Dwarven Axe VS Khopesh VS Bastard Sword

[Asketes]

[EDIT for 2011]

Since this thread comes up #1 on google when you search: "dwarven axe vs khopesh or ddo khopesh" (maybe a +1 is in order for getting a horrible (and hilarious) thread as #1 on google?

Short Version:
1) Khopesh is better dps than all other TWF weapons
2) moderate fort situations the D.Axe gets close to the khopesh
3) heavy fort situations (there really isn't enough to consider this viable), the D.axe surpasses the Khopesh
4) no clue about the bastard sword with the glancing blow changes


Side note:
If you wanna see me act silly and pick fights because I seriously didn't know better, read the whole thread
Keep in mind, this is all super old, no starting fights over stuff that was said two years ago


[/EDIT for 2011]

**EDIT**
my initial findings were incorrect due to ignorant knowledge on my behalf.

Having been informed of the proper way to calculate the DPS between these three weapons

See post # 8 for me (bypass all my pi$$ing and moaning )

AND

Post # 22 by Gfunk (the number crunching genius who is the king of DPS calculation) for pick, Dwarven Axe, Bastard Sword, and Khopesh on Fighter Kensai and Fighter Stalwart Defender

I'm testing the difference between Khopesh, Bastard Swords, and Dwarven Axes.

This is what I came up with.

Controlled Facts:
Improved Critical feat
Not assuming any damage addition except for base damage and weapon quality
100 swings for the test
Each swing is considered a hit
Each swing does the median damage allowable by the weapon
Khopesh median damage: (1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10)/10 = 5.5
Dwarven Axe median damage: (1+2+3+4+8+6+7+8)/8=4.5 x 2 = 9
Bastard Sword median damage: (1+2+3+4+8+6+7+8)/8=4.5 x 2 = 9
The amount of crit hits is exact to the percent of possible crits
All crits are considered confirmed
All possible crits are accounted for as confirmed and actual
Possible crits are taken away from normal attacks
After initial test I set out to find what the Damage Per Minute would be for these guys assuming Greater Two Weapon Fightint (83 swings per hand, assuming BAB 16)

The Weapons:

Greensteel Khopesh Blank
Damage: 1d10+5 per swing
Crit range: 17-20 (20% of the time is a Crit)
Crit multiplier: x3
Median Damage: 5.5
Possible Crits: 10% (12-30)

Greensteel Dwarven Axe Blank
Damage: 2d8+5 per swing
Crit range: 19-20 (10% of the time is a Crit)
Crit Multiplier: x3
Median Damage: 9
Possible Crits: 5% (18-45)

Bastard Sword
Damage: 2d8+5 per swing
Crit Range: 17-20
Crit Multiplier: x2
Median Damage: 9
Possible Crits: 10% (10-28)

TEST 1 (100 swings):

Kopesh:
100 swings total
70 Normal Hits = (5.5 + 5) x 70 = 735
20 Crit Hits = ((5.5+5) x 3) x 20 = 630
10 possible Crits = ((5.5 + 5) x 3) x 10 = 315
Total Damage = 1680

Dwarven Axe:
100 swings total
85 Normal Hits = (9 + 5) x 85 = 1190
10 Crit Hits = ((9 + 5) x 3) x 10 = 420
5 Possible Crits = ((9 + 5) x 3) x 5 = 210
Total Damage = 1820

Bastard Sword:
100 swings total
70 Normal Hits = (9 + 5) x 70 = 980
20 Crit Hits = ((9 + 5) x 2) x 20 = 560
10 Possible Crits = ((9 + 5) x 2) x 10 = 280
Total Damage: 1820


From what I have come up with it seems that the Dwaven Axe and Bastard Swords do slightly more damage coming in at 1820 points of damage; where the Khopesh weighed in at only 1680 points of damage.


TEST 2 (Damage for one minute of GTW):

Khopesh:
58 Normal Swings = (5.5 + 5) x 58 = 609
17 Crit Hits = ((5.5 + 5) x 3) x 17 = 535
8 Possible Crit = ((5.5 + 5) x 3) x 8 = 252
Total: 1396 x2 (two weapons) = 2792 points of damage per minute

Dwaven Axe:
71 Normal Swings = (9 + 5) x 71 = 994
8 Crit Hits = ((9 + 5) x 3) x 8 = 336
4 Possible Crit = ((9 + 5) x 3) x 4 = 168
total: 1498 x 2 (two weapons) = 2996 points of damage per minute

Bastard Sword:
58 Normal Swings = (9 + 5) x 58 = 812
17 Crit Hits = ((9 + 5) x 2) x 17 = 476
8 Possible Crit = ((9 + 5) x 2) x 8 = 224
Total: 1512 x2 (two weapons) = 3024 points of damage per minute

So it seems for the first minute, Bastard Sword does a small amount more DPS than the Dwarven Axe. But any longer than a minute, the extra crit multiplier of the Dwarven axe starts to catch up to the Bastard Sword.

Conclusion:
Short term (trash dps) fighting, the Bastard Sword is the answer
Long term (raid boss/red name) fighting, the Dwarven Axe is the answer

The Khopesh, although crits A LOT, just cannot keep up with it's lower base damage, which keeps the crit damage low as well.

Thanks for reading.

-Rob

[KatanAztar]

Strength, power attack, bloodstone, bursting effects, etc, do not affect all these weapons equally which are giving you results that aren't very useful. Kopesh is way higher than the bastard sword using realistic data.

[QuantumFX]

Conclusion:
Short term (trash dps) fighting, the Bastard Sword is the answer
Long term (raid boss/red name) fighting, the Dwarven Axe is the answer

The Khopesh, although crits A LOT, just cannot keep up with it's lower base damage, which keeps the crit damage low as well.

You have totally missed the point as to why the kopesh is better.

[captain1z]

You have totally missed the point as to why the kopesh is better.

explain.

[Monkey_Archer]

explain.

Besides pointing out the flaws in your calculations....
Run your numbers again with +10 for 30 strength and +5 for powerattack

[captain1z]

without any hard numbers behind how I feel, just from experience alone............

I say the khopesh is the better weapon. Why? because the crit range is indeed 19-20 but when u have improved crit its 17-20 and any burst effects will go off even if your opponent is immune to crits.

The data you posted does not take this into account.

The data as it stands has a plain +5 weapon of each variety attacking a creature that can be critted 100 times. Based on this alone the dwarven axe may pull ahead but the amount of time required for this to happen is not realisticly the length of a typical encounter in DDO unless we are talking a raid boss.

Burst effects are gunna widen the dps gap and you cant proclaim a weapon to be the winner until you take this into account.

Real world test would be 6 identical warriors each attacking 6 identical mobs 100 times.
3 warriors have vanilla +5 weapons the other 3 have +1 holy burst weapons.
The mobs each have 10,000 hps and can be hit on a roll of 2 or better.

Which warrior drops his mob the lowest or kills it 1st?

I'd wager the holy burst khopesh. Its why some barbarians use rapiers.

[QuantumFX]

explain.

The OP assumes that the weilder of the weapon is a gimp.

To OP ignores the following sources of precrit damage:
Strength
Enhancement bonus to the weapon
Power Attack
Favored Enemy
Bardsong

He also ignores the following sources of Crit damage
Burst damage
Seeker

The OP demonstrates a lack of knowledge about how crits operate. The kopesh amplifies damage twice as often as a Dwarven axe and twice as powerfully as a Bastard Sword. The sources of damage I outlined above are twice as powerful for the kopesh.

If you don't understand how this works: The crit profile of a weapon is (threat range) multiplied by (Crit multiplier -1). A Kopesh is 8 (4 for the 17-20 crit range and x2 for the multiplier) The Dwarven Axe is 4 (2 for the 19-20 crit range and x2 for the multiplier) The Bastard Sword is also 4 (4 for the crit range x1 for the multiplier)

[Asketes]

hey POSTERS,

here's an idea.

Quit being self righteous boobs and explain to me what I did wrong.

Quit acting like a bunch of know it all self-righteous _-_-_- and say, "hey you need to add str and PA into the mix to see the khopesh shine."

I haven't been playing since I was a little zygote like you guys, I have a life. So I don't know everything there is to know about this game. I was posting what I KNEW (see my signature if you want proof).



If what I post is wrong, tell me WHY, don't just say, 'say the OP is an idiot."


Tell me "why" the khopesh is better. This does not help, and just makes you look sad:

You have totally missed the point as to why the kopesh is better.

Don't even post in my thread if you are going to act like a child

Strength, power attack, bloodstone, bursting effects, etc, do not affect all these weapons equally which are giving you results that aren't very useful. Kopesh is way higher than the bastard sword using realistic data.

bursting effects are only semi-reliant on crit multiplier (just the amount of times you crit). They rely on the multiplier to allow a set amount of potential damage to affect the mob, not to be calculated by it.

example: good burst: "...additionally all monsters of evil alignment take an additional 3d6 on a critical hitfor weapons with a x2 multiplier, 4d6 for x3, adn 5d6 for x4. (The main comparison was D.axe and khopesh, a buddy wanted B.swords in there.. FOR D.axe and khopesh the burst effects will remain the same amount of damage at 4D6, just at a differenct fluctuation of frequency.)

Besides pointing out the flaws in your calculations....
Run your numbers again with +10 for 30 strength and +5 for powerattack

Although rather dastardly, you were probably only 1 of 2 posters who at least informed me how I could see a whole different set of numbers.

The OP assumes that the weilder of the weapon is a gimp.

To OP ignores the following sources of precrit damage:
Strength
Enhancement bonus to the weapon
Power Attack
Favored Enemy
Bardsong

He also ignores the following sources of Crit damage
Burst damage
Seeker

The OP demonstrates a lack of knowledge about how crits operate. The kopesh amplifies damage twice as often as a Dwarven axe and twice as powerfully as a Bastard Sword. The sources of damage I outlined above are twice as powerful for the kopesh.

If you don't understand how this works: The crit profile of a weapon is (threat range) multiplied by (Crit multiplier -1). A Kopesh is 8 (4 for the 17-20 crit range and x2 for the multiplier) The Dwarven Axe is 4 (2 for the 19-20 crit range and x2 for the multiplier) The Bastard Sword is also 4 (4 for the crit range x1 for the multiplier)

You my friend are just being rude. instead of criticizing me as a person, give me what I need to know. Don't talk about me, saying I am demonstrating a lack of knowledge and how I am stupid. OF COURSE I AM, I don't eat this game for breakfast 24 hr/day.

oh and reread my post, I included the +5 enhancment DUDE. what a waste of my time you are.

Quit your self-stimulating talk, and explain (like you did in the 2nd part of your post)


I find it funny you guys like to have diarrhea of the mouth when it comes to telling people off, telling people how they are wrong, and why you are sooo better (i would be too if I bought that much lube for the soul) BUT you don't actually tell people WHY they are wrong, without sound like an SOB.



Here are my redone numbers (thanks to those that helped, and no thanks to those who acted like panzys)



Assume a 30 Str
Assume PA (+5)
total: 18 modifier to damage

Kopesh:
100 swings total
70 Normal Hits = (5.5 + 23) x 70 = 1995
20 Crit Hits = ((5.5+23) x 3) x 20 = 1700
10 possible Crits = ((5.5 + 23) x 3) x 10 = 855
Total Damage = 4550

Dwarven Axe:
100 swings total
85 Normal Hits = (9 + 23) x 85 = 2720
10 Crit Hits = ((9 + 23) x 3) x 10 = 960
5 Possible Crits = ((9 + 23) x 3) x 5 = 480
Total Damage = 4160

Bastard Sword:
100 swings total
70 Normal Hits = (9 + 23) x 70 = 2240
20 Crit Hits = ((9 + 23) x 2) x 20 = 1280
10 Possible Crits = ((9 + 23) x 2) x 10 = 640
Total Damage: 4160


So I redid the numbers for the 100 swing test. It seems that this follows to what people say.

Given real life situations, the khopesh takes the lead with the higher crit range and multiplier.

[Asketes]

reposted the above by accident

[stazer]

[QUOTE=Asketes;2166312]hey POSTERS,

here's an idea.

Quit being self righteous boobs and explain to me what I did wrong.

Quit acting like a bunch of know it all self-righteous _-_-_- and say, "hey you need to add str and PA into the mix to see the khopesh shine."

I haven't been playing since I was a little zygote like you guys, I have a life. So I don't know everything there is to know about this game. I was posting what I KNEW (see my signature if you want proof).

You sir get the thumbs up for the day! Pretentious hyper nerds really know how to suck the fun out of games. T

however you may not want my support because I play so infrequently, not by choice I love this game, that I got confused by the splash screen which said mod 9.

[Goldeneye]

I'm interested in how a Bloodstone would effect these numbers.

With improved crit:

The khopesh, with the 17-20 x3
vs. Dwarven Axe, a 19-20 x3
add in seeker +6, that is a good bit more damage

in addition, even though the base damage of the Dwarven Axe and Bastard Sword might be higher, I believe it is the Burst/Blast effects that put the Khopesh in the lead

All in all, Bastard Swords and Dwarven Axes still do a good amount of damage (more one handed martial weapons), however it is the crit range that puts the Khopesh in the lead

unfortunately, I do not have the numbers to back up my statement here, therefor this is nothing but my personal opinion

EDIT: You have already established this in post #9 - I totally failed my spot check

[Murderface]

its a weapon that has an augmented crit range. the only way that a bastard sword or dwarven axe can compete is if you have a creature not vulnerable to elemental burst damage or holy bursts and cannot be critted..

this is the only game where a weapon with those stats are even legal...
but for the most part kopesh does more damage no matter what since they have the best crit range and multiplier by far.

think about it there taking crit range widening enhancments away for a reason. so now the best way to get augmented crit range is thru kopesh....

[Asketes]

think about it there taking crit range widening enhancments away for a reason. so now the best way to get augmented crit range is thru kopesh....

what do you mean by this? I know they're taking away crit rage for barbs. what else?

[Mr_Ed7]

THE OP PRESENTED EVIDENCE!!!

EVIDENCE beats out OPINION everytime!

You "Khopeshers" need to do your own freaking tests!!!
AND PRESENT THE EVIDENCE!

Great job poster!

Of course if you make a build and make choices that YOU LIKE, you will never be disappointed!

In my opinion!

[Asketes]

THE OP PRESENTED EVIDENCE!!!

EVIDENCE beats out OPINION everytime!

You "Khopeshers" need to do your own freaking tests!!!
AND PRESENT THE EVIDENCE!

Great job poster!

Of course if you make a build and make choices that YOU LIKE, you will never be disappointed!

In my opinion!

Thanks

I've been a big fan of D.axes because, truthfully, I've never done the math. I just assumed less crit with higher base damage would win out.

Now that I've done THE CORRECT math, it does seem that khopesh would be the way to go for more DPS *sigh*

It would be nice to have something else available to use instead of what EVERYONE is using.. Like Bastard Swords (underpowered in DDO) or something.

Do the DEV's have anything planned so we all don't look the same carrying the same weapon? (DT armor is fine, that I can comprehend, but having one weapon that rules them all is kind of .... bland?)

[krud]

You must factor in strength and anything else that adds to base damage, or else the numbers are meaningless. Weapons with different crit range and multipliers respond differently to factors that add to base damage (not to mention seeker effects). Look what happens when you add in just +10 for strength (30str)

TEST 1 (100 swings):

Kopesh:
100 swings total
70 Normal Hits = (5.5 + 5+10) x 70 = 1435
20 Crit Hits = ((5.5+5+10) x 3) x 20 = 1230
10 possible Crits = ((5.5 + 5+10) x 3) x 10 = 615
Total Damage = 3280

Dwarven Axe:
100 swings total
85 Normal Hits = (9 + 5+10) x 85 = 2040
10 Crit Hits = ((9 + 5+10) x 3) x 10 = 720
5 Possible Crits = ((9 + 5+10) x 3) x 5 = 360
Total Damage = 3120

Bastard Sword:
100 swings total
70 Normal Hits = (9 + 5+10) x 70 = 1680
20 Crit Hits = ((9 + 5+10) x 2) x 20 = 960
10 Possible Crits = ((9 + 5+10) x 2) x 10 = 480
Total Damage: 3120


I don't know anyone who will be swinging any of those weapons without at least a +10 to damage. It only gets better for the khopesh the more you start adding to base damage.

[Emili]

I'm interested in how a Bloodstone would effect these numbers.

With improved crit:

The khopesh, with the 17-20 x3
vs. Dwarven Axe, a 19-20 x3
add in seeker +6, that is a good bit more damage

in addition, even though the base damage of the Dwarven Axe and Bastard Sword might be higher, I believe it is the Burst/Blast effects that put the Khopesh in the lead

All in all, Bastard Swords and Dwarven Axes still do a good amount of damage (more one handed martial weapons), however it is the crit range that puts the Khopesh in the lead

unfortunately, I do not have the numbers to back up my statement here, therefor this is nothing but my personal opinion

EDIT: You have already established this in post #9 - I totally failed my spot check

I may be incorrect as I am tired, However just bloodstone damage from these weapons should equate to this (or around) in 100 swings...

khopesh, 17-20 x3 (6 (seeker) x 20(in threat out of 100) x 3 (crit multiplier) = 360
D Axe, 19-20 x3 (6 (seeker) x 10(in threat out of 100) x 3 (crit multiplier) = 180
Rapier, 15-20 x2 (6 (seeker) x 30(in threat out of 100) x 2 (crit multiplier) = 360
B sword, 17-20 x2 (6 (seeker) x 20(in threat out of 100) x 2 (crit multiplier) = 180
Scimitar, 15-20 x2 (6 (seeker) x 30(in threat out of 100) x 2 (crit multiplier) = 360

Like a previous posted conveyed the Khopesh does twice the crit damage of a Dwarf Axe on average in the same amount of swings thus a fixed damage number such as seeker is exactly twice should all crit range rolls occur and verify.

PS: I do feel the OP does deserve some sort of apology for people correcting him the way they did... While we do understand (and as does he now) that he was initially incorrect... lack of knowledge of all facts of DnD or DDO in any case does not reflect nor bare any warrant on ones true intellect. One may correct instructively, constructively or destructively the later of which 't is not bloody nice.

When all these weapons are put to practice in DDO... In the three years I've played DDO I have spec'd for all the weapons listed above on practically the same character (like stats) and in my opinion the Khopesh feels like it performs much better then the others.

[Damionic]

I thought he was on to a winner here

Sadly the (cheat) Khopesh proved its Overpowerednes...Dev's If you want EVERYONE to use a Khopesh..please take out ALL the other weapons!!

This is the same sort of gross Cheating that gives Fire/Cold casters the Edge!!

To Balance the Game NERF THE KHOPESH!

[Asketes]

I thought he was on to a winner here

Sadly the (cheat) Khopesh proved its Overpowerednes...Dev's If you want EVERYONE to use a Khopesh..please take out ALL the other weapons!!

This is the same sort of gross Cheating that gives Fire/Cold casters the Edge!!

To Balance the Game NERF THE KHOPESH!

it's not cheating, but unlike in PnP. you can just get something from a vendor that carries it all (i think hehe)

it's just a bit bland.

I'd take a new weapon ANY day over character / armor differences *maybe*

[direwolf33]

See this thread: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=150822