TWF vs. THF, splash damage, range, and all that

[Aaxeyu]

You guys took the OP's thread and turned it into another debate over TWF vs. THF. Stop this debate and go make your own thread. I'm sure it will fit in well with all of the other "TWF vs. THF" threads.

I suggest you read the thread title one more time.
"TWF vs THF, spalsh damage and all that"

[LargeMarge]

I suggest you read the thread title one more time.
"TWF vs THF, spalsh damage and all that"

I suggest YOU read the first two lines of the OP one more time.

Ok, so I get that Two Weapon Fighting is teh winnah vs. Two Hand Fighting with a big honker for dps.

But...I was wondering about weapon range and glancing blows, and also about cleave and great cleave.

Don't come at me with that kind of ****...I will SCHOOL you!!

[Monkey_Archer]

using 25 damage glancing blows from my example...

25 * 9.5 = 237.5
237.5 / 20 swings = 11.875
11.875 * 102 swings / 60 seconds = 20 dps

Holy khopeshes
14 * 19 = 266
266 / 20 swings = 13.3
13.3 * 83 / 60 = 18.4 dps

So....
7 damage worth of effects for the dual khopesh is about equal to 1 additional target getting hit with glancing blows.

Its not exact but i see it approximately like this...
Dual Khopesh = Greataxe
Dual holy khopesh = Greataxe 2 targets
Dual min 2 khopesh = greataxe 3 targets
Dual min 2 khopesh with bard buffs = Greataxe 4 targets

[Aaxeyu]

I suggest YOU read the first two lines of the OP one more time.



Don't come at me with that kind of ****...I will SCHOOL you!!

Christ... Some trolls we got here today.

This thread is about TWF vs THF, and you are telling us to stop debating TWF vs THF... Sigh...

[Olympia]

Dual Khopesh Fighter...
61 * 15 hits = 915
183 * 4 crits = 732

Greataxe fighter...
49.5 * 17 hits = 841.5
148.5 * 2 crits = 297

are these numbers always correct? or do you assume critical confirmation enhancements (may well be unstated but valid assumption, i've never looked all that closely at these threads)

you are assuming that you require a 6 to-hit for the TWF and a 4 for the THF. for the khopesh user, this is (essentially) a 75% hit rate. therefore, one of the 4 crit threat swings will not confirm as a critical, and will actually roll as a normal hit. this changes the math by 122/20 avg. damage per swing.

again, if you are assuming enhancements/bloodstone/etc. your numbers ring true -- i have just not looked through too many of these threads and i do not know if this is the common assumption.

it just looked odd to me.

[Aaxeyu]

I see why Shade has you on his ignore list...



you should act like a Swede and stay neutral (or at least act non-belligerent on this subject)

Oh...BTW...if you knew anything about identifying logical fallacies...you would know that your statement is false.

Class Dismissed...FOOL!

Are you serious?

Let me quote you:

You guys took the OP's thread and turned it into another debate over TWF vs. THF. Stop this debate and go make your own thread. I'm sure it will fit in well with all of the other "TWF vs. THF" threads.

This thread IS about TWF vs THF. This IS a TWF vs THF thread, it even say so in the title. "TWF vs THF".
So why the heck should we stop debating TWF vs THF?!.

Don't be so quick with the name calling.

[Monkey_Archer]

are these numbers always correct? or do you assume critical confirmation enhancements (may well be unstated but valid assumption, i've never looked all that closely at these threads)

you are assuming that you require a 6 to-hit for the TWF and a 4 for the THF. for the khopesh user, this is (essentially) a 75% hit rate. therefore, one of the 4 crit threat swings will not confirm as a critical, and will actually roll as a normal hit. this changes the math by 122/20 avg. damage per swing.

again, if you are assuming enhancements/bloodstone/etc. your numbers ring true -- i have just not looked through too many of these threads and i do not know if this is the common assumption.

it just looked odd to me.

Asuming both hit on a 2+ and all crits are confirmed
No effects, no bloodstone, no seeker

[maddmatt70]

Asuming both hit on a 2+ and all crits are confirmed
No effects, no bloodstone, no seeker

Come now Monkey. A big part of the issue of twf vs. thf is that the more dps goes up the more twf benefits vs. thf. To be realistic you should include a comparison of twf vs. thf with all the weapons and all the buffs. It is for this reason that the developers are adding some additional damage with the thf feats and thf enhancements next mod.

One interesting decision is the warforged enhancements which adds 2% splash per enhancement according to tests. It sounds like all max dps thf should be warforged next mod otherwise they will be doing less dps.

[Olympia]

Asuming both hit on a 2+

ah, i didn't read properly -- you had a 15 for regular hits and a 4 for crits...i quickly read it and thought you meant that you hit 15 times out of 20, four of which were crits. my bad...

i don't mean to derail the thread...but seriously, how stupid is this? i mean, the fact that the devs have borked the mechanics to the point where monkey (or anyone else) can make (valid) assumptions that you only require a 2 to hit on similarly leveled mobs.

higher AC, less HP = more fun IMHO.

[ellamonster]

I think what Beerina is trying to do is figure out the DPS that THF does to other targets besides a single target. I guess if we took the sum of the dmg that was done from glancing blows durring an attack chain...would it come close to the total dmg that a TWF does? To answer that we would need data for the max ammount of creatures in a crowd that could be hit by glancing blows (which is why we need the range).

I don't have ANY numbers besides what I see floating above target heads, however I am running a Dwarven 16 Fighter all set for Kensai with greataxe, and my double positive GS Greataxe throws 20-40 splash easy and sometimes more. If I am fighting a group of trash mobs, by the time I tab to the second he is usually 3/4, third 1/2 etc. until the last of the crowd (some of them die before tabbed) needs 1 hit.

I do like to double stack fighter haste IV with haste though and that is when I truely shine, so without those enhancements it may be different.

This is my first char like that and I have been playing since headstart. He is an absolute blast to play!

[Emili]

The "much more dps" nonses is a subject I don't agree with as It has never been shown to me ingame ever. I play both a Two handed and two wepaon barbarians, with nearly identical stats and feats and do not find the TWF version vastly higher dps, infact I often find him lower depending on the monster being faced.

Even as a twitch fighter as myself... IMO, when put in practice I find this to be uncommon from actual in-game experience.

The issue to start between the two combat styles is that TWF is actually more then 2x the number of attacks in the same timeframe as THF, I have measured this out with a metronome. The 2hander is nice as it has the x1.5 and the TWF is x1(mainhand) and .5x(offhand) however... but consider also the amount of criticals in play are also doubled for the TWF. Given like characters sporting both styles though as the strength and +'s to damage increase so also does twf pull even further ahead of thf... and even becomes worse with weapons sporting numerous effects, ie.) a Min II more then twice the good, acid, etc... I absolutely know from my esperience practice dualing two Min II Khopeshes vs a Min II greataxe on characters with the same strength based +damage that the dual weilder will kill the same mob faster... I've done this both ways with the same exact characters repeatedly - I've switched feats in and out. The higher the strength and damage +'s on the character more benefit it has going twf.

The balancer thf has is glancing, it helps and will help more often after mod 9 as weapon effects will also count upon those... the reason the devs are adding that in is to make thf a more attractive option because they too actually see that twf is actually more dps.

Oh, and ellamonster... reminds me, and do others notice, if you do not use tab in a pile of mob... an interesting thing occurs more often... if the character is pointed between multiples ... you'll hit multiples with your main attacks more often... is how we strike assasination on two to three mob at a time, or double vorpal,disrupt,etc in a single swing. I took notice this seems to occur more often when you do not tab target.

[Monkey_Archer]

Come now Monkey. A big part of the issue of twf vs. thf is that the more dps goes up the more twf benefits vs. thf. To be realistic you should include a comparison of twf vs. thf with all the weapons and all the buffs. It is for this reason that the developers are adding some additional damage with the thf feats and thf enhancements next mod.

One interesting decision is the warforged enhancements which adds 2% splash per enhancement according to tests. It sounds like all max dps thf should be warforged next mod otherwise they will be doing less dps.

I just did the no buffs version to show the break even point. Note the above calculation is actually using 2-swing twitch stepping (102 attacks THF vs 83 TWF, non-hasted). Using auto attack, the THF is actually about 20-30% lower in dps.

Every buff you can think of (exept strength) will benefit the TWF about 70-110% more then THF, depending on how good the THF twitching is. And the THF only gets lower in dps if your twitch skill isnt perfect.

Its easy for Barbarian twich pros (like shade) to jump in and say that THF is equal or better then TWF, because, for barbs it can be. Barbs have much higher strength then a fighter, and a WF barb can add up to 12 extra damage per swing with powerattack enhancements.

The fact remains though, TWF is much higher dps then THF exept for the highest str, WF twichy barb types

[Monkey_Archer]

ah, i didn't read properly -- you had a 15 for regular hits and a 4 for crits...i quickly read it and thought you meant that you hit 15 times out of 20, four of which were crits. my bad...

i don't mean to derail the thread...but seriously, how stupid is this? i mean, the fact that the devs have borked the mechanics to the point where monkey (or anyone else) can make (valid) assumptions that you only require a 2 to hit on similarly leveled mobs.

higher AC, less HP = more fun IMHO.

hitting on a 2+ is pretty standard for most dps calcs...

Sure, TWF get -2 to hit, which could make a differnce on higher ac targets.
The problem is that to maintain a high swing rate, THF has to intterupt the attack chain... which actually makes the THF have a lower overall attack bonus.

So, in an accurate calculation (taking ac into accout) the THF would do worse. Either from hitting less, or swinging slower

[maddmatt70]

TWF is much higher dps then THF exept for the highest str, WF twichy barb types

Poppycock.. TWF is higher dps then THF for all builds and players..

[boldarblood]

Its easy for Barbarian twich pros (like shade) to jump in and say that THF is equal or better then TWF, because, for barbs it can be. Barbs have much higher strength then a fighter, and a WF barb can add up to 12 extra damage per swing with powerattack enhancements.

The fact remains though, TWF is much higher dps then THF exept for the highest str, WF twichy barb types

Definitely not true. On characters built equal the TWF beats THF, even the highest str, WF Twichy Barb Types.

Gap will be closed somewhat in mod9, but TWF will still be better.

[maddmatt70]

Definitely not true. On characters built equal the TWF beats THF, even the highest str, WF Twichy Barb Types.

Gap will be closed somewhat in mod9, but TWF will still be better.

By the way Boldarblood here is one of those THF expert twichy barb types.

[Aesop]

you should act like a Swede and stay neutral (or at least act non-belligerent on this subject)

Just so you know

Its the Swiss that are neutral.

Swedes are just big and friendly... and produce as a main export Bikini Teams (well at least in all the 80s movies)


Aesop

[Aesop]

I just did the no buffs version to show the break even point. Note the above calculation is actually using 2-swing twitch stepping (102 attacks THF vs 83 TWF, non-hasted). Using auto attack, the THF is actually about 20-30% lower in dps.

I thought the calculation was 83 PER HAND in a minute for TWF

and with the +50% theorized increase in THF RoA twitch should be about 121 ish per minute with with about 50 Glancing Blows


Just a question there

Aesop

[BlackSteel]

One interesting decision is the warforged enhancements which adds 2% splash per enhancement according to tests. It sounds like all max dps thf should be warforged next mod otherwise they will be doing less dps.

a 2% increase in chance to proc is a waste of AP, thats what about a 0.1 damage/swing increase for the first rank, and it only gets worse from there AP wise. Yes if you want to max out everything you can for damage then you would take it, but frankly theres alot of better things to do with 6 AP than get 0.3 more damage a swing (and thats with 3 extra dice always working, less gain if something has acid resistance etc.)

[natakeu]

From my perspective and not speaking from theory craft; since I have a TWF Dual Bastard Sword LeveL 16 Fighter I can tell you several things. First off there is only two differances between a bastard sword and a Khopesh that I have been able to note at all. First the range your attacks can fly is alot further out than a Khopesh, because of the reach issue you mentioned. I have seen my attacks penetrating through at least three waves of mobs stacked behind one another before. I havent been as lucky to have more than that since I burn through them so quickly. With the reach issue I have only used bastard swords and no other exotics.

Second is in the damage department using GS; GS Bastard Swords have a 2d8 damage rating while a Khopesh is 1d8. They have the same crit range but Khopesh is a x3 multiplier vs Bastard Sword's x2. If you have any questions specifically please feel free to pm me about the issue of TWF Bastard Swords, Beerina. I would be happy to test out some things to possibly answer your questions better.