Heal Spell Math, Everthing you wanted to know...but afraid to ask

[cinoaz]

In case others are interested, this is how you calculate a Cleric HEAL spell given enhancements, items and feats. This assumes a cleric can cast a max base HEAL spell for 150HP. For lower levels, just adjust Base heal value.

In this calculation, I"m using a Superior Potency VI item as well.

Editors Note: Devotion and Potency are both considered the same in the calculation. What would have been nice if Devotion was added in like the Empower Healing feat, that would make Devotion items more potent than Potency Items just for heals, but, alas, that's not the way it works

First a new definition is needed:

EnhancedBase = Base of the spell plus all Life Magic Enhancement bonus. There are 4 tiers of this enhancement, so if you take all 4 this adds 40% to the Base of all your HEAL spells.

However, Potency and Devotion items are calculated into the true BASE of the spell, not the EnhancedBase value.

let me continue....


A Base HEAL of 150HP plus the %40 increase from all 4 tiers of the Life Magic Enhancement equals the new EnhancedBase of 210

Enhancedbase = 210 (So a Heal Spell with the Healing Enhancements brings the EnhancedBase value to 210. (150 + 40%))

When I equip both Pot VI(Or a Devotion Item since both are applied in the same way) and Empower Healing, my healing was getting 427, it didn't make sense, but here's the math.

((Base * %Potency/Devotion) + Enhancedbase) + (((Base * %Potency/Devotion) + Enhancedbase) * %Empower) = Total Heal

I'll break it down.

First, we need to calculate the new Base Spell value, the EnhancedBase value:

Heal base is 150 * 40%(Enhancements) = 210 EnhancedBase

Second, we need to calculate the Potency/Devotion bonus:

Heal base is 150 * 50%(Potency Item) = 75 bonus

Third, we add both the Potency Bonus and EnhancedBase together

(75(Potency Bonus) + 210(EnhancedBase)) = 285

Fourth, we calculate the Empower Heal Bonus on the 285 heal

285 * 50%(Empower Heal) = 142.5 Empower Heal Bonus

Fifth, we start to add it all up
(75(Potency Bonus) + 210(EnhancedBase)) + 142.5(Empower) = 427.5, rounded to 427. Hence my Heals are 427....mystery solved.



Empower healing adds 50% to (Base Spell + Enhancements)

Potency adds 50% to Base Spell then (Base Spell + Enchancements)

So Empower Healing goes:

150(Base) + 40% (Enhancements) = 210 + 50% = 315


Potency Goes:

150(base) +40% (Enhancements) = 210 + (50% of 150 base) = 285


So Empower healing adds enhancement before the percentage upgrade, while Potency/Devotion adds it to the plain Base level, then adds enhancements.

The plain Empower feat acts like a Potency/Devotion item. It's calculated at the plain BASE level. The ONLY feat that stacks after enhancements and such is the Empower Heal spell, that's why Empower Heal and Empower are still different feats.


lets take a look at HARM


Harm, on the other hand, is an oddball. It's not affected by Empower Healing, Empower or Maximize feats. But, it is affected by Enhancements just like HEAL is. So, you can add up to %40 of the Base spell just like HEAL.

EnhancedBase = Base + (Base * (Enhancement Bonus %))

EnhancedBase = (150 + 60)

EnhancedBase = 210

((Base * Potency%) + EnhancedBase)
Harm = (150 * 50%) + 210
Harm = 75 + 210
Harm = 285

Now with a crit of 2.5 multiplyer = 712

[kinar]

I don't know if this is the case or not, but it is possible you have the feat and pot/dev calculation backwards. Since they are both 50%, you won't be able to know for sure which is applied first unless you test with a lesser potency/dev item (40%/20%/etc).

Also, since this is a technical document of sorts, you should probably detail that you have Live Magic 4 for the 40% and not just that Life Magic gives 40% as well as Superior potency VI for the 50% since regular potency is only 20%.

[samho]

Maybe it's just me, but I found it might be a bit difficult to read for whoever doesn't have the concept. Here's the formula I'm using for a long while:


Your base heal (or inflict wound) amount * ( sum of extra bonus from Highest % Potency / Devotion Item and extra bonus % from Life Magic ) * product of all your Meta Magic Feat



For example, you cast a Cure Serious Wound at a level 10 cleric while have your Empower Healing, Empower Spell, Maximize Spell enabled, with your Life Magic III enhancement and Greater Potency III quartstaff.

THe CSW at caster level 10 will do 3d8 + 10 base heal amount ( technically, it will be 3d6 + 6 + 10 at DDO implemention, but let's ignore it ), and let's assume your spell just roll a prefect dice and heal with maximize possible amount of 34 point.

So your heal with all 3 feat on will be (this is the number without critical):
34 * ( 100% + 30% life magic III + 40% greater potency ) * 150% (Empower Heal) * 150% (Empower Spell) * 200% (Maximize Spell) = 34 * 1.7 * 1.5 * 1.5 * 2 = 260

[cinoaz]

I don't know if this is the case or not, but it is possible you have the feat and pot/dev calculation backwards. Since they are both 50%, you won't be able to know for sure which is applied first unless you test with a lesser potency/dev item (40%/20%/etc).

Empower healing adds 50% to (Base Spell + Enhancements)

Potency adds 50% to Base Spell then (Base Spell + Enchancements)

So Empower Healing goes:

150(Base) + 40% (Enhancements) = 210 + 50% = 315


Potency/Devotion

150(base) +40% (Enhancements) = 210 + (50% of 150 base) = 285

Maximize/Empower Goes:

150(base) +40% (Enhancements) = 210 + (%(Maximize/Empower) of 150 base) = Total Heal

Also, since this is a technical document of sorts, you should probably detail that you have Live Magic 4 for the 40% and not just that Life Magic gives 40% as well as Superior potency VI for the 50% since regular potency is only 20%.

Good point, will modify original post

[cinoaz]

( sum of extra bonus from Highest % Potency / Devotion Item and extra bonus % from Life Magic ) * product of all your Meta Magic Feat

Not totally correct...

The Meta Magic Feats all apply to the BASE of a spell, NOT the Base+Enhancement bonus. The ONLY feat that takes BASE plus ENHANCEMENT is the Empower Healing Spell.

Although this may be a bit difficult to understand the difference, as it is slight, the result does add up.

So Empower Healing goes:

150(Base) + 40% (Enhancements) = 210 + 50% = 315

As you can see, the Empower Heal bonus is being applied AFTER the Base Spell AND Enhancements is calculated.


Potency Goes:

150(base) +40% (Enhancements) = 210 + (50% of 150 base) = 285

The Potency bonus is being applied to the BASE of the heal spell, not the BASE and Enhancement, which results in a lower number.

The Same goes for Empower, Maximize. Both are applied to the BASE of the spell, NOT the BASE + Enhancement, which is why Empower Healing is DIFFERENT that Empower and Maximize. Using Empower Heal you get to use your Enhancement bonus as your base spell level, boosting it above what other feats can.

So, your calculation is correct for Empower and Maximize, but not correct for Empower Healing.

For Empower Healing it would go:

Your base heal (or inflict wound) amount * extra bonus % from Life Magic ) * Empower Healing Feat) + the product of all your remaining Meta Magic Feat(calculated against the Base spell, NOT the Base + Enhancement).

[Borror0]

Spells are :

base * spell damage enhancement bonus * metamagic * critical

Spell damage enhancement bonuses are the addition of:

• Base (1.00)
• Potency, Devotion, etc (0.1-0.5)
• Bonuses from Enhancements (0.1-0.4)

Metamagics are the addition of:

• Base (1.00)
• Maximize (1.0)
• Empower (0.5)
• Empower Healing (0.5)

Critical are the addition of:

• Base (1.50)
• Lore items (0.25-0.5)
• Critical enhancements (0.25-0.75)

As for Healing Amplification bonus, they are all added separately and multiply each other (with the exception of the finger Necklace).

Harm, on the other hand, is an oddball. It's not affected by Empower Healing, Empower or Maximize feats. But, it is affected by Enhancements just like HEAL is. So, you can add up to %40 of the Base spell just like HEAL.

Harm and Heal are unaffected by Empower and Maximize because they don't have dices (PnP logic).

Empower Healing is making an exception for Heal but it does not affect Harm for self-evident reasons.

[kinar]

Empower healing adds 50% to (Base Spell + Enhancements)

Potency adds 50% to Base Spell then (Base Spell + Enchancements)

I wasn't arguing that your math was wrong. I was indicating that the order of application might have been a source of error since the two of your multipliers were the same and since one of them was multiplying the result of the other one.

It is much more clear now with the edits and the additional information in the other posts.

Life Magic Enhancements are applied first, Items (dev/pot) second, and Feats (emp/max) last.

How are multiple feats calculated? Does each apply to the enhancemets + items value and then added? Or is there an order to the feats as well and they stack?

In the example used below (cure serious) where it does 34pts of healing base.

34 + (34 * .4) = 47.6 (base + Life Magic IV)
47.6 + (47.6 * .5) = 71.4 (base + Life Magic IV + Empower Heal)
47.6 + (47.6 * .5) = 71.4 (base + Life Magic IV + Empower)
47.6 + (47.6 * 1.0) = 95.2 (base + Life Magic IV + Maximize)
For a grand total of: 71.4 + 71.4 + 95.2 = 238

Or is it:
34 + (34 * .4) = 47.6 (base + Life Magic IV)
47.6 + (47.6 * .5) = 71.4 (base + Life Magic IV + Empower Heal)
71.4 + (71.4 * .5) = 107.1 (base + Life Magic IV + Empower)
107.1 + (107.1 * 1.0) = 214.2 (base + Life Magic IV + Maximize)
For a grand total of: 71.4 + 107.1 + 214.2 = 392.7 (this seems rediculously high so I'm thinkin I answered my own question but then again, I've never been stupid enough to take all 3 feats on a cleric).


Of course the natural followup question to this discussion is....Are crits determined before or after the enhanced values?

iow, is the value calculated and then the crit multiplier applied? Or is it the other way around and the crit multiplier is applied to the base and then the % modifiers?

[Borror0]

How are multiple feats calculated?

Feats are added together and then multiplied.

For example, if a spell is influenced by Maximize and Empower, you add the two together (1 + 1 +0.5) for a total of a 2.5 factor.

Does each apply to the enhancemets + items value and then added?

Enhancements and items are added together to form a different factor. If a cleric has Superior Potency and Life Magic IV, he has a 1,.9 factor.

If we take the previous factor for metamagic it would give:

base *1.9 * 2.5 = damage

Are crits determined before or after the enhanced values?

Criticals are another, different, factor.

[cinoaz]

Spells are :

base * spell damage enhancement bonus * metamagic * critical

The only time a MetaMagic feat is applied to a Heal + Enhancement Bonus is if that MetaMagic feat is Empower Heal.

If the MetaMagic feat is Empower or Maximize, then the Metamagic is calculated against the BASE of the spell, not Base + Enhancement.

So, for Empower Heal Metamagic, your calculation is correct.

base * spell damage enhancement bonus * metamagic * critical

For just plain Empower or Maximize, your calculation is not correct. That calculation would be:

base * spell damage enhancement bonus + (metamagic * base) * critical

The second calculation, given the same numbers, will yield a lower value. This is why Empower Healing is still in game. It only affects healing but does so in a way to maximize the total outcome and take advantage of enhancements.

[Borror0]

The only time a MetaMagic feat is applied to a Heal + Enhancement Bonus is if that MetaMagic feat is Empower Heal.

Wrong. The only time Heal is affected by metamagics is when Empowered Heling is turned on, as Maximize and empower don't affect Heal. That's all.

EDIT: Well, there is Quicken, Heighten and Enlarge but those don't affect damage.

base * spell damage enhancement bonus + (metamagic * base) * critical

That formula is incorrect. The one I gave is correct.

I tested it - did you?

This is why Empower Healing is still in game.

False. The reason Empower Healing is still in-game is that it is cheaper than Empower and affects Heal, which Maximize and Empower don't.

Oh, and because you can Empower, Maximize, Empower Healing you mass cure wounds if you want.

[kinar]

Oh, and because you can Empower, Maximize, Empower Healing you mass cure wounds if you want.

That is how I interpreted his latest post. Even though his text says "heal" I think he means healing as in casting cures and is stating that it applies differently than the other metamagics.

Of course I could be wrong. And so can he.

Unfortunately, this means I'm gonna hafta test for myself now....****, I was hoping other people could agree on this.