Twf

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

Ok I know this one is going to turn into a train wreck like all my other posts. But I want to hear what people think about this.

Why does everyone who is TWF want to be a oversized two weapon fighter? You're arguing over 2-4 points of base damage.

One Handed Weapon

Kopesh 1d8 19-20 x3
Battleaxe 1d8 20 x3
Warhammer 1d8 20 x3
Rapier 1d6 18-20 x2
Heavy Pick 1d6 20 x4

Light Weapons

Handaxe 1d6 20 x3
Short Sword 1d6 19-20 x2
Kukri 1d4 18-20 x2
Light Hammer 1d4 20 x2
Light Pick 1d4 20 x4

By using a light off hand weapon you free up a feat and don't reduce your attack bonus.

[Nick_RC]

Because anyone with sence that oversizes uses a khopeshes (or too a lesser extent GS dwarven axes).

There is no light weapon substitute for a 17-20/x3 in a light weapon. Also the base damage on a DA is 3d6 vs 1d6 gor a handaxe.

N

[stockwizard5]

Look again at your own numbers ...

Kopesh 1d8 19-20 x3
Handaxe 1d6 20 x3

So its 1 + 10% * Base Better ... not 1 or 2 points better.

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

Ya TWF Kopesh. That takes up 2 feats. 1 to use Kopesh without a -4 to hit. Another to use 2 of them for no penalty.

I don't use Kopeshs cause I think they are overated. If I want to crit more often I take a Kukri, Scimitar, Rapier, or Falchion with the improve crit feat

Improve Crit Slashing
Scimitar 15-20 x2
Kukri 15-20 x2

I'll crit 10% more times then with the Kopesh. I did one of those charts Kopesh vs Scimitar, and the Scimitar out damaged the Kopesh. I need to find that chart I did.

Darn it. I messed up the charts

[Mhykke]

Your chart is incorrect. Check again.

[Nick_RC]

Ya TWF Kopesh. That takes up 2 feats. 1 to use Kopesh without a -4 to hit. Another to use 2 of them for no penalty.

Im assuming u are a melee class? And im assuming u are a 2 weapon fighter? If ur goal is DPS then freakin DPS. All the numbers add up in the end. Like the rage pot or the boost or getting hit once after manual madstone activation and switching boots so u can manually activate from a second pair so that u are consistently 2 higher. If ur an intimitank sure go a different route.

From what ive read u seem to be a x class does x type of guy. This reasoning flys in the face of the OP. DPS is DPS all the numbers add up. And there is a severe lacking of combat feats (worthwhile ones) in the game anyway.

N

[Gunga]

From what ive read u seem to be a x class does x type of guy.
N

I agree.

Get in game and roll a 28pt dps machine on G.

No Zerging.

[stockwizard5]

I did one of those charts Kopesh vs Scimitar, and the Scimitar out damaged the Kopesh

15-20/x2: 14 Normal Hits + 6 Critical Hits * 2 = 26
17-20/x3: 16 Normal Hits + 4 Critical Hits * 3 = 28

Since the 17-20/x3 also has higher base damage ... more damage * more times applied >> less damage * less times applied.

[Aranticus]

Ya TWF Kopesh. That takes up 2 feats. 1 to use Kopesh without a -4 to hit. Another to use 2 of them for no penalty.

I don't use Kopeshs cause I think they are overated. If I want to crit more often I take a Kukri, Scimitar, Rapier, or Falchion with the improve crit feat

Improve Crit Slashing
Scimitar 15-20 x2
Kukri 15-20 x2

I'll crit 10% more times then with the Kopesh. I did one of those charts Kopesh vs Scimitar, and the Scimitar out damaged the Kopesh. I need to find that chart I did.

Darn it. I messed up the charts

of coz when you look at the feats, it makes no sense. but people who use khopeshes are likely to be players who tweak their toons to such and extent that they are going to use that 2 feats to squeeze the max dps out

yes weapons like rapiers, scimitars crit more often than khopesh but the khopesh crit harder than them. while you do not crit more often, you crit for higher damages. look at these numbers here

bonus 0, 20 attacks. w/o IC
scimitar = 16x3.5 + 3x2x3.5 = 77
khopesh = 17x4.5 + 2x3x4.5 = 103.5 (26.5 more damage)

bonus 10, 20 attacks. w/o IC
scimitar = 16x13.5 + 3x2x13.5 = 297
khopesh = 17x14.5 + 2x3x14.5 = 333.5 (36.5 more damage)

bonus 10, 20 attacks. w IC
scimitar = 13x13.5 + 6x2x13.5 =337.5
khopesh = 15x14.5 + 4x3x14.5 = 391.5 (54 more damage)

this is just base weapon damage, i have yet include weapon procs such as maiming and bursts which are more favorable towards the khopesh

[Lonewolfe]

Ya TWF Kopesh. That takes up 2 feats. 1 to use Kopesh without a -4 to hit. Another to use 2 of them for no penalty.

I don't use Kopeshs cause I think they are overated. If I want to crit more often I take a Kukri, Scimitar, Rapier, or Falchion with the improve crit feat

Improve Crit Slashing
Scimitar 15-20 x2
Kukri 15-20 x2

I'll crit 10% more times then with the Kopesh. I did one of those charts Kopesh vs Scimitar, and the Scimitar out damaged the Kopesh. I need to find that chart I did.

Darn it. I messed up the charts

While I won't bash on your like many have/will, I will say that Khopesh is the best one handed dmg weapon. It really is just that simple. Dwarven Axes are very close, and rapiers can be good, too with the right set up. I personally like DA's just because dwarves get much love with inherent characteristics and enh's.....and they don't have to use a feat to use a very close 2nd dps weapon. That is just my preference, but I can argue that a very close 2nd is mitigated by the feat saved. Unless your a fighter and have extra feats to use. Many "perfect" builders will probably argue this point, but I don't think you are gimped by not taking oversized. You won't do as much dmg, but you won't be worthless. Mind you, you using a scimitar and a kukri vs using dual khopesh/DA is going to be a fairly significant dmg difference. It may make sense if you are using those 2 feats on something really good, but just know dmg will suffer. I'd suggest you atleast carry one of the big 2 in your main hand.

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

Ok this was a discussion of Oversized TWF over TWF, how did it become Scimitar vs Kopesh? Even I got off topic

[gfunk]

there are many practical reasons to use oversize two weapon fighting:

If you are a fighter then you get fighter enhancements for a specific weapon only.. so if you are a heavy pick user you would suffer -2 to damage (plus -1 in lesser based damage) by using a light pick in your offhand.

Also, part if it is about the ability to switch weapons around. i.e. if you don't use oversize two weapon fighting you are commiting yourself to have a full set of 2 different weapons, but you will be limited in how you combine them in your main and off hand.

Little weapons look stupid too. My WF fighter has a weighted (+8 )warhammer that he uses in his main hand and a wounding heavy pick of puncturing in his off hand. I have a weighted (+10) light mace, but I don't use it because it looks silly for a giant WF to wield one (plus with weighted+8 and all the wf and fighter enhancements you stun pretty much all the time anyways).

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

Ok I'll buy fighters taking it. What about Rangers, Rouges, Bards, Wizards, Sorcerers, and Barbarians taking it?

[krud]

ok then, khopesh or Lsword vs handaxe, kukri (w/IC slash). seems pretty straightforward - go otwf.

khopesh 15x4.5 + 4x3x4.5 = 121.5
lsword 15x4.5 + 4x2x4.5 = 103.5
handaxe 17x3.5 + 2x3x3.5 = 80.5
kukri 13x2.5 + 6x2x2.5 = 62.5

now for piercing. The dps numbers aren't as compelling - a shortsword is a good substitute.
rapier 13x3.5 + 6x2x3.5 = 87.5
ssword 15x3.5 + 4x2x3.5 = 80.5
Hpick 17x3.5 + 2x4x3.5 = 87.5
Lpick 17x2.5 + 2x4x2.5 = 62.5

[Junts]

Ok this was a discussion of Oversized TWF over TWF, how did it become Scimitar vs Kopesh? Even I got off topic

You were trying to argue light weapons were a viable substitute; they aren't, and khopesh's advantage rises as levels and +to damage (multiplied extra by thbigger crit ) rise.

otwf or not is a valid discussion: many dps builds hit so well they dont need the otwf feat to be fine with 2 khopeshes. however, otwf is the only useful feat on the list for tempest3 requirements, so many ranger builds are working it in now beause they want the enhancement.

very few barb/dps pally builds are taking otwf, because they can get by without it and are feat starved

its rangers (for temp 3) and fighters (who have so many feats they can't get rid of them) that are taking otwf. some str-based rogues or melee cle/sor/bard builds do, becuase they are working with less than full base attack and need the extra to-hit help. however, most of those are so feat-starved that they also do not work in the feat and use other means (destruction, sundering ooze, tharnes goggles, flanking, divine power clickies, etc) to make up the difference.

[Samadhi]

Ok I'll buy fighters taking it. What about Rangers, Rouges, Bards, Wizards, Sorcerers, and Barbarians taking it?

How many times do they need to say that it does more damage? That is the answer - btw.

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

How many times do they need to say that it does more damage? That is the answer - btw.

When they admit that a Scimy and Kukri of wounding and puncturing outdoes any Kopesh and saves you feats

[Samadhi]

When they admit that a Scimy and Kukri of wounding and puncturing outdoes any Kopesh and saves you feats

Soo... many... things... wrong... with... this... where.... to... start...

1) Damage is rarely relevant when you are wounding (unless you are a dex build struggling to bypass DR)
2) W/P can only occur on a piercing weapon...
3) DPS is relevant primarily against mobs that can't be hit with stat damagers......
4) Khopesh is more DPS and therefore worth a feat, same with OTWF

I am beginning to see why there is so much anger directed your way. Honest question: Are you relatively young or being purposefully obtuse to start "fun little forum battles hooray!!"
My suggestion if these really are honest questions, is to listen to the responses - not to imply that you will continue to argue with proven facts until "they admit" something patently false.

[Korvek]

When they admit that a Scimy and Kukri of wounding and puncturing outdoes any Kopesh and saves you feats

Scimitars and Kukris can't have Puncturing.

Also, they deal less damage than a Wounding Khopesh would.

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

Soo... many... things... wrong... with... this... where.... to... start...

Ok if there are so many things wrong with it then list them.

Scimitars and Kukris can't have Puncturing.

Yes they can I have a Dwarven Axe with those things