Multiclass: Sin or Discipline?

[BurningDownTheHouse]

I think you're missing his point. Abilities should be select as if there was no class by picking feats. Period. That's all.

Balancing the abilities fir that new system is not something he disagrees with, I am sure.

In that case he might have a point.
But that means revamping the entire system (throwing classes as we know them to the garbage while we're at it).

[Borror0]

But that means revamping the entire system (throwing classes as we know them to the garbage while we're at it).

Oh ya. Bran is only ranting about class-based RPGs. It's not the first time he is does that.

Personally, there is something I like about class-based systems but I have never come to figuring what it was.

[Xyfiel]

I just wanted to add, truely multiclassing (i.e. 8 levels of each, or 5-6 levels of three different cllasses) is probably always a horrible idea... I've never seen a build even close to that that made sense.

Splashing 2 levels of fighter for feats, or 3 of pally for saves and AC and immunities and self-healing, or 1 monk for AC or 2 rogue for evasion are about all that would ever make sense. So going further would not be a sin. It would just be a mistake.

I have a 7/7/6 I just made, that is a better intimitank then anything I have seen posted. Have not decided if I want to share it yet. It is doable, you have to find a good synergy, and have it planned perfectly.

[Borror0]

Have not decided if I want to share it yet.

I would wait for Module 9 to post it. This way, you can tweak it for whatever M9 will bring.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

I have a 7/7/6 I just made, that is a better intimitank then anything I have seen posted. Have not decided if I want to share it yet. It is doable, you have to find a good synergy, and have it planned perfectly.

It's not better than any intimitank because you can't use the name Intimidate!!!!
MUWAHAAHHAAAA!!!!!!1!!!!one!!11!

[spifflove]

Do it. Its alot of fun and all of your friends are doing it.

[Nevthial]

It's a Discipline. I always recommend against it unless the player has an intimate knowledge of current game mechanics and a vision or goal to be reached.

Were this PnP , then things could be different. It's not though, so we have a tremendously less amount of leeway for any errors or miscalculations. In DDO, things have to be nearly dead on, or you will find your character(s) dead on the ground and useless.

[jmonty]

This toon will be more fun and powerful than any pure class cleric.

lol

[Phidius]

To some players…

Multiclassing as a kind of sin. Taking a multiclass is a temptation. It’s not something you plan. At one point you are leveling up and just walk over to the wrong trainer, like visiting a *****, and take a dip into a new class. Keeping their class pure is like guarding their virginity. They feel there should be a reward for staying pure. Taking a second class is like having an affair. You get a short-term thrill from the new abilities the second class brings, but in the long-term you regret the second class because you have damaged your long-term relationship.

For other players…

Multiclassing is a discipline. They plan their levels carefully. Often the splash class lowers their BAB, which hurts a low to midlevel fighter. They slow their advancement in spell levels, which hurts a low level caster. They balance their stat allocation at start, which hurts at first, but over time is compensated by their level-ups. In the end they have a multifaceted, self-sufficient, more entertaining character, which is also unique and feels like their own design and creation.

So which are you? Is multiclassing a sin or a discipline?

I don't see why this is an either-or kind of thing...

I plan it like a discipline, and enjoy it like a sin.

[Tanka]

Let's see...

Two purebreeds. I'll have a third and fourth when they introduce Half-Orcs.

Everything else? Multiclass, multiclass, multiclass.

[TEK]

I doubt that's a very good description.

More than likely, the character wanting to stay pure wants to play that class and not that class and something else. If we take the paladin class as an example, the player wants to play a paladin, not a paladin with six levels of rangers. He does not want to progress as a ranger; he wants to progress as a paladin.

It's not a sin. It's not a temptation. It's doing what they want.

If multiclassing can be seen as a temptation, it's more likely because going pure is gimping yourself. Or, if you prefer, that multiclassing is just much more rewarding that staying pure becomes an hard choice. It's a bit similar to temptation because, while they want to stay pure and progress as a paladin, their character would be far weaker than they want it to be.

That's why there are capstones: for those players who like to always progress in one class.

but its mostly a temptation in DDO for mostly the RPG aspect of it. People seem to forget(or not know) that in pnp what ever u multiclassed you had to roleplay it and justify its actions according to your alignment.

In DDO that restriction is gone and since there isnt any rolepplay downfalls the abilities of these said classes increases the temptation to mix and match without having to worry about your clerics god rain down havoc on you for you taking the path of a thief.

edit: also of note is prestige classes are harder to reach if you were to multi class given the prereq for alot of them. Not to mention the splashing of certain classes would hinder your chances further on a roleplay aspect as well.

[Kalanth]

I played a single class character once. I believe lvl 12 was the cap then and I deleted him shortly after lvl 14 came out. That was the last time I even considered doing it until the announcements of the PrE's. Now I am contemplating doing it one more time with the same character class (cleric).

As it is I use the multiclassing to bolster the character I have and make them powerful in the long run, or interestingly different. My characters are as such:

Kalanth Warfogred Rogue 13 / Barbarian 3 - Str rogue that can rage and use Madstone plus a rage spell to reach 36 strength. Multiclassing made a big difference on this character.

Sanction Warforged Cleric 13 / Paladin 3 - Went with bladesworn transfermation here and wields greatswords. He does not have the strength of Kalanth, but all of his saves are in the 30's thanks to his Paladin levels and high charisma. Multiclassing made this character what he is as well.

Weather Warforged Wizard 12 / Fighter 4 - Not what most people expect when I break him out as they are looking for a tank and I show up with a bow. Should I have gone ranger instead of fighter? Maybe, but I like WP Focus and WP Specialization and still have all the feats (Rapid Shot, Many Shot, Shot on the Run, Maximize, Empower, Extend). This character is a bit of a DPS monster but the fighter levels hurt when it comes to landing PK's. Multiclassing helped but likely should be rethought here.

Zink Warforged Bard 14 / Fighter 2 - A warchanter and a heck of a sword and board character, Zink is great in a tight spot especially because of the self healing and self buffing. The fighter levels opened up the feats for me to take Exotic WP Kopesh and Power Attack (which I never use, just needed it to become a Warchanter). Multiclassing really helped to make this character.

Daurian Human Paladin 10 / Ranger 6 - A tempest paladin, which is something I have not seen anyone else on Sarlona make so far. Daurian is my favorite character as he can do it all and with Mod 9 he will add evasion to his bag of tricks. Dual wielding longswords thanks to Oversized TWF and carrying a slew of Comp Longbows to dish out Many Shot damage (great when pulling back away from the blades in Shroud part 4) Daurian attacks fast and deals damage quickly. Add in the Exaulted Smite abilities and I have managed critical hits well into the hundreds. This character was started before tempest but not advanced far at the time and well off the original path (Paladin 2 / Ranger 6 / Fighter 8). With the release of tempest I gunned for it and it made this my favorite of all my characters. Mulitclassing really made this character what he is today as well.

Dogwood Halfling Rogue 1 / Ranger 2 / Paladin 1 (Projected with Mod 9 Rogue 4 / Ranger 14 / Paladin 2) - This character is being built to be a replacement to Kalanth in terms of being my main rogue. The speed at which Dogwood will be able to attack will well exceed Kalanth and his slower motions with his many quarterstaffs. Dogwood is a bit more the traditional finesser but with Tempest in there the character should well make up for it in attack speed. The rogue levels help bring up the Sneak Attack DPS and the paladin levels are strichtly to increase saving throws. Multiclassing should really make a difference with this character.

As you can see, I love multiclassing. It makes the character more complete in what I want to do with the character. Adding a bit of this here, a bit of that there and the character achieves a more complete package that I would be missing out dramatically on with a single class character. For example I have always said that I will never play a fighter past level 12 as that is when the recieve the last feat I would want from them. However, if I went 12 Fighter / 1 Bard / 7 Barbarian then it would be a bit more interesting to me because of the damage I could dish and the ability to use a larger list of items and self healing. Multiclassing is the best thing about 3.5 edition D&D and it is the one thing I miss the most in my 4th edition PnP games.

[Dexxaan]

Multiclassing is like throwing in odd ingredients into a dinner you are making. If you know ecactly what you are doing, you can make something great. But if you are unskilled or just experimenting, it will be ****.
So, I say discipline, like cooking.

So says a guy who played several pure classes to cap (some classes more than once) before ever multiclassing. And, I now have 3 multiclassed builds that are far superior to their pure class counterparts (and a pure cleric, sorc, and bard who could not possibly be improved by any splash levels of anything... To splash or not depends greatly on the main class.)

/QFT

Multi-classing is the lameness we must put up with since DDO is based on D&D, which is a class-based RPG.

Really, why should I have to give my character 2 levels of Rogue or Monk of 9 of Ranger to get Evasion? Why not make a Fear Tree leading to Evasion?

We? You mean RP'rs rght?

Remember guys...you are arguing with someone that never makes it past Level 8.....

Having said that, and in his defense, from his perspective it makes little sense to multi-class if the cap is 8 and maybe even 10, but when 12 - 14 and 16 are available theres absolutely no reason to aim higher and use our creativity to make more powerful, more interesting characters to play. (Argh almost felt like I was role-playing!)

It's a Discipline. I always recommend against it unless the player has an intimate knowledge of current game mechanics and a vision or goal to be reached.

Were this PnP , then things could be different. It's not though, so we have a tremendously less amount of leeway for any errors or miscalculations. In DDO, things have to be nearly dead on, or you will find your character(s) dead on the ground and useless.

Very good point.

In PnP Planning isn't crucial, therefore Purity makes "more sense" and performance secondary.

I don't see why this is an either-or kind of thing...

I plan it like a discipline, and enjoy it like a sin.

Nice way of putting it.

As it is I use the multiclassing to bolster the character I have and make them powerful in the long run, or interestingly different.

Some classes should multi-class and others shouldn't, some people should multi-class and others definitely not.

Level 20 Cap and capstones have made multiclassing a bit more debatable, because Purists have capstones to fall back on as a safety cushion that their way is the right way, and thats fine with me, the last thing I want is a world setting where I'm die-roll dependent to perform well.

[HumanJHawkins]

Dex replied:

Quote:
Originally Posted by branmakmuffin
Multi-classing is the lameness we must put up with since DDO is based on D&D, which is a class-based RPG.

We? You mean RP'rs rght?

FYI to the RP players out there, I don't consider some of my multiclass to be multiclass... I consider them to be a class that is not spelled out directly in the rules. (i.e. pure and true to their RP purpose)

For example, before mod 9, you could be the best Archer build you could be by taking 2 levels of fighter. From an RP perspective, this is like a woodlands hunter type archer studying traditional combat archery to become more skilled at what he does. He's not a ranger. Nor is he a fighter. He is a pure class Archer. (Which doesn't exist in the rules, so you have to make it b mixing a bit of the things that are available to you.)

This is actually a lot more of an RP way of thinking than anything else... I mean, what person defines themself as a "Fighter", and therefore would consider it somehow wrong to study something that would make them a better combatant just because it didn't exist in the "Fighter Class Rulebook"

[Mr_Ed7]

I just wanted to add, truely multiclassing (i.e. 8 levels of each, or 5-6 levels of three different cllasses) is probably always a horrible idea... I've never seen a build even close to that that made sense.

Splashing 2 levels of fighter for feats, or 3 of pally for saves and AC and immunities and self-healing, or 1 monk for AC or 2 rogue for evasion are about all that would ever make sense. So going further would not be a sin. It would just be a mistake.

I am not sure what you mean by "making sense" or "mistake". My 8 Fighter 8 Wizard is a BLAST to play, alot of fun really.

It does not matter how nerfy your build is, it just matters how good the other 5 party members are at doing what they do!

[Mr_Ed7]

I tend to make pure builds, because I was always taught in AD&D that if you did not focus on one class, you would miss-out on super-cool end-game powers and abilities. I am sticking by that for the most part.

That being said, my multi-class builds are based on the AD&D multi-classing of advancing in even amount of levels. My Dwarven 5 Cleric/ 5 Fighter has been pretty cool to play. A true Battle-Cleric as it were.

That also being said I would have preferred to have seen more race restrictons and class restrictions based on AD&D.


HUMAN ONLY BARBARIANS, PALADINS, & MONKS

HUMAN & ELF ONLY RANGERS

NO DWARF WIZARDS

NO PALADIN/ROGUE MIXES

NO WARFORGED

[Vivanto]

So which are you? Is multiclassing a sin or a discipline?

Erm, both? What about those who have a couple dedicated pure classes and the other half carefully planned out multis?

[Tanka]

That also being said I would have preferred to have seen more race restrictons and class restrictions based on AD&D.

Good thing we're playing in a world based on D&D 3.5.

Get over it.

[Mr_Ed7]

Good thing we're playing in a world based on D&D 3.5.

Get over it.

Figures coming from somebody with a Paladin-Rogue-Whatever build.

People have other opinions than you...
Get over it.

[Tanka]

Figures coming from somebody with a Paladin-Rogue-Whatever build.

People have other opinions than you...
Get over it.

I don't have the time or patience to argue semantics of why all of your opinions are wrong in this game.

To put it simply: Wrong.