TWF vs. THF, splash damage, range, and all that

[Monkey_Archer]

I thought the calculation was 83 PER HAND in a minute for TWF

and with the +50% theorized increase in THF RoA twitch should be about 121 ish per minute with with about 50 Glancing Blows


Just a question there

Aesop

That was theory... The actual attack rate increase is not quite as high.
i did some rough tests with haste pots here

for unhasted greataxe i managed to get 102 per minute vs 81 auto attack (26% increase)
The highest increase i got was with a hasted greataxe was 132 vs 101 autoattack (31% increase)

Shade's video below on the same post(a more accurate full minute test) shows about 138 swings per minute hasted (37% increase)

[Monkey_Archer]

Poppycock.. TWF is higher dps then THF for all builds and players..

Not poppycock.
And this is without any effects on glancing blows.
Of course, you do need perfect twich skills....

Dual Khopesh WF Frenzy Berzerker, 62 strength, fully buffed
5.5 khopesh
5 enhancement
26 strength mod
11 powerattack
9 warchanter
1 prayer
---
57.5 mainhand
44.5 offhand
----
102 damage per hit

effects
7 holy
3.5 acid
2.5 slicing
21 vicious
---
34

total hit: 136

Crits (x4 crits, average or 17-18 x3, 19-20 x5)
408
24 seeker
34 effects
33 acid burst/blast
---
499

136 * 15 hits = 2040
499 * 4 crits = 1996

(2040 + 1996) / 20 swings = 201.8 average damage

201.8 * 104 swings per minute / 60 seconds = 350 dps

Greataxe WF Frenzied Berzerker, 62 strength, fully buffed
10.5 greataxe
5 enhancement
39 strength mod
22 powerattack
9 warchanter
1 prayer
---
86.5 damage per hit
~43 per glancing blow

effects
7 holy
3.5 acid
2.5 slicing
21 vicious
---
34

total hit: 120.5

Crits (x5 crits)
432.5
30 seeker
34 effects
44 acid blast/burst
---
540.5


120.5 * 17 hits = 2048.5
540.5 * 2 crits = 1081
43 * 9.5 glancing blows = 408.5

(2048.5 + 1081 + 408.5) / 20 swings = 176.9 average damage

176.9 * 138 swings per minute / 60 seconds = 407 dps

[Shade]

Answers in red.
You can disagree all you want its been well proven both in game and mathmatically that TWF beats THF hands down.

The so called "math" is based on numbers that use auto attack. I have already proven in a video that stepping attack provides 40% more DPS - see Cforce's attack speed index in the strategy guides. Add that to the auto attack figures, and you see THF is higher. "Math" proven.

Proven ingane? Present the evidence. Else it is hearsay.

Ingame many monsters such as Sorjek in Stealer of Souls agro purely on DPS. No one has ever pulled agro from my THF Barb while fighting him.. And I often do take many of the best TWF barbs along with me. I'll accept any challenge from someone who wants to try to prove this otherwise.

[Monkey_Archer]

The so called "math" is based on numbers that use auto attack. I have already proven in a video that stepping attack provides 40% more DPS - see Cforce's attack speed index in the strategy guides. Add that to the auto attack figures, and you see THF is higher. "Math" proven.

Proven ingane? Present the evidence. Else it is hearsay.

Ingame many monsters such as Sorjek in Stealer of Souls agro purely on DPS. No one has ever pulled agro from my THF Barb while fighting him.. And I often do take many of the best TWF barbs along with me. I'll accept any challenge from someone who wants to try to prove this otherwise.

Need look no further for proof then the post directly above

[Shade]

Need look no further for proof then the post directly above

Noted and I see it is exactly in line with what I've said. While personally I don't trust the numbers, I do like that you at least used proper fast values for attack speed rates now. Altho my video shows 140 attacks per minuit, not 138, a minor difference that wouldn't effect the outcome however. Removing you from ignore list now that your numbers at least show something semi-accurate unlike they used to.

[Monkey_Archer]

Noted and I see it is exactly in line with what I've said. While personally I don't trust the numbers, I do like that you at least used proper fast values for attack speed rates now. Altho my video shows 140 attacks per minuit, not 138, a minor difference that wouldn't effect the outcome however. Removing you from ignore list now that your numbers at least show something semi-accurate unlike they used to.

lol.

Even though i do it on my THF, and will calculate it, I still think its stupid that we have to.

And doesnt change the fact that, attacking normally, TWF owns THF.

[Shade]

Also an importnat factor for mod9 that will likely pull THF even further into the lead is the capstone increase to glancing blow damage.

The ~43 number noted seems rather low. As currently I can already do 35 damage glancing bows, I expect 40+ without any base increase by level20 with simply the strength increases, but the capstone states it further increases their damage, so I'm expected roughly 50-60 damage on them.

[Shade]

lol.

Even though i do it on my THF, and will calculate it, I still think its stupid that we have to.

And doesnt change the fact that, attacking normally, TWF owns THF.

If by "owns" you mean is maybe 20% higher, then yes.

But yes it's stupid we have to, and now that we've shown this to turbine and more people are aware of it, it may be fixed some day.

Personally I've done it since mod1 so it's ingrained into my very soul of how I play. I do it automatically without thinking and without really requiring any concetration to do it. Only time I'm not doing it is if I wanna send some tells while attack portals or something unimportant.

[Monkey_Archer]

Also an importnat factor for mod9 that will likely pull THF even further into the lead is the capstone increase to glancing blow damage.

The ~43 number noted seems rather low. As currently I can already do 35 damage glancing bows, I expect 40+ without any base increase by level20 with simply the strength increases, but the capstone states it further increases their damage, so I'm expected roughly 50-60 damage on them.

WE were also expecting each tier to increase glancing blow procs by 10%..
I wouldnt be surprised if the capstone give +2 damage

[FluffyCalico]

But yes it's stupid we have to, and now that we've shown this to turbine and more people are aware of it, it may be fixed some day.

.

If by fixed you mean they will stop you from being able to use a glitch to bug your attack swing then yes maybe they will fix that. The fact that THFs advise is to exploit the swing timer shows just how bad their unexploited DPS is. If you mean make the later animations faster and this giving you your exploited swing rate without exploiting I highly doubt it.

[Monkey_Archer]

If by fixed you mean they will stop you from being able to use a glitch to bug your attack swing then yes maybe they will fix that. The fact that THFs advise is to exploit the swing timer shows just how bad their unexploited DPS is. If you mean make the later animations faster and this giving you your exploited swing rate without exploiting I highly doubt it.

I think the only way to fix it like that, would be to actually slow down the 2 swings used... further decreasing THF autoattacking..
A better fix would be just increase the speed of attacks 4 and 5.
And, fix greatsword while they're at it

[Shade]

If by fixed you mean they will stop you from being able to use a glitch to bug your attack swing then yes maybe they will fix that.

lol. Not sure what your smoking but share it man.

To think that attacking while moving is a "exploit" is truely an insane thing. I really have to question myself when I click on that "view ignored post" button. Not sure its a good way to waste my time.

If attacking while moving was an exploit, then why the heck do you think you get +5 to hit for the 3rd attack while standing, and +10 to the 4th and 5th?

The developers aren't stupid. They know attacks while moving are faster, thus they gave these bonuses to the slower attacks to attempt to balance them out.

What they didn't anticipate is the fact we really don't need those bonuses to hit, to hit even on 2.. And they also didn't think the higher attacks would be so much slower. The just used the animations they designed in beta and that was it..

[FluffyCalico]

I think the only way to fix it like that, would be to actually slow down the 2 swings used... further decreasing THF autoattacking..
A better fix would be just increase the speed of attacks 4 and 5.
And, fix greatsword while they're at it

Another way would be to seperate the swing from the animations and just make them all the same pace that is an average of what they are now.

[FluffyCalico]

then why the heck do you think you get +5 to hit for the 3rd attack while standing, and +10 to the 4th and 5th?

..

Because some Dev at DDO never played DnD, got it backwards, and was too lasy to fix it. Many many of our game problems can be tracked back to this stupid mistake. To put it simpily swing 1 should come no sooner even if you dont take swing 3 and 4. Thats the way it works in paper and the way it should work here. Also each swing should have lower bounes at it was a friggin bounes swing to start with. But alas thay screwed up keeping track on how long a round should be and let the extra animations drag on. In short the borked the whole damm melee swing and bounes and animation thing from the ground up

[Aaxeyu]

A pure THF fighter probably have higher DPS than a pure THF barb.
Kensai and hasteboost is really strong, and add the capstone to that.


PS. Lol shade, ignoring everyone who disagrees with you. And if they write something that is in favor for THF you praise them.

[FluffyCalico]

A pure THF fighter probably have higher DPS than a pure THF barb.
Kensai and hasteboost is really strong, and add the capstone to that.


PS. Lol shade, ignoring everyone who disagrees with you. And if they write something that is in favor for THF you praise them.

Proof THB is the best

http://splinteredsunrise.files.wordp...ich-757855.jpg

[stockwizard5]

*shakes head*

[Aaxeyu]

Proof THB is the best

http://splinteredsunrise.files.wordp...ich-757855.jpg

Nice one



Shade(you seem to be reading ignored posts):
A twitching TWF should be able to reach atleast 100 swings per min, don't forget that when comparing perfect twitch THF to TWF..

[rezo]

What about the "warforged" in mod 9 with there THF ability's??

[ellamonster]

Oh, and ellamonster... reminds me, and do others notice, if you do not use tab in a pile of mob... an interesting thing occurs more often... if the character is pointed between multiples ... you'll hit multiples with your main attacks more often... is how we strike assasination on two to three mob at a time, or double vorpal,disrupt,etc in a single swing. I took notice this seems to occur more often when you do not tab target.

Not sure although I have noticed if you do not have a mob tabbed that the main swing jumps back and forth, IE hits the left then right, then left mob if guys are real close. I don't use the twitch method though and do let my animations go all the way through. The last 2 swings always seem to give me good glancing blows. (no numbers just pure superstition like using only purple dice or something :P )