Best race for Cleric? Dwarf? Halfling?

[kinar]

Very few situations require a mass cure to be used.

end part vod is another example.

Impressive, you've managed to name one of the few other situations.

I also find it funny that you detail overhealing based upon the heal spell yet tell me I don't have a clue for choosing a meta that doesn't affect heal instead of one that does (hence SAVING mana on heals).

[WolfSpirit]

There are many reasons to choose a particular race and that holds true for every class or multi-class build. Most of the decision on what is "right" or "best" really comes down to personal preferences. In some cases there are strong reasons to select a specific race for a specific build and those reasons will make it obvious to nearly everyone that the combination is "right" or "best" -- but whether you choose to follow that in your own character design will depend on what it is you are trying to achieve.


So the point I'd make is this -- choose the race you prefer and the development path that interests you regardless of what is "right" or "best". In the end it is your character. As long as you are contributing to the success of the group things will be fine.

Spoken with wisdom

[MetaSyn]

Which is the best? I have heard many things... If anyone could lay their opinion down i would greatly appriciate it! Thanks!

Heya, the best cleric race really comes down to your playstyle or what you want from the build, each race has its own advantages and disadvantages all are great at in thier own roll so build with that in mind and stick with the path you setout for.

[Aranticus]

Impressive, you've managed to name one of the few other situations.

I also find it funny that you detail overhealing based upon the heal spell yet tell me I don't have a clue for choosing a meta that doesn't affect heal instead of one that does (hence SAVING mana on heals).

As far as empower heal, it is only "required" if you use dragonmarks or if you don't have maximize (which imo is worse than using dragonmarks). Otherwise it is a waste of mana.

you are saying empowered healing heals are a waste of mana? lets see....

10 more sp for 50% more healing. empower healing enhancements can reduce it by 4 sp. thats 20% more sp for a L5 spell to heal more effectively by 50%. as the spell level goes up, the % of extra sp spent is reduced. waste of mana but it does limits the cleric to a healbot mode which is a moot point since you are talking about healing

[Chaos000]

LOL!

I rewrote my comments (which you quote) several times as I was fairly sure they would attract some comment. I'd say that most of your observations are on target. I'll have to say that the melee character point is a bit off however. Most melees take damage faster than they can self heal and that is why most groups look for healing oriented clerics. I'd consider melees to be less selfish if they would carry self healing for between fight healing and be content as a cleric to work at keeping them up during fights.

heh. Sorry for the knee-jerk reaction, starting off with a cleric as my main from way back when the game first launched, the expectations for a cleric "perform his duty of keeping everyone alive equally irregardless of how little some are contributing to the group" is a bit of a sore subject for me.

On the melee character I look at it this way. They know how much damage they take normally in a fight and should in turn not take on any more than they can take down without being healed through it. But instead the tendency is to say "hey, can't heal through this damage so I won't bother *trying* even if it's needed to keep me alive because the plat cost isn't worth it and it's what the cleric's blue bar is for."

So the melee instead keeps swinging and engaging the next monster in sight with a total disregard for his health bar. Which is fine if he's dropping the monster fast enough that each one doesn't have a chance to really deal any damage before they die because THEN it would actually make sense to keep healing the guy who will guarantee that you'll have half a blue bar left when the quest is done. But the melee *cough*mana-sponge*cough* that receive more damage than they deal out?

I figure the people that feel like badly built (or perhaps under-equipped) melee's are also "entitled healing" can roll up their own cleric's to perform that role. Cuz lot of clerics are pretty much fed up with charity healing and that's why we tend to check anonymous, roll up battleclerics, and/or only play healer exclusively in guild groups.

[kinar]

you are saying empowered healing heals are a waste of mana? lets see....

10 more sp for 50% more healing. empower healing enhancements can reduce it by 4 sp. thats 20% more sp for a L5 spell to heal more effectively by 50%. as the spell level goes up, the % of extra sp spent is reduced. waste of mana but it does limits the cleric to a healbot mode which is a moot point since you are talking about healing

I'm saying that I found it funny that you are claiming applying the empowered healing meta to the heal spell isn't a waste of mana in the same post where you detail that the heal spell is already (without empowered healing) overhealing the target.

However, I'm not arguing math here. Your math is correct and the logic behind that math is sound. I'm saying that it simply doesn't apply to the arguement.

I'm saying that situations where you NEED to heal someone for more than the heal spell does without metas are few and far between. Very rarely do you ever need to heal somone for more than 250-300hp. And in those rare cases, you are usually spamming mass heals because everyone is getting hit. In those rare cases where you are spamming mass heals, maximize is sufficient. I'm saying the heal spell should never use more than 35mana (base). And very rarely should a cleric use a spell other than heal. This is what I'm saying. Given this opinion, the Empowered Healing feat is a waste of mana (because you should almost never be using the spells it applies to and in the rare cases, maximize is sufficient).

[Leyoni]

heh. Sorry for the knee-jerk reaction, starting off with a cleric as my main from way back when the game first launched, the expectations for a cleric "perform his duty of keeping everyone alive equally irregardless of how little some are contributing to the group" is a bit of a sore subject for me.

On the melee character I look at it this way. They know how much damage they take normally in a fight and should in turn not take on any more than they can take down without being healed through it. But instead the tendency is to say "hey, can't heal through this damage so I won't bother *trying* even if it's needed to keep me alive because the plat cost isn't worth it and it's what the cleric's blue bar is for."

So the melee instead keeps swinging and engaging the next monster in sight with a total disregard for his health bar. Which is fine if he's dropping the monster fast enough that each one doesn't have a chance to really deal any damage before they die because THEN it would actually make sense to keep healing the guy who will guarantee that you'll have half a blue bar left when the quest is done. But the melee *cough*mana-sponge*cough* that receive more damage than they deal out?

I figure the people that feel like badly built (or perhaps under-equipped) melee's are also "entitled healing" can roll up their own cleric's to perform that role. Cuz lot of clerics are pretty much fed up with charity healing and that's why we tend to check anonymous, roll up battleclerics, and/or only play healer exclusively in guild groups.

No, you're spot on. A melee who can't deal damage faster than they're taking damage isn't helping anyone. It does happen on occassion when everything seems to aggro on one character. But generally speaking the melees should be able to take out the trash without a lot of hand holding.

I think we're talking pretty much about the same things and that I might have missed part of your point about melees. If they are dealing damage and taking down the mobs and it means healing during the fight I'm generally ok with it. But, I agree that the TWF and THF bozos with no armor who will never deal more damage than they are taking because they insist on rushing into every crowd and tossing intimidate....

Like I said, I usually let them die.

[Phidius]

I figure the people that feel like badly built (or perhaps under-equipped) melee's are also "entitled healing" can roll up their own cleric's to perform that role. Cuz lot of clerics are pretty much fed up with charity healing and that's why we tend to check anonymous, roll up battleclerics, and/or only play healer exclusively in guild groups.

I'll take the combo platter with all 3, thank you.

or in other words a cleric who plays in the manner of an aoe damage dealing sorcerer that straight up refuses to use reconstruct scrolls and repair serious wands on the warforged in the party even if someone else offered to buy them.

I agree with your post, Chaos, but felt it necessary to add a little clarification.

Low Level: give a wands of repair light/moderate/serious/critical
High Level: give a stack of reconstruct scrolls

A WF melee gave Precious a wand of repair serious for a Stealer of Souls run. I thought to myself, "Hey, that's a generous WF... giving a wand he looted to someone who he thought could use it". I then proceeded to scroll reconstruct him throughout the quest, and was a bit surprised when he asked for the wand back after the quest.

Precious doesn't even carry wands of repair critical anymore. Pots are used for those quick no-need-to-retarget-or-switch-weapons repairing, scrolls after a fight if SP is low, quickened reconstruct for the rest.

[tc12]

As far as empower heal, it is only "required" if you use dragonmarks or if you don't have maximize (which imo is worse than using dragonmarks). Otherwise it is a waste of mana.

This is because the Heal spell does not need ANY metas applied to it and should be the primary spell used for healing by clerics. Very few situations require a mass cure to be used.

RE: feats, I think your method isn't the only way to go. On my cleric I carry empower healing and maximize and never turn off either. This combo is simply the most efficient healing in terms of HP cured / SP spent. Can it overheal? Sure. But player skill in learning the timing of casting minimize overhealing.

As for heal vs mass cures I tend to use my SP for the latter given how efficient it is with the metas. Even moreso with Lorikk's necklace and/or Gloves of the Glacier. (I have the former but not yet the latter.) Spot healing is what scrolls are for, and SP heals for occasionally rescuing someone who really got in trouble. BTW do you consider topping up the party after a fight one of the "very few situations" for mass healing? I'm unsure how any cleric wouldn't be using masse cures for that on a regular basis.

And when things go bad? Mass healing with emp+max pumps out the healing when you just need it as fast as possible for a bit. And it's even more efficient if it allows you to limit your use of Quicken to when you need it to avoid failing concentration checks due to you taking damage too. Shroud pt 5 is a good example of when you'd need quicken to keep up, while you often don't need it with emp+max.

So quicken for me is situational, empower healing and maximize are always on. My cleric only walks around with 1530 SP, and I heal very well this way without using a lot of scrolls.

Edit: All that said I'm sure other approaches to healing can work fine too. I'm not going to say my way is the "one right way". I just want to make sure the quote above or other parts of the thread aren't touted as such either.

TC

[Chaos000]

I agree with your post, Chaos, but felt it necessary to add a little clarification.

no worries

I'm so used to doing the scroll - wand - potion - mana ...etc. because they're all off different timers and sometimes every second counts. I agree tho' reconstruct scrolls are definitely preferable to wands at higher levels.

Towards endgame I'm pretty sure we can all agree that we'd much rather get 5 major mana pots over a stack of 100 heal scrolls or even 2k plat.

[kinar]

...Shroud pt 5 is a good example of when you'd need quicken to keep up...

If you need quicken to keep up in the shroud, you've got bigger problems.

Quicken makes a very minimal difference in casting times for cures/heals and it doesn't shorten the global cooldown or the normal spell cooldown. So you are basicly shortening the initial casting time for your first cast only (when making successive casts) which isn't a lot to start with.

the only time it is really necessary for a cleric to have quicken is if they are trying to cast BB or a symbol (or some other spell with a LONG casting time) while in the thick of **** that interupts you. And even then, it is seldom that it is really necessary.

I carry quicken on only one of my 3 clerics and that is because has < 20AC and no ranks in concentration. But even then, I only turn it on when soloing so I can cast BB.

[BlackSteel]

I like quicken for casting blade barrier just to speed it up, not really worried about being interrupted. I would never ever use it to cast cures tho, high AC, evasion, and a 50+ concentration when buffed should be enough.

[Aranticus]

I'm saying that I found it funny that you are claiming applying the empowered healing meta to the heal spell isn't a waste of mana in the same post where you detail that the heal spell is already (without empowered healing) overhealing the target.

However, I'm not arguing math here. Your math is correct and the logic behind that math is sound. I'm saying that it simply doesn't apply to the arguement.

I'm saying that situations where you NEED to heal someone for more than the heal spell does without metas are few and far between. Very rarely do you ever need to heal somone for more than 250-300hp. And in those rare cases, you are usually spamming mass heals because everyone is getting hit. In those rare cases where you are spamming mass heals, maximize is sufficient. I'm saying the heal spell should never use more than 35mana (base). And very rarely should a cleric use a spell other than heal. This is what I'm saying. Given this opinion, the Empowered Healing feat is a waste of mana (because you should almost never be using the spells it applies to and in the rare cases, maximize is sufficient).

the question is not whether maximise is sufficient but rather why would a healing based cleric take maximise? i do understand the usefulness of maximise as i have 2 offensive casting clerics and for me, empower healing is a burden on my already small feat list. but a healer cleric will be better served with empower healing rather than maximise. i agree the heal spell should not need more than 35 sp but what i'm stating is that alot of clerics use spells other than heals. given w/o raid loot and just enhancements, a cleric will benefit more on healing spells with empower healing than maximise

[Aranticus]

If you need quicken to keep up in the shroud, you've got bigger problems.

Quicken makes a very minimal difference in casting times for cures/heals and it doesn't shorten the global cooldown or the normal spell cooldown. So you are basicly shortening the initial casting time for your first cast only (when making successive casts) which isn't a lot to start with.

the only time it is really necessary for a cleric to have quicken is if they are trying to cast BB or a symbol (or some other spell with a LONG casting time) while in the thick of **** that interupts you. And even then, it is seldom that it is really necessary.

I carry quicken on only one of my 3 clerics and that is because has < 20AC and no ranks in concentration. But even then, I only turn it on when soloing so I can cast BB.

i so agree what is highlighted in red. if anyone needs quicken on shroud 5..... reroll

as to shroud 4, yes quicken can really help if you happen to run into a fireball or blades

[Zenako]

i so agree what is highlighted in red. if anyone needs quicken on shroud 5..... reroll

as to shroud 4, yes quicken can really help if you happen to run into a fireball or blades

Quicken is a LOT more for NOT getting interrupted than actually casting it faster in my experience (BB excepted). Therein lies its true value to a cleric, not the rate at which you cast healing spells.

[BlackSteel]

Quicken is a LOT more for NOT getting interrupted than actually casting it faster in my experience (BB excepted). Therein lies its true value to a cleric, not the rate at which you cast healing spells.

theres a skill for that too, I noticed a HUGE difference in interruptions when going from mid 30s to mid 40s. Now sitting in the 50s raid buffed for concentration skill its almost impossible to be interrupted by melee damage or blade damage

[daniel7]

I can tell you one thing for sure. Your party doesn't care what race your cleric is.

[Mr_Ed7]

Dwarves!!!