Dwarven Axe VS Khopesh VS Bastard Sword

[Asketes]

[EDIT for 2011]

Since this thread comes up #1 on google when you search: "dwarven axe vs khopesh or ddo khopesh" (maybe a +1 is in order for getting a horrible (and hilarious) thread as #1 on google?

Short Version:
1) Khopesh is better dps than all other TWF weapons
2) moderate fort situations the D.Axe gets close to the khopesh
3) heavy fort situations (there really isn't enough to consider this viable), the D.axe surpasses the Khopesh
4) no clue about the bastard sword with the glancing blow changes


Side note:
If you wanna see me act silly and pick fights because I seriously didn't know better, read the whole thread
Keep in mind, this is all super old, no starting fights over stuff that was said two years ago


[/EDIT for 2011]

**EDIT**
my initial findings were incorrect due to ignorant knowledge on my behalf.

Having been informed of the proper way to calculate the DPS between these three weapons

See post # 8 for me (bypass all my pi$$ing and moaning )

AND

Post # 22 by Gfunk (the number crunching genius who is the king of DPS calculation) for pick, Dwarven Axe, Bastard Sword, and Khopesh on Fighter Kensai and Fighter Stalwart Defender

I'm testing the difference between Khopesh, Bastard Swords, and Dwarven Axes.

This is what I came up with.

Controlled Facts:
Improved Critical feat
Not assuming any damage addition except for base damage and weapon quality
100 swings for the test
Each swing is considered a hit
Each swing does the median damage allowable by the weapon
Khopesh median damage: (1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10)/10 = 5.5
Dwarven Axe median damage: (1+2+3+4+8+6+7+8)/8=4.5 x 2 = 9
Bastard Sword median damage: (1+2+3+4+8+6+7+8)/8=4.5 x 2 = 9
The amount of crit hits is exact to the percent of possible crits
All crits are considered confirmed
All possible crits are accounted for as confirmed and actual
Possible crits are taken away from normal attacks
After initial test I set out to find what the Damage Per Minute would be for these guys assuming Greater Two Weapon Fightint (83 swings per hand, assuming BAB 16)

The Weapons:

Greensteel Khopesh Blank
Damage: 1d10+5 per swing
Crit range: 17-20 (20% of the time is a Crit)
Crit multiplier: x3
Median Damage: 5.5
Possible Crits: 10% (12-30)

Greensteel Dwarven Axe Blank
Damage: 2d8+5 per swing
Crit range: 19-20 (10% of the time is a Crit)
Crit Multiplier: x3
Median Damage: 9
Possible Crits: 5% (18-45)

Bastard Sword
Damage: 2d8+5 per swing
Crit Range: 17-20
Crit Multiplier: x2
Median Damage: 9
Possible Crits: 10% (10-28)

TEST 1 (100 swings):

Kopesh:
100 swings total
70 Normal Hits = (5.5 + 5) x 70 = 735
20 Crit Hits = ((5.5+5) x 3) x 20 = 630
10 possible Crits = ((5.5 + 5) x 3) x 10 = 315
Total Damage = 1680

Dwarven Axe:
100 swings total
85 Normal Hits = (9 + 5) x 85 = 1190
10 Crit Hits = ((9 + 5) x 3) x 10 = 420
5 Possible Crits = ((9 + 5) x 3) x 5 = 210
Total Damage = 1820

Bastard Sword:
100 swings total
70 Normal Hits = (9 + 5) x 70 = 980
20 Crit Hits = ((9 + 5) x 2) x 20 = 560
10 Possible Crits = ((9 + 5) x 2) x 10 = 280
Total Damage: 1820


From what I have come up with it seems that the Dwaven Axe and Bastard Swords do slightly more damage coming in at 1820 points of damage; where the Khopesh weighed in at only 1680 points of damage.


TEST 2 (Damage for one minute of GTW):

Khopesh:
58 Normal Swings = (5.5 + 5) x 58 = 609
17 Crit Hits = ((5.5 + 5) x 3) x 17 = 535
8 Possible Crit = ((5.5 + 5) x 3) x 8 = 252
Total: 1396 x2 (two weapons) = 2792 points of damage per minute

Dwaven Axe:
71 Normal Swings = (9 + 5) x 71 = 994
8 Crit Hits = ((9 + 5) x 3) x 8 = 336
4 Possible Crit = ((9 + 5) x 3) x 4 = 168
total: 1498 x 2 (two weapons) = 2996 points of damage per minute

Bastard Sword:
58 Normal Swings = (9 + 5) x 58 = 812
17 Crit Hits = ((9 + 5) x 2) x 17 = 476
8 Possible Crit = ((9 + 5) x 2) x 8 = 224
Total: 1512 x2 (two weapons) = 3024 points of damage per minute

So it seems for the first minute, Bastard Sword does a small amount more DPS than the Dwarven Axe. But any longer than a minute, the extra crit multiplier of the Dwarven axe starts to catch up to the Bastard Sword.

Conclusion:
Short term (trash dps) fighting, the Bastard Sword is the answer
Long term (raid boss/red name) fighting, the Dwarven Axe is the answer

The Khopesh, although crits A LOT, just cannot keep up with it's lower base damage, which keeps the crit damage low as well.

Thanks for reading.

-Rob

[KatanAztar]

Strength, power attack, bloodstone, bursting effects, etc, do not affect all these weapons equally which are giving you results that aren't very useful. Kopesh is way higher than the bastard sword using realistic data.

[QuantumFX]

Conclusion:
Short term (trash dps) fighting, the Bastard Sword is the answer
Long term (raid boss/red name) fighting, the Dwarven Axe is the answer

The Khopesh, although crits A LOT, just cannot keep up with it's lower base damage, which keeps the crit damage low as well.

You have totally missed the point as to why the kopesh is better.

[captain1z]

You have totally missed the point as to why the kopesh is better.

explain.

[Monkey_Archer]

explain.

Besides pointing out the flaws in your calculations....
Run your numbers again with +10 for 30 strength and +5 for powerattack

[captain1z]

without any hard numbers behind how I feel, just from experience alone............

I say the khopesh is the better weapon. Why? because the crit range is indeed 19-20 but when u have improved crit its 17-20 and any burst effects will go off even if your opponent is immune to crits.

The data you posted does not take this into account.

The data as it stands has a plain +5 weapon of each variety attacking a creature that can be critted 100 times. Based on this alone the dwarven axe may pull ahead but the amount of time required for this to happen is not realisticly the length of a typical encounter in DDO unless we are talking a raid boss.

Burst effects are gunna widen the dps gap and you cant proclaim a weapon to be the winner until you take this into account.

Real world test would be 6 identical warriors each attacking 6 identical mobs 100 times.
3 warriors have vanilla +5 weapons the other 3 have +1 holy burst weapons.
The mobs each have 10,000 hps and can be hit on a roll of 2 or better.

Which warrior drops his mob the lowest or kills it 1st?

I'd wager the holy burst khopesh. Its why some barbarians use rapiers.

[QuantumFX]

explain.

The OP assumes that the weilder of the weapon is a gimp.

To OP ignores the following sources of precrit damage:
Strength
Enhancement bonus to the weapon
Power Attack
Favored Enemy
Bardsong

He also ignores the following sources of Crit damage
Burst damage
Seeker

The OP demonstrates a lack of knowledge about how crits operate. The kopesh amplifies damage twice as often as a Dwarven axe and twice as powerfully as a Bastard Sword. The sources of damage I outlined above are twice as powerful for the kopesh.

If you don't understand how this works: The crit profile of a weapon is (threat range) multiplied by (Crit multiplier -1). A Kopesh is 8 (4 for the 17-20 crit range and x2 for the multiplier) The Dwarven Axe is 4 (2 for the 19-20 crit range and x2 for the multiplier) The Bastard Sword is also 4 (4 for the crit range x1 for the multiplier)

[Asketes]

hey POSTERS,

here's an idea.

Quit being self righteous boobs and explain to me what I did wrong.

Quit acting like a bunch of know it all self-righteous _-_-_- and say, "hey you need to add str and PA into the mix to see the khopesh shine."

I haven't been playing since I was a little zygote like you guys, I have a life. So I don't know everything there is to know about this game. I was posting what I KNEW (see my signature if you want proof).



If what I post is wrong, tell me WHY, don't just say, 'say the OP is an idiot."


Tell me "why" the khopesh is better. This does not help, and just makes you look sad:

You have totally missed the point as to why the kopesh is better.

Don't even post in my thread if you are going to act like a child

Strength, power attack, bloodstone, bursting effects, etc, do not affect all these weapons equally which are giving you results that aren't very useful. Kopesh is way higher than the bastard sword using realistic data.

bursting effects are only semi-reliant on crit multiplier (just the amount of times you crit). They rely on the multiplier to allow a set amount of potential damage to affect the mob, not to be calculated by it.

example: good burst: "...additionally all monsters of evil alignment take an additional 3d6 on a critical hitfor weapons with a x2 multiplier, 4d6 for x3, adn 5d6 for x4. (The main comparison was D.axe and khopesh, a buddy wanted B.swords in there.. FOR D.axe and khopesh the burst effects will remain the same amount of damage at 4D6, just at a differenct fluctuation of frequency.)

Besides pointing out the flaws in your calculations....
Run your numbers again with +10 for 30 strength and +5 for powerattack

Although rather dastardly, you were probably only 1 of 2 posters who at least informed me how I could see a whole different set of numbers.

The OP assumes that the weilder of the weapon is a gimp.

To OP ignores the following sources of precrit damage:
Strength
Enhancement bonus to the weapon
Power Attack
Favored Enemy
Bardsong

He also ignores the following sources of Crit damage
Burst damage
Seeker

The OP demonstrates a lack of knowledge about how crits operate. The kopesh amplifies damage twice as often as a Dwarven axe and twice as powerfully as a Bastard Sword. The sources of damage I outlined above are twice as powerful for the kopesh.

If you don't understand how this works: The crit profile of a weapon is (threat range) multiplied by (Crit multiplier -1). A Kopesh is 8 (4 for the 17-20 crit range and x2 for the multiplier) The Dwarven Axe is 4 (2 for the 19-20 crit range and x2 for the multiplier) The Bastard Sword is also 4 (4 for the crit range x1 for the multiplier)

You my friend are just being rude. instead of criticizing me as a person, give me what I need to know. Don't talk about me, saying I am demonstrating a lack of knowledge and how I am stupid. OF COURSE I AM, I don't eat this game for breakfast 24 hr/day.

oh and reread my post, I included the +5 enhancment DUDE. what a waste of my time you are.

Quit your self-stimulating talk, and explain (like you did in the 2nd part of your post)


I find it funny you guys like to have diarrhea of the mouth when it comes to telling people off, telling people how they are wrong, and why you are sooo better (i would be too if I bought that much lube for the soul) BUT you don't actually tell people WHY they are wrong, without sound like an SOB.



Here are my redone numbers (thanks to those that helped, and no thanks to those who acted like panzys)



Assume a 30 Str
Assume PA (+5)
total: 18 modifier to damage

Kopesh:
100 swings total
70 Normal Hits = (5.5 + 23) x 70 = 1995
20 Crit Hits = ((5.5+23) x 3) x 20 = 1700
10 possible Crits = ((5.5 + 23) x 3) x 10 = 855
Total Damage = 4550

Dwarven Axe:
100 swings total
85 Normal Hits = (9 + 23) x 85 = 2720
10 Crit Hits = ((9 + 23) x 3) x 10 = 960
5 Possible Crits = ((9 + 23) x 3) x 5 = 480
Total Damage = 4160

Bastard Sword:
100 swings total
70 Normal Hits = (9 + 23) x 70 = 2240
20 Crit Hits = ((9 + 23) x 2) x 20 = 1280
10 Possible Crits = ((9 + 23) x 2) x 10 = 640
Total Damage: 4160


So I redid the numbers for the 100 swing test. It seems that this follows to what people say.

Given real life situations, the khopesh takes the lead with the higher crit range and multiplier.

[Asketes]

reposted the above by accident

[stazer]

[QUOTE=Asketes;2166312]hey POSTERS,

here's an idea.

Quit being self righteous boobs and explain to me what I did wrong.

Quit acting like a bunch of know it all self-righteous _-_-_- and say, "hey you need to add str and PA into the mix to see the khopesh shine."

I haven't been playing since I was a little zygote like you guys, I have a life. So I don't know everything there is to know about this game. I was posting what I KNEW (see my signature if you want proof).

You sir get the thumbs up for the day! Pretentious hyper nerds really know how to suck the fun out of games. T

however you may not want my support because I play so infrequently, not by choice I love this game, that I got confused by the splash screen which said mod 9.

[Justicar]

hahahahaha, you tell em man

hey POSTERS,

here's an idea.

Quit being self righteous boobs and explain to me what I did wrong.

Quit acting like a bunch of know it all self-righteous _-_-_- and say, "hey you need to add str and PA into the mix to see the khopesh shine."

I haven't been playing since I was a little zygote like you guys, I have a life. So I don't know everything there is to know about this game. I was posting what I KNEW (see my signature if you want proof).

You my friend are just being rude. instead of criticizing me as a person, give me what I need to know. Don't talk about me, saying I am demonstrating a lack of knowledge and how I am stupid. OF COURSE I AM, I don't eat this game for breakfast 24 hr/day

[Havenor]

I am sure that this has been addressed by somebody, somewhere, but as this is a relatively long thread with a lot of data flying around, i didn't actually see it. But my question is; does this particular set of equations look off to anyone but me?

Each swing does the median damage allowable by the weapon
Khopesh median damage: (1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10)/10 = 5.5
Dwarven Axe median damage: (1+2+3+4+8+6+7+8)/8=4.5 x 2 = 9
Bastard Sword median damage: (1+2+3+4+8+6+7+8)/8=4.5 x 2 = 9

If this has been noted already, feel free to ignore this.

[CrimsonEagle]

Necro thread?

[Quaylin]

Really doesn't matter it all depends on the rolls anyway, yea u may have a higher percentage wise but, if i roll 10 18s back to back it changes everything, its all chance there will never be a perfect calculation so therefore use anyone u like. Its all percentage based when in fact u never know what ur gonna roll.

[naii2526]

#1 search at google for "bastard sword ddo"

[Asketes]

#1 search at google for "bastard sword ddo"

haha that too

[Sixclicks]

You need to consider factors such as a seeker item which every melee should have. I also recommend you do the calculation with elemental effects included since a 3x multiplier compared to a 2x multiplier will make a big difference when including elemental burst and blast effects. For example I did the calculations with a green steel lit2 khopesh, bastard sword, and dwarven axe. In that situation the green steel khopesh does significantly more than the other two. When fighting creatures that cannot be crit, the green steel bastard sword came out on top with slightly more damage.

[Comegetsome]

In terms of GS
Khopesh > BS/DA when fort<50%
Khopesh=DA/BS when fort=50%
DA/BS > Khopesh when fort>50%

with the upcoming weapon die normalization
a khopesh will became more powerful in comparison against it exotic friends both epic and GS unless they nerf khopesh or buff DA/BS
1.5*1d8/2*1d8 10%x3 crit will surely deal more dmg than 1.5*1d10/2*1d10 5%x3/10%x2 crit up to like 75% fort

[Mahalko128]

As of Update 20 Path 1, the only reason that Khopeshes could be considered as weaker than Bastard Swords or Dwarven Axes is that there simply are no good high level Khopesh rares. Not compared to the Bastard Swords and Dwarven Axes, at least.

[Battlehawke]

I have yet to see any Obscenity Items, but with today's update a +6 Obscenity Khopesh of Feeding/Draining or any item of +6 Obscenity of Feeding/Draining should allow players another option besides named weapons of Life Stealing.......even with the last nerf..
...it's definitely a small game equalizer "if" they exist.

Battlehawke