Delete Weapon Finesse as a Selectable Feat

[Mhykke]

You really think they did it because of complaints by "jealous" players?

Puh-lease.

Nerfing WoP weapons has been one of the more popular suggestions by players towards game changes.

I don't think it's too outrageous to think the devs may have considered the number of posts asking for a WoP change in their thought processes.

[ahpook]

We need to see what this "stunned for a short period of time" means. It needs to be long enough to kill the mob in most circumstances.

For the most part, the WoP nerf merely makes W/E the superior alternative as at least that mitigates damage.

[Strakeln]

I don't like the nerf.

But finesse builds are not dead. I have two that have always relied upon DPS as their preferred method of killing, they both work fantastically well and will likely continue to do so.

[MrCow]

Elementals just got much tougher to kill.

While it is true that elementals are tougher to kill, it still remains true that due to them having high HD (2.5 HD per 1 CR is their usual standard) a plain wounding weapon will still do more damage via CON-based HP loss than a plain greater elemental bane weapon in the higher end part of the game.

[Jay203]

Dreamspitter is the new WoP

[Pwesiela]

Wounding and puncturing will now render the mob helpless (lets hope for real).

Wounding and puncturing still lower a mob's con score.

Low con score means low total hit points.

I'd still much rather kill one of those giants in SoS when he has 0 con and a fraction of his original hit points.

Wounding and puncturing are not dead.

[FluffyCalico]

Wounding and puncturing are not dead.

Correct. W/p still does 90% as good as it used be to with 1 exception. W/p since it doesn't kill with con will put you very low on kill count. And as we know the "number cruncher I must be the best" group can't be low in the kill count so to them it is dead.

[Gelandor]

Just makes me very glad that thus far I have kept my finesse character pure ranger, because she will probably turn into an archer at lvl 20...

[bobbryan2]

/signed

No other change they've made has managed to stamp out those pesky dex builds... maybe if they remove the feat, it'll help.

Now... can we get back to the question of why I spent all my money on +5 transmuting khopeshes of decpetion for my rogue's pit fiend beaters...

Sad panda about that.

[Raegoul]

I understand that people feel stuff out of proportion with what actually will happen. Seriously it is not that bad. And you may ask if i have Finesse based Toons and yes i have 2 and one is the best DPS toon i have cause she a little halfling rogue and the other is a IntimiACranger and i built her expecting that Wounding and Puncturing would be changed. I know she will never have the DPS that other toons will have and i have accepted that long ago.

Changes have been made in the past that have affected my toons and i enjoy figuring out how make my toon useful again. I have only ever rerolled once and that was because the 28point build fighter had too few hps.

I sincerely believe dex based toons will remain important in any group especially for their stat-damaging role and i am happy to see that they will no longer be the solo-masters of every group i have been in for the last year or so. I like groups that work together even though i forget where i have gone most of the time. I am an oblivious zerger, i do not know that i am doing it and when people remind me that i am going to fast i stop, well most of the time. Anyway the point was i think this will be better for people when they group together and the dex-based fighter will have to learn to depend on their group work together and FULFILL THEIR ROLE IN THE PARTY.

Looking forward to the changes

[Lorien_the_First_One]

If you're going to kill character builds, why not just go for the throat?

Naw, my dex rogue is a pretty good DPS machine. I just wish I had added more con to her. Stupid mod4 build....

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Low con score means low total hit points.

I'd still much rather kill one of those giants in SoS when he has 0 con and a fraction of his original hit points..

I actually wonder how they are handling this. How are those 10,000HP mobs given 10,000 HP? Does removing 10% of their con remove 10% of their HP? Or are they being generated by the standard 25D8 + 25HP/con bonus + 9000 HP type forumula and all you are removing with 2 points of con is 25 HP, leaving the 0con mob with 9000ish HP.

[wamjratl1]

I actually wonder how they are handling this. How are those 10,000HP mobs given 10,000 HP? Does removing 10% of their con remove 10% of their HP? Or are they being generated by the standard 25D8 + 25HP/con bonus + 9000 HP type forumula and all you are removing with 2 points of con is 25 HP, leaving the 0con mob with 9000ish HP.

That was sort of my question too. Won't lowering their con still lower their HP to some sort of "base HP" that can't be gotten rid of by con damage? Depending on how this is implemented, we might still be fine. Stunned and auto-crits at 0 con should kill them pretty quick.

Hopefully, like Junts mentioned, Radiance and a WoE SS will probably still be pretty nasty (thanks to whoever put the SS on the AH for a song...)

[Kadran]

OK. Someone is going to need to explain to me how they nerfed WoPs. And before anyone sends me a link, I already read all of the release notes top to bottom.

WoP currently = Mob dead

WoP Mod 9 = Mob unable to attack or cast spells, and is subject to auto critical hits.

How is this nerfed? It's still an amazing weapon. Instead of killing the mob, you make it useless. This is usually preferable to killing the mob, and in places that you have to kill the mobs you have 5-11 other party members. Even if you're by yourself, you get auto crits! Get a sparkstriker from Deleras :-P

To all who think WoP is nerfed, if you're on Ghallanda, shoot me a PM. I'll buy them off ya. ;-)

[Aeneas]

reroll.

[rimble]

This isn't about killing things quickly. This is about completely invalidating not only a feat, but many existing characters in-game. It's about making weapon finessers nothing but support melees that go around weakening stuff. It's about the blatant disregard for the existing DnD ruleset in a game that bears the DnD name. It's about making knee-jerk decisions based on false assumptions, and the complaints of jealous players.

Well, if you want to talk DnD, Weapon Finesse is traditionally just taken by Rogues. In their case, Strength damage doesn't matter compared to the many-d6 Sneak Attack they can get, and so just hitting is the priority. Other classes, particularly Monks, may have attempted a Weapon Finesse path, but I never saw it work out well.

Weapon Finesse got really perverted and overpowered in DDO with stat damaging weapons. I believe you're right that its value is greatly reduced, but it will still be desired by Rogues and other high-Dex high-AC types.

However, this is a pretty painful change to characters that were relying on stat damaging. I always thought that was a precarious thing to bank on, but I still sympathize with people getting hung out here.

[Yaga_Nub]

Nerfing WoP weapons has been one of the more popular suggestions by players towards game changes.

I don't think it's too outrageous to think the devs may have considered the number of posts asking for a WoP change in their thought processes.

But that suggests that the devs have a thought process.

[SableShadow]

Weapon Finesse got really perverted and overpowered in DDO with stat damaging weapons.

Never thought I'd ever see *that* statement on the boards.

I believe you're right that its value is greatly reduced, but it will still be desired by Rogues and other high-Dex high-AC types.

Not a 100% sure that's true any more.

[Yaga_Nub]

Well, if you want to talk DnD, Weapon Finesse is traditionally just taken by Rogues. In their case, Strength damage doesn't matter compared to the many-d6 Sneak Attack they can get, and so just hitting is the priority. Other classes, particularly Monks, may have attempted a Weapon Finesse path, but I never saw it work out well.

Weapon Finesse got really perverted and overpowered in DDO with stat damaging weapons. I believe you're right that its value is greatly reduced, but it will still be desired by Rogues and other high-Dex high-AC types.

However, this is a pretty painful change to characters that were relying on CON damaging. I always thought that was a precarious thing to bank on, but I still sympathize with people getting hung out here.

Fixed that for you. Str and Dex damage haven't changed. And those character couldn't really do **** against bosses but now they can stat damage the bosses and actually add something to the party for the end fights.

[SableShadow]

Fixed that for you. Str and Dex damage haven't changed. And those character couldn't really do **** against bosses but now they can stat damage the bosses and actually add something to the party for the end fights.

Off-topic, but I think the red-boss change is going to lead to some more interesting tactics...not exploits, and not game breaking, but adding "more ways to skin the cat" kinda stuff. Kinda depends on the details.