Halfling loses out one feat to the Human, I sacrificed Weapon Focus Bludgeon for Stunning Blow. Then I switched out Extend for Empower Healing (or maybe Maximize if Max affects Healing Ki). Losing Extend for now is not a big deal, since this character doesn't have Zeal at the current level cap anyways. Once the next mod comes, I can take Zeal and take Extend for my last feat.

In short, all the feats are the same to the Human, but I lose out on Bludgeon Focus; again, not a big deal since the Halfling makes up for it in other ways.


Skills
With the increased Intelligence, the Halfling variant has the same skills as the Human, with the added bonus of having a maxed out Diplomacy.

My level 16 Diplomacy with a 24 Cha will be 26. Add in a Heroism, an item, and it could get up into the mid-40's, depending on buffs. That should be good enough.

And like I said, I still get my 16.5 UMD at level 16 with a 24 Cha. Just no Human Versatility to boost it an extra bit.


Enhancements
Of course, this is where things start to look very different from the Human variant.

This is the Halfling breakdown:

Halfling side
Halfling Dex I (2 AP's)
Halfling Cunning IV (10 AP's total)
Halfling Guile IV (10 AP's total)
Racial Toughness II (3 AP's total)

Monk side
Improved Recovery I (2 AP's)
Fists of Light (1 AP)
Adept of Wind (3 AP's total)
Adept of Flame (3 AP's total)

Pally side
Pally Cha III (12 AP's total)
Pally Toughness II (3 AP's total)
Pally Extra Turning II (3 AP's total)
Pally Devotion II (3 AP's total)
Extra Smite Evil II (3 AP's total)
Extra Lay on Hands II (3 AP's total)
Divine Might I (1 AP)
Divine Sacrifice I (1 AP)
Exalted Smite I (1 AP)


I know the recommendation was to drop Exalted Smite altogether, but I had one AP left anyways, so I figured I'd just take Exalted Smite I.

If I'm lucky enough to loot a +3 Cha Tome, then that opens up Divine Might II. With 12 extra AP's coming in the next mod, I can spend it on Divine Sacrifice II, Divine Might II and the 2nd tier of Knight of the Chalice.

The big differences with the Human here are:

• Halfling loses out on 25 HP
• Halfling gains +8 damage in Sneak Attacks
• Halfling loses out on a few smites and the second tier of Exalted Smite

With Pally Devotion at 20% and Monk Improved Recovery at 10% and Empower Healing at another 50% (or Maximize at 100% if it works), the healing I get from Healing Ki should be nice. So I can employ the strategy that Shroonith recommended of just spamming Divine Sacrifice.

One thing that I am concerned about though, is whether mobs in the next mod will have better Fortification, thereby negating any Sneak Attack damage. At least with Exalted Smite, I get double my Cha bonus added in, so it increases the damage a lot, even with enemy fortification.

But anyways, this Halfling variant seems a lot more survivable (especially with Diplo), even despite the lower HP. It's not as flexible, though, since my stats seem pretty much locked in at the above, with no way to shift a point here or there as with Humans (which actually doesn't seem like a big deal).

Please feel free to add or comment on any other advantages or disadvantages for either Humans or Halflings (or any other race even) that I may have overlooked.


Thanks!
-Ngorongoro

[Shroonith]

Paladin Exalted Smite I: Using this attack, you call on the paladin's ability to strike down evil creatures, gaining twice your Charisma bonus to your attack roll, a damage bonus based on your paladin level, and +1 to your weapon's critical damage multiplier. This enhancement also decreases your cooldown between smites to 5 seconds.

Exact same bonus damage as a normal smite evil. Based on Paladin level. Charisma only affects attack bonus.

I would also really consider switching toughness and stunning blow to stunning fist and empower.

Take water stance, at least level 1, instead of exalted. 10% reduction in casting cost for 2 minutes(if extend works) is a great buff to spam on your party.

In mod9, consider picking up way of the tortoise, for extra HP and concentration.

[baddax]

isnt the Dc for stunning fist based off you monk levels? if so your stunning fist dc will be to low? i realize they are adding weighted im but not sure what kind of dc this build would have.

[Ngorongoro]

Paladin Exalted Smite I: Using this attack, you call on the paladin's ability to strike down evil creatures, gaining twice your Charisma bonus to your attack roll, a damage bonus based on your paladin level, and +1 to your weapon's critical damage multiplier. This enhancement also decreases your cooldown between smites to 5 seconds.

Exact same bonus damage as a normal smite evil. Based on Paladin level. Charisma only affects attack bonus.

You know, the more I think about it, the more I think I had it backwards. I used to think that Divine Sacrifice wouldn't be much use and that Exalted Smite would be my main special attack. But I think you're right, Shroonith -- Divine Sacrifice is much more useful. With only 7 Smites that replenish at 1 every 90 seconds, it's not really an attack that I can use regularly.

But now I'm actually starting to worry that my SP pool won't be enough. Even if the Fists of Light and Healing Ki cover the HP loss of Divine Sacrifice, I still have no way to replenish SP (short of drinking mana pots, which is unrealistic). I imagine I'll need some SP for resists; after that, the bulk of my SP will be used for Divine Favor and Zeal. Since those don't last too long, I don't know how much of my SP I can spare for Divine Sacrifices.

The Halfling variant I sketched above would have about 250 SP (with a PoP X or Wiz IV item; I don't really want to assume Shroud or Raid gear). Let's say I set aside 150 for resists, Divine Favor and Zeal. That leaves 100 Divine Sacrifices between shrines. Let's say I use a DS every 6 seconds (they have a 3 second cooldown, but I'll be interjecting other attacks too). So my 100 SP would last 600 seconds of fighting. So I could stretch my DS's to 10 minutes worth of fighting. Think that would be enough between shrines?

EDIT: Yeah, upon further consideration, that's actually probably plenty for just about every quest in this game. There's actually probably a lot less than 10 minutes of straight duke-ing it out between most shrines.

Anyways, it's more reason for me to bump up my Wisdom, like others here have already recommended. And maybe try to fit in the Monk Wisdom Enhancements.

I would also really consider switching toughness and stunning blow to stunning fist and empower.

As Braddax notes, I'm not sure how well I'd land Stunning Fist with only 6 Monk levels and relatively low Wisdom.

Also, I already took Empower Healing. Instead of giving up Stunning Blow, I basically gave up Extend till the next mod and dropped Weapon Focus Bludgeon.


Thanks!
-Ngorongoro

[Shroonith]

The DC is 10 + half monk level + wisdom modifier

with a 28str and an 18wis (listed +2mnk enhancement):
SB - DC: 19base
SF - DC: 17base

2 difference of DC, but one allows you to get an extra feat

[Ngorongoro]

The DC is 10 + half monk level + wisdom modifier

with a 28str and an 18wis (listed +2mnk enhancement):
SB - DC: 19base
SF - DC: 17base

2 difference of DC, but one allows you to get an extra feat

Yeah, I guess the difference isn't actually that much. But I was under the impression that Weighted only worked with Stunning Blow. That's really where the difference comes into play, no?

[Shroonith]

on handwraps, because of a bug, weighted affects neither stunning blow or stunning fist DC. At the moment, because of this, id consider dropping both.

more numbers about exalted smite.
with a max of 8/rest and +1/90 seconds, in a 6 minute boss fight, you get 12 exalted smites.
with a 18-20 crit range, 3/20 will benefit from exalted's crit multiplier.

so, 12 per boss battle, 3/20 crit rate: 36/20 x both hands = 3.6(with multiplier being x4 vs x2) actual crit smites worth of damage per battle with likely over 3000 hits. for 17AP. Obviously if you stun a lot, then it will be useful vs trash, but I am just not a fan of it.

edit: attacks with both hands

[Faethe]

Just a wee note: I peeked at the Knight of the Chalice preview thread and noticed that Energy of the Templar I and Courage of Good I are pre-reqs for KotC I [& if you go for KotC II Courage of Good II is a pre-req for that...]

Looks like a fun build!