Rangers get HiPS, but rogues don't?!?!

[wamjratl1]

On face value you have a bit of a point, but did you read what Hiding in Plain Sight actually does?

My strength based rogue has trouble getting seen if he wants to be, no matter how many "eyes" there are.

While HiPS would be pretty cool, you are so right lol. With the older way of doing part 5 of the Shroud, sneaking and pulling the Reds back one at a time, I sneak humped the Orthon and still couldn't get his attention...

[SableShadow]

They watched Lord of the Rings (Hey, someone should write a book about this movie!) and they all want to be Aragorn and Legolas. The see that DDO has Rangers and they give it a try.

True enough. Try telling someone about the Grey Mouser and you get a blank look and a "the Gay What?".

Not as bad as advising them to look up the Elric series, though.

[moorewr]

I think it would be ok to add it to Assassin III but not lower. It is ranger 17, something few rangers in this game will probably go to (lets face it most people mc into ranger for 6 levels for Tempest.) But on the other hand with rogues having faster sneaking it might be a tad over-powering. In the end though, how many groups even LET the ranger/rogue/bard/monk sneak ANYTHING?

In PnP, you get it at level 8 of the PrC.. you could have HIPS around level 12.. which was why I said Assassin II.

I doubt it would be overpowered, considering the game's crude AI - mobs might not see you, but they'll still follow you all over the map swinging blindly...

[SableShadow]

Well, if all it does is take away "eyes" (a circumstance minus to hide), then we're really just arguing about the name (should be a rogue toy!!!) rather than its real utility.

[Accelerando]

This is simply outrageous. Not only the implementation of the feat but dropping it on Rangers?

HELLO?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeCl...adowdancer.htm

Hide in Plain Sight (Su)

A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

HIPS is for assassins, should be included in the first tier PrE, and should immediately shed aggro. This is absolute garbage.

[rimble]

Rogues need more Rogue feats to be able to choose from. Put this on their list.

[barecm]

Lvl 20 rangers get the love is what I think you meant to say. 5th favored enemy is nice along with the 25% alacrity bonus for lvl 20 ranger. You can have hips as it is fairly useless as a feat. As a free feat, ok, but no chance I select that over an additional toughness or something else useful. Currently, my ranger can sneak past just about anything without camo spell or item.

[moorewr]

This is simply outrageous. Not only the implementation of the feat but dropping it on Rangers?

HIPS is for assassins, should be included in the first tier PrE, and should immediately shed aggro. This is absolute garbage.

They're giving it to Rangers right when they should be, per PnP. Note also that the base rogue class doesn't receive it. The crux is that they have included a rogue Prestige Class that grants HIPS and not given it to Rogue Assassins.

[moorewr]

Lvl 20 rangers get the love is what I think you meant to say. 5th favored enemy is nice along with the 25% alacrity bonus for lvl 20 ranger. You can have hips as it is fairly useless as a feat. As a free feat, ok, but no chance I select that over an additional toughness or something else useful. Currently, my ranger can sneak past just about anything without camo spell or item.

GRANTED feat. On top of everything else.

[Accelerando]

They're giving it to Rangers right when they should be, per PnP. Note also that the base rogue class doesn't receive it. The crux is that they have included a rogue Prestige Class that grants HIPS and not given it to Rogue Assassins.

Exactly. Additionally it is implemented in a terrible manner, meaning even if they ever give it to Rogues, it will be usless, and less powerful than the HIPS used by CR 2 (estimate) bugbears in Cerulian Hills. Worthless and insulting.

[barecm]

GRANTED feat. On top of everything else.

Doesn't change the fact that it is fairly useless. I would be amazed if there were a large amount of folks worried about working in a sneak/hide item into their builds. If I happen to have hide/sneak on an item and I wear it, it is purely coincidental. The camo spell is enough if you really need it.

I will gladly trade you hide in plain sight for your rogue skill choice. I would take my choice of improved evasion, crippling strike, slippery mind or skill mastery over hiding in plain sight.

[Draccus]

I will gladly trade you hide in plain sight for your rogue skill choice. I would take my choice of improved evasion, crippling strike, slippery mind or skill mastery over hiding in plain sight.

And I'll trade those for Tempest I...let alone Tempest III. I'll also be a dear and swap my Cheat Death for your 25% ranged speed boost. And then we can start talking about swapping ranger spells for my assassin spells...oh, wait, rangers got spells per PnP but assassins didn't. Sorry, I got nothing to swap for your barkskin and FoM and resists.

But I'm sure the thousands of people shelving their Tempest Rangers right now to reroll rogues are a great indicator of where the balance lies. ROFL.

[Maxwell1380]

From the release notes:

Ranger
* Hide in Plain Sight
o Prerequisites: Level 17 Ranger
o Benefit: You are a master when it comes to hiding in places others think impossible. At all times while sneaking, conditions are treated as two 'eyes' better - you can hide even in plain daylight, and it takes opponents longer to detect you.
* Fifth Favored Enemy
o Prerequisites: Level 20 Ranger
o Benefit: A ranger receives a damage bonus when fighting certain foes. The bonus starts at +2, and increases every five ranger levels.

Rogue
* Special Ability
o Prerequisites: Level 19 Rogue
o Benefit: A rogue may select Crippling Strike, Defensive Roll, Improved Evasion, Skill Mastery (selectable multiple times), or Slippery Mind.


SOooooo, Rangers get all the love. Rogues get shiate on a stick. Why do you hate rogues, Turbine developers?!

edit: Thought I would take a minute to cool down before I said something nasty. After about 3 minutes of reflection, I'm more angry than before. My rogue has two very pointy things waiting to embed in the responsible party's tender bits.

Beats what the clerics are getting this mod

[Cap_Man]

Don't mind rogues not getting HiPS (especially since it does not seem to shed aggro), but I can see how this could be very useful for Assassins. It does seem the devs are out to give rogues a hard time with this not being given to at least the assassins.

But the one thing that still bugs me the most is the capstone:

Rogue Cheat Death
Prerequisites: Level 20 Rogue, 74 Action points spent
Cost: 2 Action Points
Benefit: A master rogue can defy even death if their luck holds out. You have a chance of self-resurrection should you die, but this chance drops each time you die between rests. Maruts and devs have a particular dislike for you.

[Cinwulf]

hips as they have it won't be that usefull anyway, now if they added something like a bluff at the time you attempted it

[SableShadow]

But the one thing that still bugs me the most is the capstone:

Rogue Cheat Death
Prerequisites: Level 20 Rogue, 74 Action points spent
Cost: 2 Action Points
Benefit: A master rogue can defy even death if their luck holds out. You have a chance of self-resurrection should you die, but this chance drops each time you die between rests. Maruts and devs have a particular dislike for you.

Seems to take the devs a couple of mods to figure out rogues...it's always been this way. It'll come.

[kamimitsu]

Well, I've had a whole (waking) day to think about it, and I'm still steamed. Rangers get all their spells, and get HiPS (even though it should only work in Natural Settings, i.e. not in dungeons). Rogue Assassins get no spells, and no HiPS (however imperfectly it has been translated to DDO). Don't even get me started on there being no DDO translation for the Pick Pockets skill (AD&D, I know, but 3.5 has rules for it). Drow Rogue Assassins really got the shaft (sorry Dracc)- no Drow spells, no Assassin spells, no HiPS, no extra income from stealing. There always seems to be another class that can apparently do everything better than us... even some of the things we are supposed to be really, really good at. We can disable the traps, more often than not after they've been run through. The same ones that the splash rogue will rush to do (and I'll let him). We still have sneak attack, I guess, it works about 50% of the time on Harry (on normal), I believe it's higher on Hard and Elite (which will be run increasingly after the cap goes up). So, that leaves us with helping kill trashmobs and disabling traps (kinda). If many of the trash mobs in the new Mod have some amount of fortification, it will definitely prove the devs utter hatred for Roguedom. And what's worse, I'll keep playing mine... all the way to 20.

So... please fill in the remaining blank space with your favorite list of swear words and imagine that I'm muttering them under my breath, ala Yosemite Sam, as I slink off to bed.



[this space reserved for expletives]


























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[Kalari]

While I agree with the op's sentiment I dont think they were thinking about pure anything with this one. This will definitely be a boon to my 14/1 ranger rogue and my other rogue/ranger elven builds. But is it fair? No way Jose.

[barecm]

And I'll trade those for Tempest I...let alone Tempest III. I'll also be a dear and swap my Cheat Death for your 25% ranged speed boost. And then we can start talking about swapping ranger spells for my assassin spells...oh, wait, rangers got spells per PnP but assassins didn't. Sorry, I got nothing to swap for your barkskin and FoM and resists.

But I'm sure the thousands of people shelving their Tempest Rangers right now to reroll rogues are a great indicator of where the balance lies. ROFL.

Yeah, but you're talking about what is being given now, right? That's like me saying I would gladly change my spells for sorcy spells. I do agree that this game particularly is unsuited for making a pure rogue, however, the arguement you started was the pending changes, not a class comparison. Everyone knows the best rogues are lvl 1 with 19 levels of something else.

[drac317]

True enough. Try telling someone about the Grey Mouser and you get a blank look and a "the Gay What?".

Not as bad as advising them to look up the Elric series, though.

i always liked Farfard(not sure how to spell it) better,and would kill my own mother to get stormbringer.

though your right about telling people about Micheal Moorecock!!

edit: i had to do it