Any reason not to splash in Mod 9?

[degroove]

I've been exclusively playing a capped cleric so far. So I'm not totally noob on cleric topics, but I am utterly clueless on multi-class discussions. So please feel free to correct me.

The question is: are there really any strong arguments for not splashing at least 2 levels of another class on a cleric now that mod 9 is going to be released?

I'll try to state what I think are the arguments and counter-arguments in each case.


POTENTIAL BENEFITS OF STAYING PURE CLERIC

1. More SPs and/or more HPs (potentially)
But it depends on splash

2. More high level spell slots
But quite frankly there are 2 really useful level 9 spells, maybe 3 (mass heal, implosion and negative energy)

3. Cleric capstone
But it seems like it's not that useful - unless it is designed for very specific new quest content

4. Prestige classes
But still achievable if splash is 1 or 2 levels only

5. Higher spell penetration
May matter a fair deal to keep BB and Destruction viable, as well as Implosion


POTENTIAL BENEFITS OF SPLASHING 2 LEVELS

1. Melee capability
With paladin or fighter - the infamous battle cleric - let's not start a debate, but acknowledge that some players like the build

2. Evasion
With rogue or monk - increases survivability (monk also adds wisdom based AC bonus)

3. UMD
With rogue or monk - adds a bit of versatility (e.g., teleport and stoneskin scrolls)

4. SP
With sorcerer


CONCLUSION

Based on the gameplay as we know it (i.e., excluding potential future capstones, etc.), it would seem to me that based on the relative benefits, the choice should be based on the style:

1. Caster / Healer - stay pure to get max spell penetration and extra spell slots
2. Healer / Caster - splash 2 monks + halfing to get survivability and mitigate SP loss by dragonmarks
3. Battle cleric - no other choice than splashing (without entering the debate of viability)
4. Balanced / flexible build - splash 2 monks + halfing and respec between dragonmarks / caster feats as needed

Thoughts / corrections / comments ?

[Comfortably]

If your going to splash monk, make sure your dwarf

[Nick_RC]

POTENTIAL BENEFITS OF STAYING PURE CLERIC


2. More high level spell slots
But quite frankly there are 2 really useful level 9 spells, maybe 3 (mass heal, implosion and negative energy)

You will want at LEAST 3 - all the above you suggested are fantastic spells. Energy drain will rock.

3. Cleric capstone
But it seems like it's not that useful - unless it is designed for very specific new quest content

It sucks.

5. Higher spell penetration
May matter a fair deal to keep BB and Destruction viable, as well as Implosion

BB is not affected by spell pen but the other two are.


POTENTIAL BENEFITS OF SPLASHING 2 LEVELS

1. Melee capability
With paladin or fighter - the infamous battle cleric - let's not start a debate, but acknowledge that some players like the build

2. Evasion
With rogue or monk - increases survivability (monk also adds wisdom based AC bonus)

3. UMD
With rogue or monk - adds a bit of versatility (e.g., teleport and stoneskin scrolls)

UMD is not a monk skill, the rest can be crafted, looted.

4. SP
With sorcerer

I think this is really not a good idea. lvl 19-20 cleric will provide nearly the same sp increase as well as +1 Spell pen, and another slot.


And this is the crux of it. The thing is if you didnt build for a particualr attribute splashing a class is a waste. Is ur reflex save high enough to warrant evasion? Did you give him adequate str/feats/hit points to be useful as a melee?

The thing is unless you built with a plan its hard to adjust on the fly. If you want personal feedback maybe post your stats but trying to generalise will point some people in the wrong direction.

Personally this is the way I think about it. If you intended your cleric to be a healbot stay pure. If you wanted him to be a second rate mellee dps as well (second rate is better than nothing in alot of situations) then u must have given him decent str at creation. A fighter and/or barb and or paladin level is nice.

Sorc is a waste IMO. Evasion for evasions sake is a waste IMO. Especially for the typical dump stat = dex cleric. Evasion via monk levels for feats in aid of being a better battleceric is great.

Hope this helps.

N

[Impaqt]

I've been exclusively playing a capped cleric so far. So I'm not totally noob on cleric topics, but I am utterly clueless on multi-class discussions. So please feel free to correct me.

The question is: are there really any strong arguments for not splashing at least 2 levels of another class on a cleric now that mod 9 is going to be released?

I'll try to state what I think are the arguments and counter-arguments in each case.


POTENTIAL BENEFITS OF STAYING PURE CLERIC

1. More SPs and/or more HPs (potentially)
But it depends on splash

Even if you go barbarian, the NEt HP gain is like 8 Hit points..... ANd thats for 2 Levels..... Spell Points/ make sure you understand how sepll points work at end game before making the decisionbased on that. Other factors involved than just class spalsh.

2. More high level spell slots
But quite frankly there are 2 really useful level 9 spells, maybe 3 (mass heal, implosion and negative energy)

THe Summon is by far the best of the bunch. and why not use True Res?

3. Cleric capstone
But it seems like it's not that useful - unless it is designed for very specific new quest content

Agreed, Its not very impressive.

4. Prestige classes
But still achievable if splash is 1 or 2 levels only

If we ever get em.

5. Higher spell penetration
May matter a fair deal to keep BB and Destruction viable, as well as Implosion

Addressed by nick.

POTENTIAL BENEFITS OF SPLASHING 2 LEVELS

1. Melee capability
With paladin or fighter - the infamous battle cleric - let's not start a debate, but acknowledge that some players like the build

Realy only applicable if you planned for a melee build fromthe start... a 10 STR CLR no matter what the splash isnt going to be a very good melee.

2. Evasion
With rogue or monk - increases survivability (monk also adds wisdom based AC bonus)

If you can get you Reflex saves up to the 30's, then yes (And ac into the 50's) a 2 level splash on its own isnt going to make Evasionor ac benefitial.

3. UMD
With rogue or monk - adds a bit of versatility (e.g., teleport and stoneskin scrolls)

2 levels late inthe game will add some UMD, but you probobly wont be able to come near maxing it.

4. SP
With sorcerer

Only if you have a high Charisma. otherwise, the gain is neglitable.

CONCLUSION

Based on the gameplay as we know it (i.e., excluding potential future capstones, etc.), it would seem to me that based on the relative benefits, the choice should be based on the style:

1. Caster / Healer - stay pure to get max spell penetration and extra spell slots
2. Healer / Caster - splash 2 monks + halfing to get survivability and mitigate SP loss by dragonmarks
3. Battle cleric - no other choice than splashing (without entering the debate of viability)
4. Balanced / flexible build - splash 2 monks + halfing and respec between dragonmarks / caster feats as needed

Thoughts / corrections / comments ?

Real Conclusion.

DONT multiclass unless you know what your doing. Dont Multiclass for the sake of Multiclassing. Multiclass builds should be designed with multiclassing in mind. they are not something to experiment with on the fly. Theres no Respec in this game. Once you take that off level, your commited. The Only way to fix it is to REROLL.

[Demoyn]

Personally this is the way I think about it. If you intended your cleric to be a healbot stay pure. If you wanted him to be a second rate mellee dps as well (second rate is better than nothing in alot of situations) then u must have given him decent str at creation. A fighter and/or barb and or paladin level is nice.

Sorc is a waste IMO. Evasion for evasions sake is a waste IMO. Especially for the typical dump stat = dex cleric. Evasion via monk levels for feats in aid of being a better battleceric is great.

Hope this helps.

N

I agree with this, except the second rate dps part (lower, sure, but not quite second rate).

[Aspenor]

I agree with this, except the second rate dps part (lower, sure, but not quite second rate).

Nick knows exactly what he's talking about, his cleric has 1 level of fighter and high STR, and at least he's honest enough with himself to know that it's still second rate DPS.

[degroove]

Thanks guys - this is extremely helpful and I appreciate the input.

Just to be clear on one thing though as I realize now my post is confusing : I absolutely do not intend to randomly splash my existing cleric. He is ok - however, there are things I messed up and I didn't have 32pt builds back then.

The question is : as Mod 9 is coming, I want to reroll a cleric and I am wondering what race / whether to splash / what class to splash. Thus my post on the topic.

My statement of objective for the build would be : top of the line healer with very high survivability and reasonable casting ability.

I have been thinking about:
- Cleric 20 human : extra wisdom and very high extra spell penetration (through feat and enhancements)
- Cleric 20 halfling : dragonmarks for extra healing
- Cleric 18 / monk 2 halfling : dragonmarks for extra healing and evasion for extra survivability
- Cleric 20 dwarf : extra HPs and potentially shied feat/enhancement for extra survivability

For some reason, I'm just not a fan of the dragonmark concept. I'm thinking that at level 20, MT and IMT is about 210 SPs and that's not that far away from from the SP opportunity benefit of 5 dragonmark heals. Additionally, I'm pretty much convinced that application of metamagic to dragonmarks will be removed down the line and was never meant in the first place.

So based on this, was would be your advice on class(es) and race?

[tc12]

Regarding sorc splash for SP

Only if you have a high Charisma. otherwise, the gain is neglitable.

Currently on my drow healbot stats are CHA 28 and WIS 30. Assuming WIS goes to 32 @20th while CHA remains 28, what would my SP be as 20 Cleric vs 19/1Sorc?

To be clear if I did this it would be to use arcane wands too. This guy was built in Mod 2 with low CON so self-blur/stoneskin would be nice. Even so I think the delta would need to be at least 100 extra SP to consider it. While weak compared to some I do think the capstone will prove handy.

TC

[Impaqt]

Regarding sorc splash for SP



Currently on my drow healbot stats are CHA 28 and WIS 30. Assuming WIS goes to 32 @20th while CHA remains 28, what would my SP be as 20 Cleric vs 19/1Sorc?

To be clear if I did this it would be to use arcane wands too. This guy was built in Mod 2 with low CON so self-blur/stoneskin would be nice. Even so I think the delta would need to be at least 100 extra SP to consider it. While weak compared to some I do think the capstone will prove handy.

TC

A Level 1 Sorc Gets 100 SPell Points.

a Level 20 Cleric gets 100 Spell Points.

So thats a Wash.

CHR is where you gain. With a 28 CHR, you get 90 Bonus Spell Points.

With a 30 Wis, you wil Lose 10 Bonus spell Points.(Or more acuratly, Not gain 10 bonus points at level 20)

Net Gain 80 Spell Points

[Nick_RC]

I agree with this, except the second rate dps part (lower, sure, but not quite second rate).

Heh for a while I kept telling myself it wasnt second rate. And for a good while there it wasnt. But with the specialty lines being introduced sadly it is the case.

Personally I think good melee capability on a cleric is nearly mandatory. But thats the way I like to play. Good melee capabilty as it stands is second rate to a pure melees. I have a very high dps melee and an offensive casting yet high strength BC that uses a Min 2 Greataxe, Holy +1 wis +2 wis. The difference between the two is not just less, but alot. Saying that he does just fine meleeing. He crits for 160-170 in raids (no effects) which is a worthwhile contribution no doubt. But hes definately second string to a true melee dps build. It is what it is and no more.

I encourage fighting on a cleric if you can handle multiple things going on...because why not? It will make things go that little bit faster. That and offensively clerics have other tricks up their sleeves that a pure melee cant even fathom.

It is second rate dps. Let be honest. But second rate is better than nothing and often all you need.

N

[Nick_RC]

My statement of objective for the build would be : top of the line healer with very high survivability and reasonable casting ability.

I have been thinking about:
- Cleric 20 human : extra wisdom and very high extra spell penetration (through feat and enhancements)
- Cleric 20 halfling : dragonmarks for extra healing
- Cleric 18 / monk 2 halfling : dragonmarks for extra healing and evasion for extra survivability
- Cleric 20 dwarf : extra HPs and potentially shied feat/enhancement for extra survivability

So based on this, was would be your advice on class(es) and race?

Personally go human. They make the most powerful clerics IMO. The halfling has a little more healing but the Human is more versatile offensivly. Personally forget the 2 monk if ur going mainly healing with some casting in the mix. The 2 monk has its place but realistically you will be better served by more spell points more spell slots and higher spell pen - given ur goal for the build.

Survivability for a general run of the mill cleric shouldnt be an issue, if it is you need to look at how and why you re dieing and adjust ur style accordingly. I can solo near on every quest in the game with my Battlecleric and have found evasion is not necessary...nice but unnecesary. If you're premise was something different (i.e more agressive)then sure the monk might be the way to go, but as it stands pure would be what i recomend.

N

[degroove]

Personally go human. They make the most powerful clerics IMO. The halfling has a little more healing but the Human is more versatile offensivly. Personally forget the 2 monk if ur going mainly healing with some casting in the mix. The 2 monk has its place but realistically you will be better served by more spell points more spell slots and higher spell pen - given ur goal for the build.

Survivability for a general run of the mill cleric shouldnt be an issue, if it is you need to look at how and why you re dieing and adjust ur style accordingly. I can solo near on every quest in the game with my Battlecleric and have found evasion is not necessary...nice but unnecesary. If you're premise was something different (i.e more agressive)then sure the monk might be the way to go, but as it stands pure would be what i recomend.

N

I have been playing around with enhancements, feats and stats this afternoon, and I think I came to the same conclusion.

Now - as a final question before I reroll - what about starting stats? My biggest regret on my current cleric is having started with 10 CON. With the cap increase to 20, it now means that I will be missing 20 HP for each modifier, which I think is a lot.

My thought was:
- WIS at 18
- CON at 16
which leaves me with 6 points

- STR : I know the argument about encumberance, but I am disciplined about my backpack organization and it feels like points wasted
- DEX : I feel that I will never have a reasonable AC or reflex save to benefit from +2 mod
- INT : quite frankly, I can live with only 2 skills - I'm not even certain what I would take beside concentration (probably balance)
- CHA : meh... the mod is nice for extra turn, but 6 creation points to get 3 extra DVs sound pretty expensive
- CON : I can raise to 18 at creation, but it's an expensive use of 6 creation points

I guess the choice is:
- Starting with charisma of 14 and investing into UMD as secondary skill? I would be looking at about 10 skill + 5 CHA mod + 6 shroud item + some buffs for a whopping 25-30ish UMD - meh
- Starting with 18 CON for 5% extra health at end game - meh
- Starting with 10 in STR, DEX, CHA to be even on mods - meh

I think that's my last hurdle before rerolling. I just don't see where the stat dump is most useful...

Again - many thanks for the feedback on this !

[Anthios888]

14 strength and you can be very competent at vorpal and a lot of other weapon effects. Cleric buffs mean that you can really contribute a lot even with meager stat point investment. Remember even pure that you can use longswords for 2 AP. It's a whole extra dimension of the character that you can have for a small investment.

[tc12]

As you note from a base of 8 8 16 8 18 8 you have 6 points left. No further increases are huge gains, it's really just what you prefer. CON to 18 for the total min/max, CHA to 14 for DVs, or any other spread across the other status isn't going to make a huge difference in the end. Really just personal preference/style/flavor of what you like in your builds.

I'm in a similar situation to you, my main cleric is the Drow mentioned above and he was build back in mod 2 with a base 10 CON. So I rolled a human with similar objectives to what you outlined and I ended up 10 10 15 8 18 12. CON 24 and WIS 34 easy with just +2 tomes and a HV enhancement in each at level 16. Beyond that +3 tomes, shroud items and the 5th level up at 20 along with re-balancing the HV enhancements as needed for even stats. For me that addressed all that was wrong with my current cleric -- too few HP and WIS too low for decent spell pen.

Unfortunately he's still only 5th, and if I don't make much progress before Mod 9 launches he'll be on the back burner longer while I level my existing capped characters.

TC

[RigorAdar]

For the amount of SP you spend buffing to get decent melee abilities you can easily throw down a blade barrier for more damage to more foes. Go with CON, HP are the most usefull investment you can make.

[Nick_RC]

For the amount of SP you spend buffing to get decent melee abilities you can easily throw down a blade barrier for more damage to more foes. Go with CON, HP are the most usefull investment you can make.

True in alot of cases however theres times where it most efinately is inferior to vorpal/dps.

Sulu Harry are prime examples of when dps via axe is better than BB.

Devils and orthons in the subterrane ae better vorpalled than BB'd. Before the w/p fix giants in refuge counted too.

Basically High hp trash or static bosses. And thats what i spend alot of time fightin.

And never forget that backpeddling through a BB swinging a Greataxe increases dps significantly.

BB is great. Best not to be a one trick pony.

OP - Personally what i did was take one fighter level for PA started with 14 con 16 str and 18 wis all lvl ups in wis. He is quite formidable.

Feat are

Max
Empower
Quicken
Necro
Gr Necro
MT(human)
IMT

PA - Fighter.

If thats not ur flavour id suggest putting all remaining points into strength either way as it adds another dimension to the character. As another poster said longswords can be used for vorpalling even with 14 str - Personally i prefer the ftr splash but it suits me so each to their own.

Oh yeah and eat a +2 int tome at lvl 1 if you can. Mac concentration, Jump and then balance. Jump for mnoueverabilities sake = priceless.

N

[Nick_RC]

too few HP and WIS too low for decent spell pen.

Just a quick note wisdom does not effect spell pen, neither does cha, int and any other primary stat.

N

[Chaos000]

what no ranger splash?