TWF vs. THF, splash damage, range, and all that

[Monkey_Archer]

A pure THF fighter probably have higher DPS than a pure THF barb.
Kensai and hasteboost is really strong, and add the capstone to that.


PS. Lol shade, ignoring everyone who disagrees with you. And if they write something that is in favor for THF you praise them.

Id say overall the barb wins...

Notes:
Powersuge wont last nearly as long as rage or frenzy
attack rates are not exact (just multiplied the twich speed by 1.1 and then 1.3 for haste boost)


Greataxe WF Kensai, 50 strength, fully buffed
10.5 greataxe
5 enhancement
30 strength mod
16 powerattack
6 weapon enhancements
4 kensai enhancements
9 warchanter
1 prayer
---
81.5 damage per hit
~41 per glancing blow

effects
7 holy
3.5 acid
2.5 slicing
---
13

total hit: 94.5

Crits (x3 crits)
244.5
30 seeker
13 effects
22 acid blast/burst
---
309.5


94.5 * 16 hits = 1512
309.5 * 3 crits = 928.5
41 * 9.5 glancing blows = 389.5

(1512 + 928.5 + 389.5) / 20 swings = 141.5 average damage

141.5 * 152 swings per minute / 60 seconds = 358 dps with capstone
141.5 * 198 swings per minute / 60 seconds = 467 dps with haste boost 4

Greataxe WF Frenzied Berzerker, 62 strength, fully buffed
10.5 greataxe
5 enhancement
39 strength mod
22 powerattack
9 warchanter
1 prayer
---
86.5 damage per hit
~43 per glancing blow

effects
7 holy
3.5 acid
2.5 slicing
21 vicious
---
34

total hit: 120.5

Crits (x5 crits)
432.5
30 seeker
34 effects
44 acid blast/burst
---
540.5


120.5 * 17 hits = 2048.5
540.5 * 2 crits = 1081
43 * 9.5 glancing blows = 408.5

(2048.5 + 1081 + 408.5) / 20 swings = 176.9 average damage

176.9 * 138 swings per minute / 60 seconds = 407 dps

[Aesop]

Did you figure the expanded Crit Range of the Fighter?

and Did you add in the Extra Seeker from Kensai?


Aesop

[Monkey_Archer]

Did you figure the expanded Crit Range of the Fighter?

and Did you add in the Extra Seeker from Kensai?


Aesop

Yes and yes... oh ..err..

Well i added 4 seeker for kensai (should be 8) ill fix that when im not busy..
Crit range is included

[Aaxeyu]

How does the barb get 12 higher str than the fighter?

Oh, and with 10 charges of haste boost it's a very reliable source of DPS.
10 minutes of PS aswell.

[Riorik]

Yes, I see that you don't have a clue if you think we are going to face "something with 45 non-bypassable DR that ignore sneak attack's with excessively high Fortification."

It's MUCH more likely that we won't, and thus TWF is still better.

A good sign that shows how superior TWF is how far you have to stretch your imagination from the actual game to find situations were THF exceeds TWF.

The DR number wasn't completely pulled out of thin air - that's Harry's on Elite. Obviously, his DR is breakable with good+silver. However, the DR figure is very relevant were you to consider a Deathnip versus a Mineral 2.

I would suspect the mod9's Wraith guards (or whatever it is they're called) to at least partially fit some of this bill. Undead so no sneak attack - and who knows what Turbine will opt to throw on them to make them tough enough for us to have to worry about them. I do agree that 45/- or 45/EPIC is probably unlikely (or even rediculous).

Here's a question that needs an answer. I know you're going to want to dismiss my entire statement as somehow irrelevant - and ignore the details.

Build a scenario where THF is better. If you're so certain that not only is TWF is better...what is the scenario where it isn't? How rediculous does it have to get? Would the 45 pts of non-bypassable/no criticals/no sneak attack do that?

What is the point where THF reigns supreme?

[Monkey_Archer]

How does the barb get 12 higher str than the fighter?

Oh, and with 10 charges of haste boost it's a very reliable source of DPS.
10 minutes of PS aswell.

6 frenzy
2 capstone
4 rage (12 vs 8 Powersurge)

AS for haste boost...
20 seconds of 30% increase
subtract the 1-2 second activation time
add 10 seconds of cool down

and we get about a 15% overall gain... which puts the kensai at almost identical to the FB.

The differnce is that the FB can keep going much longer.
I dont have a pure barb so correct me if im wrong about the length of rage... but a barb can rage for at least 20 minutes?
A kensai can only surge for 10... and only haste boost for about 3 minutes. And needs to have both activated constantly to keep up with the barb.

[Aesop]

6 frenzy
2 capstone
4 rage (12 vs 8 Powersurge)

AS for haste boost...
20 seconds of 30% increase
subtract the 1-2 second activation time
add 10 seconds of cool down

and we get about a 15% overall gain... which puts the kensai at almost identical to the FB.

The differnce is that the FB can keep going much longer.
I dont have a pure barb so correct me if im wrong about the length of rage... but a barb can rage for at least 20 minutes?
A kensai can only surge for 10... and only haste boost for about 3 minutes. And needs to have both activated constantly to keep up with the barb.

Yep but also relise that you don't need to haste boost except when you are fighting something that doesn't die quickly.

Realisticly that's a Red or Purple named... and probably can at least include the PS in the calculations. Theoretical is fine, and optimum is fine... perhaps including a calulation for fights like Harry would be appropriate.

Just a suggetsion


Aesop

[Monkey_Archer]

Yep but also relise that you don't need to haste boost except when you are fighting something that doesn't die quickly.

Realisticly that's a Red or Purple named... and probably can at least include the PS in the calculations. Theoretical is fine, and optimum is fine... perhaps including a calulation for fights like Harry would be appropriate.

Just a suggetsion


Aesop

I think haste boost would yeild about 20% overall vs harry... Considering that the first boost can be activated before he drops. Which puts the kensai slightly ahead of the barb.

Remeber though, these numbers are with perfect twich skill. Given how haste boosts stack, any error in twich stepping would affect the kensai more then the barb due to the fact that a slower base swing speed yields a smaller gain from haste boosts.
Not to mention how much more difficult it would be to do with haste+capstone+haste boost

[maddmatt70]

The so called "math" is based on numbers that use auto attack. I have already proven in a video that stepping attack provides 40% more DPS - see Cforce's attack speed index in the strategy guides. Add that to the auto attack figures, and you see THF is higher. "Math" proven.

Proven ingane? Present the evidence. Else it is hearsay.

Ingame many monsters such as Sorjek in Stealer of Souls agro purely on DPS. No one has ever pulled agro from my THF Barb while fighting him.. And I often do take many of the best TWF barbs along with me. I'll accept any challenge from someone who wants to try to prove this otherwise.

Oh come on Axer you do not run with the best twf melee on Khyber and generally actually run with 0 melee (most parties you lead are just yourself and all the rest bards, clerics, and arcanes). I am not disputing that you are a solid melee that really is not the question just really can thf beat twf for dps. Twf dominate that discussion with dps on red names which in my opinion is the whole ballgame in DDO. A fighter or paladin will keep aggro over a barbarian by the way. Paladin with aggro hate generation enhancements and smites and a fighter who properly uses haste boosts.

[FluffyCalico]

Oh come on Axer you do not run with the best twf melee on Khyber and generally actually run with 0 melee (most parties you lead are just yourself and all the rest bards, clerics, and arcanes). I am not disputing that you are a solid melee that really is not the question just really can thf beat twf for dps. Twf dominate that discussion with dps on red names which in my opinion is the whole ballgame in DDO. A fighter or paladin will keep aggro over a barbarian by the way. Paladin with aggro hate generation enhancements and smites and a fighter who properly uses haste boosts.

Not to mention Aggo and DPS are not the same thing. If you have an item that gives +20% aggro and the other guy doesn't you would keep aggro with 19% lower DPS.

[Aaxeyu]

6 frenzy
2 capstone
4 rage (12 vs 8 Powersurge)

AS for haste boost...
20 seconds of 30% increase
subtract the 1-2 second activation time
add 10 seconds of cool down

and we get about a 15% overall gain... which puts the kensai at almost identical to the FB.

The differnce is that the FB can keep going much longer.
I dont have a pure barb so correct me if im wrong about the length of rage... but a barb can rage for at least 20 minutes?
A kensai can only surge for 10... and only haste boost for about 3 minutes. And needs to have both activated constantly to keep up with the barb.

Fighters get 3 str from enhancements.

Yes, the barb can keep going much longer, but the thing is that there is no fights that take that long.

But a thing that can tip the scale to the barbs favor is if the vicious damage from frenzy actually works on 100% of the glancing blows.

[Monkey_Archer]

Fighters get 3 str from enhancements.

Yes, the barb can keep going much longer, but the thing is that there is no fights that take that long.

But a thing that can tip the scale to the barbs favor is if the vicious damage from frenzy actually works on 100% of the glancing blows.

There are plenty of fights that last longer then a fighter can maintain both boosts. Tanking sally for example. Sure you can probably expect to be surging for the majority of the fight, but would definatly run out of haste boosts.
Sorjek usually lasts longer then 3 minutes too...

At best the fighter can only equal the barb's dps for 3 minutes, with constant haste boosts, power surges, and perfect twitching.

[stockwizard5]

sorjek Usually Lasts Longer Then 3 Minutes Too...

Lol

[Aaxeyu]

There are plenty of fights that last longer then a fighter can maintain both boosts. Tanking sally for example. Sure you can probably expect to be surging for the majority of the fight, but would definatly run out of haste boosts.
Sorjek usually lasts longer then 3 minutes too...

At best the fighter can only equal the barb's dps for 3 minutes, with constant haste boosts, power surges, and perfect twitching.

With a decent pug sorjek won't last 3 minutes, even less in mod 9. But there will undoubtly be longer/harder fights in the mod 9 content.

It seems I was wrong, barbs will have an edge. THF is still useles thou:P

[Monkey_Archer]

Lol

lol maels...

well for those of us who PUG and accept rogues and monks

[BlackSteel]

left out the frenzy damage on glancing blows btw ^^

[Monkey_Archer]

left out the frenzy damage on glancing blows btw ^^

Yeah, i left out all effects on glancing blows... not exactly sure the correct proc rate..
I do realize this benefits the barb alot more then the kensai with that reported 100% on vicious

[Shade]

Oh come on Axer you do not run with the best twf melee on Khyber and generally actually run with 0 melee (most parties you lead are just yourself and all the rest bards, clerics, and arcanes). I am not disputing that you are a solid melee that really is not the question just really can thf beat twf for dps. Twf dominate that discussion with dps on red names which in my opinion is the whole ballgame in DDO. A fighter or paladin will keep aggro over a barbarian by the way. Paladin with aggro hate generation enhancements and smites and a fighter who properly uses haste boosts.

Your opinion. I do think the melee in my guild are amoung the best Khyber has to offer and group with them in SoS all the time. And while I've tried running SoS with no other melees once, it didn't work out that great so I pretty much always take them now. Your right about my pug prefences for support classes, but I always group with guild melee without a second thought.

You used to tell me, well the math says TWF is so much higher.. Well I've proven the math was wrong, and that THF is higher in that too.. Yet now you don't agree with the forum math all of a sudden? Interesting.

You quite welcome to group with me in their to test your own TWF dps, perhaps Norg vs Axer on Sorjek. Infact I think i've invited you dozens of times lately, just been bad timing lately I spose.

re: Agro generation enhancements. Barbarians can get those too, just need to be warforged. Dwarf Barb should be able to get the best one in the game (200% hate) in mod9 should they implement stalwart defender for dwarves.

[Aesop]

re: Agro generation enhancements. Barbarians can get those too, just need to be warforged. Dwarf Barb should be able to get the best one in the game (200% hate) in mod9 should they implement stalwart defender for dwarves.

I "think" they said that while they don't have it coded for Dwarves right now they are working on one ...maybe for mod 10

the Problem is the link between Defensive Stance and Armor Boost

then again I've always thought that it was a bad idea to use boosts to power abilities.

Aesop

[Aaxeyu]

Your opinion. I do think the melee in my guild are amoung the best Khyber has to offer and group with them in SoS all the time. And while I've tried running SoS with no other melees once, it didn't work out that great so I pretty much always take them now. Your right about my pug prefences for support classes, but I always group with guild melee without a second thought.

You used to tell me, well the math says TWF is so much higher.. Well I've proven the math was wrong, and that THF is higher in that too.. Yet now you don't agree with the forum math all of a sudden? Interesting.

You quite welcome to group with me in their to test your own TWF dps, perhaps Norg vs Axer on Sorjek. Infact I think i've invited you dozens of times lately, just been bad timing lately I spose.

re: Agro generation enhancements. Barbarians can get those too, just need to be warforged. Dwarf Barb should be able to get the best one in the game (200% hate) in mod9 should they implement stalwart defender for dwarves.

Any dps speced TWF fighter will leave you in the dust.
You have not proven any math wrong, the only thing you have proven is that you are really stubborn. I wish I had my monster on your server and i would show you some real DPS.