Queston for Battle Casters

[Samadhi]

How do you get your + to hit in the realm of relevant?

Do you waste half your time in combat clicking DP clickies? Do you tensor and, essentially, sacrifice the whole benefit of battle casting anyway? Do you just drop PA and let your damage struggle compared to a true tank?

Was bored enough to try to conceptualize this the other day but this was the one factor I couldn't get past the number-crunching into the realm of relevancy.

[muffinlad]

I only have one "battle caster" and it was something I fell into, and did not build very well...but here goes my observations.

A) Warforged are normally the folks I see with this build.
B) 12 Wizard, 2 Rogue, 2 Fighter/Pali/Ranger
C) 6th level spells gives them GH (+4 hit, etc)
D) Displacement, Blur, Stoneskin, Pots of Bark, etc help them buff up.
E) Firewall is fun to fight in, and Solid fog helps.
F) Int does not have to be that high. They are not casting insta kills, so DC is of minimal concern, and a +6 item with a +2 or +3 Tome means they don't have to start out very high, and can put their points in Str (if they are going two handed), Dex (if a finesse Puncture/Enfeebling build) and Con. Those same items for a different stat makes them pretty tough, able to hit most anything, and if going Str. build with two handed weapons, have a pretty decent DPS in addition to their spell damage.

All in all, I have seen a few of these played very, very well (and a few not so well), and for the most part it seems viable.

regs,

muffinwarwizard

[Gol]

I have a strength based level 16 battle caster (#1 below). Here's my 2 copper...

I boils down to what you want to be:
1) an off-tank with a lot of buffs
2) a wiz that can do a little melee

#1 - Always WF. 18 Starting strength, the rest in Con and Int. Levelups into Str. You'll never Finger anything of appropriate level and you'll only ever get second-rate DPS. This build is TONS OF FUN to level up through Gianthold as long as DPS is a viable tactic for killing. When it's not (aka, Vale and later), you're relegated to buffs and no-save spells (firewall, irresistible dance, etc). You melee raid bosses with quickened reconstruct.

#2 - Race may vary, but still usually WF. 18 starting Int, the rest split between Con and your to-hit stat. Some people go finesse (so Dex), others Str. Either way, you're still primarily a DC-focused caster with a backup plan of meleeing. You'll never melee a raid boss and you'll still kill via insta-deaths. Using a Sorc is an option here, though a Wizard is typical.

In the endgame scenario, both are fairly heavily dependent on Divine Power due to the horrible BAB of casters. It's +8 attack on a 15/1 build.

That said, the only other issue is class breakdown, but it really only applies to #1 above. For #2, you splash 1-2 levels of a melee class and you're done. The same is definitely an option for #1, but you're not bound to it. That build is incredible short on spell points, though, so if you have any hopes of doing anything other than buffing you'll want as many Wizard levels as you can squeeze in. My 15/1 implementation has 1300 SP which don't go very far if I start dropping a lot of firewalls. 14/2, 12/2/2, etc... Just think about what flavor your character is and what works for your concept. This is one of the few types of builds where class levels doesn't matter nearly as much as stat distribution.

That said, I think the coming prestige enhancements will have a lot of impact on this build. Specifically, Pale Master. It's PnP counterpart gave +4 innate Strength and even more immunities. That's huge. The other is Warforged Juggernaut. It's PnP counterpart is oriented around a combat tactic in PnP that just doesn't exist in DDO (charging), so it's almost impossible to predict what it's going to be. We've been told that it will count as a Barbarian PrE, so we can only assume it will be heavily damage & melee oriented.

I have high hopes for Battle Casters (Warforged especially) come mod 10 when we get the PrEs I mentioned. Until then... meh. It's just a good shroud portal beater.

[maddmatt70]

How do you get your + to hit in the realm of relevant?

Do you waste half your time in combat clicking DP clickies? Do you tensor and, essentially, sacrifice the whole benefit of battle casting anyway? Do you just drop PA and let your damage struggle compared to a true tank?

Was bored enough to try to conceptualize this the other day but this was the one factor I couldn't get past the number-crunching into the realm of relevancy.

Yes to answer your questions I constantly click dp clickies (I have about 30 on my caster), I also have masters touch on, and PA on. My caster is a wf two handed melee with a mineral 2 maul. I never tensor by the way. My caster is more of a caster then a melee; however, but I would guess most more heavily oriented melee casters would answer the same way.

[Junts]

There's a lot you can do to help your to-hit along the side, too, like sundering ooze guard and destruction and tharnes goggles. hitting is only difficult in ddo if you run with none of those and with pa/ce on all the time and your to-hit stat is questionable and you have no other to-hit bonuses.

[Monkey_Archer]

I run a 13wiz/2rogue/1barb

Drow (starting stats 14/14/12/18/10/10)
36 intel
22 strength (32 fully raged up)

2-handed fighter with min 2 greataxe
Yes i can finger just about anything...
DP clickies are the way to go for most combat since you can still cast...
I dropped PA a while back... as I could only really put it to good use while fully raged (double madstone, rage spell, barb rage).

Its not about stats, more about having the right equipment
With a buffed 32 str and full BAB from madstone you can hit just as well as most melee.
The other route: (WF max str build) ends up being better in combat but cant really fill the role of a real caster.

AS for this:

You'll never melee a raid boss and you'll still kill via insta-deaths. Using a Sorc is an option here, though a Wizard is typical.

I go toe-to-toe with harry all the time.... with up to 412 hp fully raged (base 282), Evasion and fireshield I will last as long if not longer then most other melees in there....

[Gol]

I go toe-to-toe with harry all the time.... with up to 412 hp fully raged (base 282), Evasion and fireshield I will last as long if not longer then most other melees in there....

Shame on me for using a 100% word ("never"). Builds that plan for this are "rare", though I'd still qualify you as type #2 in my post. You're missing power attack which is 12 less damage on every hit and 36 less on crits in exchange for the greater longevity of Evasion and a good casting stat. Spell Resistance owns you, though, so it's all a tradeoff.

[Monkey_Archer]

Shame on me for using a 100% word ("never"). Builds that plan for this are "rare", though I'd still qualify you as type #2 in my post. You're missing power attack which is 12 less damage on every hit and 36 less on crits in exchange for the greater longevity of Evasion and a good casting stat. Spell Resistance owns you, though, so it's all a tradeoff.

Well, didnt really plan it... this was my first build.. as soon as i unlocked drow. Didnt even know who harry was when i made him.

Like i said.. a type 2 battle caster is all about having the right gear.

And 3 less spell pen is annoying... but hardly owns me

[Samadhi]

Maybe I should have been specific - I have 99% of this build solved - but my first attack I'm rating at:

9 BAB + 4 GH + 1 Haste + 9 Str + 1 rage - 5 PA = 19

Now, if I tensor/madstone that shoots to 26, which is enough. Trying to DP all the time would ruin this build for me; but at the same time, if I need tensor/madstone to hit, then I'm not seeing the point of going battle caster anyway :/

[BigBadBarry]

9 BAB + 4 GH + 1 Haste + 9 Str + 1 rage - 5 PA = 19

Others:
+5 from +5 weapon
+2 competence bonus to hit (Spectral Gloves/Tumbleweed)
----

= +26

Add in DP clicky (+7) = +33 to hit

[Monkey_Archer]

Maybe I should have been specific - I have 99% of this build solved - but my first attack I'm rating at:

9 BAB + 4 GH + 1 Haste + 9 Str + 1 rage - 5 PA = 19

Now, if I tensor/madstone that shoots to 26, which is enough. Trying to DP all the time would ruin this build for me; but at the same time, if I need tensor/madstone to hit, then I'm not seeing the point of going battle caster anyway :/

Using mine as an example (mainly caster that can fight)

Caster mode:
8 BAB + 4 GH + 1 Haste + 6 Str + 1 rage +5 weapon mod = 25 (33 with DP clicky)
-enough to hit most things, and vorpal/stat damage (especially with bloodstone)
-dps is not great

Fighter Mode:
16 BAB +4GH +1 Haste +6 Str + 1 rage + 2 madstone +2 Barb rage +5 weapon mod -5 PA = 32
-High enough to hit
-Good dps
-Cant cast

Yours would be 1 higher to hit in fighter mode (3 extra str mod, no barb rage) and 4 higher in caster mode.

I play mainly as a caster, using DP like a fighter uses haste boost... for short fights.
Dont bother with DP on easy to hit mobs and when vorpal/stat damaging (assuming you have a bloodstone).
When you really want to hit hard use the tensors/madstone.

From my experience there is almost no way you can keep PA on constantly without either DP, tensors or Madstone.

Tumbleweed will be your most valuable item

[maddmatt70]

Shame on me for using a 100% word ("never"). Builds that plan for this are "rare", though I'd still qualify you as type #2 in my post. You're missing power attack which is 12 less damage on every hit and 36 less on crits in exchange for the greater longevity of Evasion and a good casting stat. Spell Resistance owns you, though, so it's all a tradeoff.

You are just flat out wrong. I have had two casters one was a dwarven level 16 wizard with 330 hp and the other is my wf level 16 sorc with 330 hp. They both easily melee Harry. It is like Monkey said Fireshield makes it easy to melee. I actually don't use fire shield when I melee just quickened stoneskin these days even with the lag. I suppose If I fight in the blades I would use fireshield but I usually step out after 45 sec to a 1 min on part 4 and unload quickened mm and polar rays on Harry although on part 5 I melee for 2 min and then do the same thing. I also remember the old days when Axer would melee with his sorc because he was bored the drow sorc might have had 260 hp or some odd thing he just buffed up and ran in there.

I don't really agree with you Monkey about the PA. I don't have much problem hitting with a 26 str, rage, gh, masters touch, divine power clicky, haste and a +5 weapon with PA on unless I go against a named orthon or something. Edit: yes you need DP on when you melee to get your to hit up there. You also do more dps by the way with it on Samadi..

[Monkey_Archer]

You are just flat out wrong. I have had two casters one was a dwarven level 16 wizard with 330 hp and the other is my wf level 16 sorc with 330 hp. They both easily melee Harry. It is like Monkey said Fireshield makes it easy to melee. I actually don't use fire shield when I melee just quickened stoneskin these days even with the lag. I suppose If I fight in the blades I would use fireshield but I usually step out after 45 sec to a 1 min on part 4 and unload quickened mm and polar rays on Harry although on part 5 I melee for 2 min and then do the same thing. I also remember the old days when Axer would melee with his sorc because he was bored the drow sorc might have had 260 hp or some odd thing he just buffed up and ran in there.

I don't really agree with you Monkey about the PA. I don't have much problem hitting with a 26 str, rage, gh, masters touch, divine power clicky, haste and a +5 weapon with PA on unless I go against a named orthon or something. Edit: yes you need DP on when you melee to get your to hit up there. You also do more dps by the way with it on Samadi..

Yeah... i even take my 8 str 278 hp sorc in melee with a dreamspitter on part 5 when im out of sp if im bored

I would like to keep PA.. but being mainly caster i have more important feats to take.

The bottom line though, is with a 9 BAB, powerattack will reduce dps on most targets... which is why DP clickies are so important if you plan on using PA.

[Samadhi]

The bottom line though, is with a 9 BAB, powerattack will reduce dps on most targets... which is why DP clickies are so important if you plan on using PA.

This was my main concern - and why this build will probably not see the light of day - I just can't see the viability of having my DPS potential depend on a 40 second clickie. Thanks for the responses all; looks like I'm sticking with bards.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Yes.
All the above.
Actually, my battlemage is only lvl 5 and already has problems with Power Attack on.

But I have a high Dex Wiz who melees quite often.....either to save SP or when running on empty. She hits most creatures just fine. Doesn't do a lot of damage but hits ok. She has Wep Finesse but no other melee feats/enhencents in the build.

I do use Divine Power clickies for big guys and/or scrolls of Tensers. But I seldom need them actually. 26Dex I think.

Most mobs do not have very high AC's.

Also, use Rogue tactics....hit from behind after someone else gets agro.....works well IMO.

[Phidius]

How do you get your + to hit in the realm of relevant?

Do you waste half your time in combat clicking DP clickies? Do you tensor and, essentially, sacrifice the whole benefit of battle casting anyway? Do you just drop PA and let your damage struggle compared to a true tank?

Was bored enough to try to conceptualize this the other day but this was the one factor I couldn't get past the number-crunching into the realm of relevancy.

I never use PA, and Spectral Gloves, Tharnes Goggles, Greater Bane weapons all help. Radience 2 FTW...

I find I mostly use vorpal sickles, or +4 Keen SS of Puncturing. With a Bloodstone, I rarely miss confirming the critical, so I don't care if I see a lot of misses, as I'm not looking for actual damage.

...
2) a wiz that can do a little melee

<snip>

#2 - Race may vary, but still usually WF. 18 starting Int, the rest split between Con and your to-hit stat. Some people go finesse (so Dex), others Str. Either way, you're still primarily a DC-focused caster with a backup plan of meleeing. You'll never melee a raid boss and you'll still kill via insta-deaths. Using a Sorc is an option here, though a Wizard is typical.
...

Precious is definitely in the #2 group, although it depends on what you mean by "melee" a raid boss. If you mean to kill it using weapon damage only, then I'm guilty as charged

However, Precious has gotten pounded on by the Reaver, Queen Latifa, and Sorjek the Liche . He's also gotten to take some swipes at Harry and Sally, though if he's the last one standing I'd recommend the other party members get ready to click "Release".

...
I do use Divine Power clickies for big guys and/or scrolls of Tensers. But I seldom need them actually. 26Dex I think.

Most mobs do not have very high AC's.

Also, use Rogue tactics....hit from behind after someone else gets agro.....works well IMO.

I think playing a battle-caster is good training for all melee... it's amazing how many melee will stand right next to the intimidator and ignore their health dropping.

[maddmatt70]

Monkey Archer, I also think divine power gives a battle arcane more dps because it increases the number of attacks. When you hit a divine power clicky you have to cheat the last attack or the last couple of attacks in the sequence, but you get more attacks then a wizard with its regular bab and hence do more dps.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

A couple more things.

Battle casters work very well at low lvls.

I haven't lvled up a real battel caster to high lvls yet, but they have two problems.
Half BaB and Half HP.
You can disguise it all you want, but they will always be half BaB and half HP melees.

Now...that's not as bad as it first sounds though. As they will always be the best buffed melees around....and many are self healing as well.

I've seen some perfom as main tank in top raids. And do well.

But I feel that in general they are ill suited for a main tank / Intimitank role.

Divine power and tensers temp solves the BaB problem.
And good buffs and self healing makes the HP issue not so important.
But both are still a disadvantage.

I do plan on lvling my lowbie one up eventually though.....and he is a ton of fun at low lvls.
And I've also had fun with my Pure Wiz meleeing on occasion. She doesn't do much damage, but with a host of good weps can help out the party a lot.
Paralyser alone frees other melees up to use pure DPS weps.
Vorpals and Smiters, and Puncturers def add to party's kills.
Most battles end so quickly that it seems a waste to use SP in many of them.
So I save SP for the big fights. It's made my Wiz more fun to play IMO.

[Phidius]

A couple more things.

Battle casters work very well at low lvls.

I haven't lvled up a real battel caster to high lvls yet, but they have two problems.
Half BaB and Half HP.
You can disguise it all you want, but they will always be half BaB and half HP melees.

Now...that's not as bad as it first sounds though. As they will always be the best buffed melees around....and many are self healing as well.

...

I'd say Battle Casters work very well at all levels, when played correctly.

What good is a blue bar when your red bar is gone? Part of a battle caster's ability is to continue casting when chaos is raging around the party. I'd like to think that the melee in my parties appreciate the fact that once I cast Haste, they can run free for 3 minutes without running back to babysit me... usually 'cause I'm in the middle of the fray with them.

However, are they really "half HP melees"? I'm too lazy to find the post that details the breakdown, but the only difference is in their hit points per level...

Toughness Feat, Toughness Enhancement, Greater False Life, Constitution bonus, Greensteel bonus: same for both
Hit Die: 1d4 versus 1d8/1d10/1d12

Most battle casters aren't going to spend their Feats on Toughness, but that's probably because there are better Feats to take...

[Monkey_Archer]

I dont think ive ever seen a battle caster with 12+ caster levels ever serve the purpose of main tank. Ive seen 8/8, 9/7, and 8/6/2 splits work as well, or even better, in melee then a "real" melee class.
With 12+ caster levels you just cant achive a high enough attack/ hit points to fight as well without clickies. (although i would love to be proven wrong) And its better to focus on being able to fill a normal "caster" role and max int/cha.