TWF vs. THF, splash damage, range, and all that

[Beerina]

Ok, so I get that Two Weapon Fighting is teh winnah vs. Two Hand Fighting with a big honker for dps.

But...I was wondering about weapon range and glancing blows, and also about cleave and great cleave.

So neglecting things like expanded critical ranges, which make stuff like the khopesh very attractive, how does this all fit together?

If weapon range matters with respect to how many monsters around you get tagged by glancing blows and great cleave, i.e. how far they can be, then consider these scenarios (I'll assume a greataxe and greatsword have the same "range", as to bastard sword and dwarf axe).

All other feats being equal (assume all useful feats for these weapons are taken), compare fighters with:

- Greatsword

- Dual-wield bastard swords

- Dual wield longswords


They all have max proficiency and fighting for that style, i.e. all relevant TWF or THF offense-related, including "oversized offhanded weapon", whatever that's called, for the BSs.


Would the greatsword do better in a crowd for overall DPS, though not single-target?


Or is the "length" of such a thing not really an advantage, if it exists at all? I.e. BS and longsword will be able to reach almost as many monsters for glancing and great cleave?

[Beerina]

Any pages that have info on how weapon range, cleave, glancing damage, etc. is all supposed to work w.r.t. 2-handers, dual wield, and various weapons? E.g. a dagger is a lot smaller than a halberd (not that this game has halberds) so would a "swipe" get more glancing blow attacks with the longer one?

And for great cleave, would that be able to tag monsters that were further away from you than a dagger or short sword would (or whatever is the smallest, i.e. shortest thing you can cleave with)? I.e. if there were 6 monsters "around" you, but only 3 next to you, and the other 3 behind them, would the dagger, say, only be able to g-cleave through 3 at most, while the great sword or bastard sword, being longer, could g-cleave through up to 6, assuming the other 3 were within range of that weapon, whatever that means?

[Beerina]

Basically I'm trying to get at whether a great sword/axe would come into its own, dps-wise, vs. dual wield, in crowds, even though it be sub-optimal with respect to single-target damage.

And for dual wield, a similar question, such as if dual bastard swords might edge out shorter dual wield weapons because of similar "weapon reach" issues vs., say, a long sword and a short sword in the off hand, giving an advantage because of its "light" offhand weapon bonus/lack of penalty.

[Shroonith]

I dont even know where to start...

First off, the weapons for TWF DPS are the rapier, the scimitar, the kukri, the heavy pick, the light pick, the dwarven axe(and other axes if your dwarf), and the kopesh. The weapons for THF DPS are, the sword of shadows (named greatsword), the greataxe, the quarterstaff, the maul, and sometimes the falchion.

If you do a little research youll come across the fact that some two handers have very slow attack speeds. The greatsword for example, is approximately 15% slower than a greataxe.

So neglecting things like expanded critical ranges, which make stuff like the khopesh very attractive, how does this all fit together?

You cant just ignore this. This is the reason kopesh is the #1 dps weapon.

Honestly, even counting AOE from other abilities, TWF is the stronger choice if you care about being the best DPS.

However, THF is fun and I am currently lvling an enjoyable build that is a two handed fighter. He is going to be a WF 20FTR (pure) Kensai III - Maul user with a 50ish DC stunning blow.
starting stats:
18str
11dex (+2dex tome by lvl 12)
15con
10int (+2int tome @ start)
6wis
12cha(+1/2cha @ start)

feats:
GTHF(3)
Bludgeoning Spec/Focus/Crit (6)
PA
Toughness
SF:UMD
Force of Personality
Adamantine Body
Stunning Blow
---------------This leaves you with 3 feats left, go either ------------
spring attack, for glancing blows on your mobile attacks
or
improved damage reduction x3 (if you choose DR, lower DEX to 8, raise CON to 17, and forgo the dex tome)

skills:
23 intim
11 umd
10 points into jump
1 rank tumble
rest into balance

my last note would be that this build will work just fine with slashing weapons, like greataxe. If this is your preference, drop stunning blow and pick up another toughness or an improved DR

[Beerina]

Ok, that's good. Now what about my question?



Let's start with the most basic: "Most damage" -- is this single-target or overall on multiple targets?

This question is important because a guy swinging a big axe or sword in a big crowd would be greatly out-damaging (one would hope) a little single-target speed demon because of things like great cleave and glancing blows (and other stuff?)

Hence the "reach" thing comes into it. I continue to discuss bastard swords because they have quite a reach, so it's possible that that, like the long range of 2-handers, makes up some of the DPS difference in a crowd.


I guess I need a table of known values like range (arc and distance) of glancing blows for each weapon, and the knowledge of whether cleave and great cleave apply to which attack numbers besides the first, if any and if it applies to the offhand weapon, too.

Oh, and whether the bonus numbers (+x for magic, +y d6 for this or that elemental or good damage) apply in any way, shape, or form for attacks other than the first with the right hand. And glancing, too.


Yeah, that has to exist somewhere besides the design documents at Turbine, right?

[Beerina]

Pulling numbers out of my butt, something like this:


2-handers
Greatsword, glancing - range 8 feet, arc 40 degrees
Greatsword, 1st attack, cleave, great cleave - range 7 feet, arc 40 degrees, cleave/gcleave arc up to 60 degrees
Greatsword, 2nd+ attacks - no glancing, cleave and gcleave Ok

Greataxe, etc.

1-handers
Bastard sword, glancing, 1st attack right hand - range 6 feet, arc 30 degrees
Bastard sword, 1st attack, cleave, gcleave - Range 5 feet, arc 30 degrees, cleave arc up to 50 degrees
Bastard sword, 2nd+ attacks - no glancing, yes cleave + gcleave
Bastard sword, 1st offhand attacks, "" "" ""
Bastard sword, 2nd+ offhand attacks, "" "" ""

Khopesh - etc.



ad nauseum





So?





(And don't be rolling eyes at me because I don't know this -- That's the point of the question! And the acknowledgment of pulling the numbers out of my butt. )

[Tanka]

Bastard Swords have no splash damage, since you cannot wield them with two hands and must take EWP to use them.

Overall, TWF outdamages THF fairly significantly, even with GTHF/Kensai3/WF Weap Apt 3 (at least, from the testing I've read over from the Lamannia forums).

The Cleave/Great Cleave is a hotkey, it isn't instant, and while it does damage to things in an arc around you (~90 degrees for Cleave, ~270 degrees for Great Cleave -- if memory serves). Other than for on-the-run opening attacks, you end up doing less damage overall due to the buildup it requires, breaking your attack chain.

[natakeu]

From my perspective and not speaking from theory craft; since I have a TWF Dual Bastard Sword LeveL 16 Fighter I can tell you several things. First off there is only two differances between a bastard sword and a Khopesh that I have been able to note at all. First the range your attacks can fly is alot further out than a Khopesh, because of the reach issue you mentioned. I have seen my attacks penetrating through at least three waves of mobs stacked behind one another before. I havent been as lucky to have more than that since I burn through them so quickly. With the reach issue I have only used bastard swords and no other exotics.

Second is in the damage department using GS; GS Bastard Swords have a 2d8 damage rating while a Khopesh is 1d8. They have the same crit range but Khopesh is a x3 multiplier vs Bastard Sword's x2. If you have any questions specifically please feel free to pm me about the issue of TWF Bastard Swords, Beerina. I would be happy to test out some things to possibly answer your questions better.