TWF vs. THF, splash damage, range, and all that

[Monkey_Archer]

Any dps speced TWF fighter will leave you in the dust.
You have not proven any math wrong, the only thing you have proven is that you are really stubborn. I wish I had my monster on your server and i would show you some real DPS.

Isnt your monster a tempest kensai? which has basically the same dps as a pure kensai with capstone?

[Aaxeyu]

Isnt your monster a tempest kensai? which has basically the same dps as a pure kensai with capstone?

Yes, that is correct.

[Monkey_Archer]

Again, im seeing this the same way as the greataxe kensai... Less dps without boost more with boost... overall pretty much identical to a twitching barb

Tempest Kensai, 52 str, buffed
5.5 khopesh
5 enhancement
21 strength mod
8 powerattack
6 FE
2 rams
9 warchanter
1 prayer
5 weapon spec
2 kensai
---
64.5 mainhand
53.5 offhand
----
118 damage per hit

effects
14 holy
7 acid
5 slicing
---
26

total hit: 144

Crits
354
60 seeker
26 effects
44 acid burst/blast
---
484

144 * 15 hits = 2160
484 * 4 crits = 1936

(2160 + 1936) / 20 swings = 204.8 average damage

204.8 * 114 swings per minute / 60 seconds = 389 dps
204.8 * 148 swings per minute / 60 seconds = 505 dps

[Aaxeyu]

Using the attackspeed calculator found here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172819
I got the monster to average 458.95 DPS over 5 minutes. (using 50 str, a more accurate number imho)

Don't forget force ritual on your calcs btw..


Just for fun we can assume that it's able to reach 100 swings per minute with TWF twitching.
Then the DPS reached 545.


Note. I do not know how many sings per minute TWF can reach, 100 was just a random number. It would be nice if anyone could test it.

[Monkey_Archer]

Using the attackspeed calculator found here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172819
I got the monster to average 458.95 DPS over 5 minutes. (using 50 str, a more accurate number imho)

Don't forget force ritual on your calcs btw..


Just for fun we can assume that it's able to reach 100 swings per minute with TWF twitching.
Then the DPS reached 545.


Note. I do not know how many sings per minute TWF can reach, 100 was just a random number. It would be nice if anyone could test it.

This is a comparative calculation... using the same attack speed as cforce's data.
both my monster calc's and the barb THF calcs have the same buffs....
I am leaving out acid blast 20s, and force damage for both. which would slightly benefit the dual wielders... but not much

feel free to post your calculations, so I can see what buffs i might be missing.

I have tried to interrupt TWF, but havent managed to find a noticable gain worth the effort. constantly moving does give TWF a couple extra swings... maybe a 5% increase or something

[Aaxeyu]

This is a comparative calculation... using the same attack speed as cforce's data.
both my monster calc's and the barb THF calcs have the same buffs....
I am leaving out acid blast 20s, and force damage for both. which would slightly benefit the dual wielders... but not much

feel free to post your calculations, so I can see what buffs i might be missing.

I have tried to interrupt TWF, but havent managed to find a noticable gain worth the effort. constantly moving does give TWF a couple extra swings... maybe a 5% increase or something

You should include force ritual and acid blasts damage on 20. It's not as if force ritual is hard to get.

Found an error in your calc, you are only including the effects on one weapon.
Total hit should be 144.
It's the same on the crits.

[Monkey_Archer]

You should include force ritual and acid blasts damage on 20. It's not as if force ritual is hard to get.

Found an error in your calc, you are only including the effects on one weapon.
Total hit should be 144.
It's the same on the crits.

Good catch. numbers edited.

So the monster does a bit more then the FB.
Still.. Its unlikey that you will get both acid damage and FE damage at the same time.
And we are missing glancing blow procs.

[Monkey_Archer]

I think as a summary we could say...
THF twiching beats TWF for FB
TWF beats THF twiching for Kensai

[boldarblood]

Your opinion. I do think the melee in my guild are amoung the best Khyber has to offer and group with them in SoS all the time. And while I've tried running SoS with no other melees once, it didn't work out that great so I pretty much always take them now. Your right about my pug prefences for support classes, but I always group with guild melee without a second thought.

You used to tell me, well the math says TWF is so much higher.. Well I've proven the math was wrong, and that THF is higher in that too.. Yet now you don't agree with the forum math all of a sudden? Interesting.

You quite welcome to group with me in their to test your own TWF dps, perhaps Norg vs Axer on Sorjek. Infact I think i've invited you dozens of times lately, just been bad timing lately I spose.

re: Agro generation enhancements. Barbarians can get those too, just need to be warforged. Dwarf Barb should be able to get the best one in the game (200% hate) in mod9 should they implement stalwart defender for dwarves.

As of yet you have not proved the math wrong, you have proven you can increase your THF DPS, but still TWF DPS is still greater. Even playing a non stop twich on a THF barb its not close. My style of THF is almost identical to yours, as is Digz/NFG, who have some of the best dps on Khyber, all of us come from a first person shooter background, so constant movement, and breaking the attack chain is not that much work.

TWF is still > THF even with the upcoming mod 9. The gap is beginning to narrow, but still all things being equal the twf toon > thf toon. Plus the absurdity of having to make the THF players like you and I dance to increase the DPS.

[Aesop]

I would be nice if it wasn't necessary to "break the Chain" in order to have competative DPS.

In fact I don't think it should be.

I wouldn't object if the Twitch gained a bonus of say 10% ... but 30+% is too much.

I hope they fix this a little.

Aesop

[Shade]

As of yet you have not proved the math wrong.

I didn't need to. Monkeyarcher already did that. Go read the thread.

[Monkey_Archer]

I didn't need to. Monkeyarcher already did that. Go read the thread.

I used math... which technically makes the math right.

THF is still broken... only the highest str barbs can beat TWF barbs... and Highest str kensai can come close to TWF kensai.
All others classes are WAY ahead by using TWF.

[maddmatt70]

I used math... which technically makes the math right.

THF is still broken... only the highest str barbs can beat TWF barbs... and Highest str kensai can come close to TWF kensai.
All others classes are WAY ahead by using TWF.

Meh, the notorious cheat the attack chain false twitch counts. I thoroughly enjoy this scientific math. Oh and 1 + 1 = 3 because well I say so.

[Monkey_Archer]

Meh, the notorious cheat the attack chain false twitch counts. I thoroughly enjoy this scientific math. Oh and 1 + 1 = 3 because well I say so.

the attack rate is correct for twitching.

i counted 66 for the duration of a haste pot (132 per minute)
but shade's video here clearly shows 138 (using the haste timer, not external clock)

[maddmatt70]

Id say overall the barb wins...

Notes:
Powersuge wont last nearly as long as rage or frenzy
attack rates are not exact (just multiplied the twich speed by 1.1 and then 1.3 for haste boost)


Greataxe WF Kensai, 50 strength, fully buffed
10.5 greataxe
5 enhancement
30 strength mod
16 powerattack
6 weapon enhancements
4 kensai enhancements
9 warchanter
1 prayer
---
81.5 damage per hit
~41 per glancing blow

effects
7 holy
3.5 acid
2.5 slicing
---
13

total hit: 94.5

Crits (x3 crits)
244.5
30 seeker
13 effects
22 acid blast/burst
---
309.5


94.5 * 16 hits = 1512
309.5 * 3 crits = 928.5
41 * 9.5 glancing blows = 389.5

(1512 + 928.5 + 389.5) / 20 swings = 141.5 average damage

141.5 * 152 swings per minute / 60 seconds = 358 dps with capstone
141.5 * 198 swings per minute / 60 seconds = 467 dps with haste boost 4

Greataxe WF Frenzied Berzerker, 62 strength, fully buffed
10.5 greataxe
5 enhancement
39 strength mod
22 powerattack
9 warchanter
1 prayer
---
86.5 damage per hit
~43 per glancing blow

effects
7 holy
3.5 acid
2.5 slicing
21 vicious
---
34

total hit: 120.5

Crits (x5 crits)
432.5
30 seeker
34 effects
44 acid blast/burst
---
540.5


120.5 * 17 hits = 2048.5
540.5 * 2 crits = 1081
43 * 9.5 glancing blows = 408.5

(2048.5 + 1081 + 408.5) / 20 swings = 176.9 average damage

176.9 * 138 swings per minute / 60 seconds = 407 dps

I just watched axer's video. I counted 66 swings in the 1 minute video so I am not sure where you get your 138 swings per minute from.

[Monkey_Archer]

I just watched axer's video. I counted 66 swings in the 1 minute video so I am not sure where you get your 138 swings per minute from.

You are not counting half the swings...

there are 2 swings happening... 1 is the sideways swing.. the other is a downward swing (looks like he holds the axe straight out)

[maddmatt70]

You are not counting half the swings...

there are 2 swings happening... 1 is the sideways swing.. the other is a downward swing (looks like he holds the axe straight out)

So you are saying I counted 132 swings. So is it 66 swings or 132 or 138 or 150 that I should have counted? Oh do these swings actually correspond to attacks or is it just a change in the animation phase? Do these animation phase changes actually have a 1 to 1 correspondence to the number of attacks? I did not see any combat logs listed which actually showed the attacks while somebody was performing the perfect 2 attack cheat. You can begin to see just how poor your analysis really is with eyeball counts that may or may not correspond to attacks.

I have had thf barbarians in shroud speed record attempts and the players and group did well so I may be less in disagreement then you think in regards to dps disparities, but I still feel twf rangers, twf barbarians, and perhaps special twf paladin players do more dps (twf rogues can as well in the right situations) in the current game.

[stockwizard5]

lol maels...well for those of us who PUG and accept rogues and monks

Melee DPS is optional (to useless) against Sorjak - who PUGs in is irrelevent.

ps: my calculators (which I verify in game regularly) still show/predict TWF >> Twitch 2HF for fights that matter (assuming equal maxing).

[Shade]

lol comon norg. We know you love TWF, and your pro at it, but give me some credit here FFS bro.

We used to group together all the time. (and I've always attacked like this, since beta - don't recall you calling me a cheater before lol) You know my attitude towards any kind of cheat or exploit. Moving while attacking is absolutely not a cheat, exploit or anything else. If I believed it was, I would not post of video of how to do it.

And yes, ofcourse every swing does an attack.. Really not sure what kinda craziness your thinking there.

The attack while moving - does a glancing blow, then I do the attack while standing, which doesn't. So I do ~138 swings per minuit, and ~69.5 glancing blows per minuit.

Like I said, if you believe you, or anyone on Khyber can out DPS Axer, come to stealer of souls and try to pull agro from me, it's not gonna happen bro =)

Yes, I agree.. For most players, and most classes. TWF is generally more dps. But for me, and anyone willing to play how I do, THF is the highest DPS in the game, period.

[Monkey_Archer]

ps: my calculators (which I verify in game regularly) still show/predict TWF >> Twitch 2HF for fights that matter (assuming equal maxing).

Ive always said TWF beats THF (twich or not)
exept for the highest str barbarians... as shown in these calculations...

Unless you see something im missing?