Best race for Cleric? Dwarf? Halfling?

[ELBaritone22]

Which is the best? I have heard many things... If anyone could lay their opinion down i would greatly appriciate it! Thanks!

[miceelf88]

Dwarves are good because of the hp and the dwarven faith enhancements.

But consider humans who get an extra feat, which many clerics find very useful.

[Comfortably]

Well IMO Dwarfs are the "master race" when playing a cleric.

You have more hp(+4 con over all)
You have more sp(Dwarven Faith AP line)
+5 to your saves vs. spells (3 from the AP line, 2 given)
+4 to your balance skill (to get up after your knocked down)


Again just IMO, hope you enjoy your cleric what ever race you choose

[Darth_Sizzle]

Human: Extra Feat, Extra Skill Points, Virtually the same possible HP as Dwarf, and most importantly (at least to my min-maxing/offensive casting self) Highest possible Wisdom.

Edit: Oh yea, and humans aren't short and ugly.

[Comfortably]

Human: Extra Feat, Extra Skill Points, Virtually the same possible HP as Dwarf, and most importantly (at least to my min-maxing/offensive casting self) Highest possible Wisdom.

Edit: Oh yea, and humans aren't short and ugly.

A 39 Wisdom is better than a 38?

[Aaxeyu]

I would say halfling, if you go for monk splash. Otherwise dwarf or WF.

[Darth_Sizzle]

A 39 Wisdom is better than a 38?

Um, no....38 is better than 37

The only way you could have 38 on a non-human is if you managed to get the trinket from the Abbott raid or happened to be lucky enough to get a +4 tome from the Jester.

Math FTW

[kinar]

healbot? -> human (extra feat > extra sp from dwarf > dragonmarks from halfling)
"battlecleric"? -> dwarf (extra hp and sp via enhancements since yer probably not gonna use yer feats on sp enhancements)
14clr/2mnk? -> halfling (extra dex and reflex enhancements makes for great evasion)
14clr/2rog? -> human (extra skill needed for rogue skills)

I still haven't figured out why people like wf clerics. perhaps that will be my next one just to figure it out. blanket imunities are nice but there are spell/item equivilents for all of them.

[kinar]

Um, no....38 is better than 37

The only way you could have 38 on a non-human is if you managed to get the trinket from the Abbott raid or happened to be lucky enough to get a +4 tome from the Jester.

Math FTW

my 14/2 halfling has 38wis and only has a +2 tome. with abbot trinket and +3 tome he would hit 40

[rimble]

Just to share a random thought I had...many weeks ago some developer mentioned they were considering or working on the Dragonmarked Heir PrE line...and I couldn't help but think, if that grants even MORE uses of your dragonmarks, Halflings may become the undeniably superior healing Cleric. Of course healing isn't the end-all-be-all, and things like Mass Heal may shake things up, but it's something to consider. And of course, three Feats aren't cheap.

[Demoyn]

Which is the best? I have heard many things... If anyone could lay their opinion down i would greatly appriciate it! Thanks!

It really depends on what you want your cleric to do. Halflings are the best healbots (and the best monk-splash battle cleric). Dwarves are the best standard battle cleric. Humans are the best offensive caster clerics.

On another note: if you ever see someone saying that the extra human feat is better than dragonmarks on a healbot, don't listen to them ever again. They obviously don't have a clue what they're talking about mathematically.

[Darth_Sizzle]

Well IMO Dwarfs are the "master race" when playing a cleric.

At some point in the past (probably around your join date) Dwarfs were considered by many to be the "master race," primarily because of the Toughness enhancements. Some have still clung to this idea, despite the changes that have been made to toughness. However, most people have embraced the fact that HP have become much more balanced across the board - which allows them to examine multiple other aspects of race diversity.

You have more hp(+4 con over all)

Actually +3 over Humans (which is only a +1 modifier) and +4 over the other races (a +2 modifier), except Warforged of course. A +1 modifier is 16 HP currently (will be 20 HP at level 20); a +2 modifier is 32 HP currently (will be 40 HP at level 20). Combining this with the Toughness enhancements yields a total difference of: Dwarves +26 HP over Humans (or +52 over the other races, except Warforged). This is assuming all of these characters max Con and take the Toughness feat, and available enhancements.

+5 to your saves vs. spells (3 from the AP line, 2 given)

Will saves and fortitude saves on a Cleric are high enough, without even trying. Reflex is another story... However, unless I am mistaken, the Dwarf "saves vs. spells" doesn't count for reflex saves (i.e. from a Fireball).

[Darth_Sizzle]

my 14/2 halfling has 38wis and only has a +2 tome. with abbot trinket and +3 tome he would hit 40

I wasn't talking about a multi-class Cleric/Monk. If I was, then a Human would be at 40 already, with abbot trinket and a +4 tome he would hit 42.

[Joseph]

It is really a question of play style.

Dwarf: Best suited to the role of fighting and healing due to HP and a slightly larger pool of HP (it is not that much more). If you take toughness, all of the enhancement lines for toughness, and the Racial Con bonuses to get the full benefit, then yes, you are talking about a LOT of extra HP on a Dwarf cleric.

Human or Drow (or High Elf if you have 32 point builds unlocked): I think the two of these are best suited to the max wisdom or near max wisdom role for landing spells like command and greater command - BUT - you sacrifice a LOT on a character to get one extra DC.

Halfling: Personally, with the healing Dragon Marks, I think Halflings take the win for a cleric. You can start with a 12 strength (halflings get +1 to hit due to size) so it is equivalent to a 14 strength. For spell points, Dragon Marks win by a long shot.
Mental toughness AND Improved Mental toughness only give you a total of 210 more spell points by level 20 (two feats).

If you use three feats, you can take the Dragon Mark lines heals to give you (at a cost of 10 action points by level 14) 9 CLW (90 mana), and 7 CMW (105 mana) and 5 Heal (175 mana) for a total of 370 mana saved - by level 14. At level 14 you only have 150 mana extra from the mental toughness lines - but at level 14 you would have an additional 220 mana (22 CLW spells, for example). Since empower healing and devotion / potency items work on Dragon Marks, you are able to heal more, AND cast more offensive spells or buffs. You gain +1 to hit, +1 to saves, and +1 to armor class. Starting dex of 10 means one +2 tome and you max your Dex bonus to AC when wearing full plate - a single +6 item and you max it when wearing Mith FP.

And don't forget - the Divine line of enhancements. If you take Diving healing at level 3, and keep increasing it each chance you get, you end up with some powerful spot healing (that heals all WF full amounts - just like Lay on Hands). So you can cast a 1d3 heal that ticks off once every two seconds, for thirty seconds (or about 22HP back) by getting the third level one, it ticks for about 70HP back (total cost of 6 action points). So when your WF barb, or any tank for that matter, but especially WF, runs into a fight, you just cast that spell and spot heal while they are fighting.

In my experience, Dwarves make the best combat clerics - and are only a little less capable than a Halfling at healing. Halflings make the best middle of the road (combat at low levels, trash mobs at high levels - excellent healing at all levels - the best healing, IMO).

Humans are ok. Other prefer them

Oh, and finally - turn undead SUCKS. It is a complete waste at high levels. The only reason to have Charisma is if you use the divine enhancements (which I use). At low level (3), my Halfling (with no gear to improve charisma) and one action point spent to increase the number of turns he gets each day, drops his divine cleansing about six times I believe (average of 135 extra HP in heals). At high levels, with the other ehnancements and a Charisma bump of +6 (item), he is putting down 11 or 12 (I forget) at an average total amount healed of 810 HP). If I took the extra turning feat, it would add another 210 HP of healing from that ability.

So with 3 feats to Dragon Marks, you are left with three more feats to use...

Level 1 - Least Dragon Mark of Healing (because no reason to extend spells, and not enough mana to justify empower - 3 CLW uses = 30 mana - at level 3, your next feat selection, you will still only have 20 mana from mental toughness).

Level 3 - Empower Healing Spell (because it starts to make a difference now)

Level 6 - Lesser Dragon Mark of Healing (because it still does more for you than mental toughness - and Empower Healing Spell works on it).

Level 9 - Extend Spell (because re-casting buffs sucks).

Level 12 - Greater Dragon Mark of Healing (because it is cheaper than a scroll!)

Level 15 - Up to you - some people might prefer Mental Toughness at this point (extra 85 SP). <-- Edited - Thanks Kinar

As ever, this is just my opinion. Enjoy

[Aeneas]

Above poster is probably correct. If you can spare the 3 feats and aren't trying to do some kind of funky twf tempest mix or some mess, the halfling wins because of dragonmarks saving spell points, monk compatibility, and reflex saves thanks to dex and racial enhancements.

Don't forget that in addition to the above poster's numbers, metamagics apply to dragonmarks but do not cost you anything.

[Joseph]

I was not even thinking about the monk/cleric line - can you still get a decent AC from that? Not great - but enough to keep from being an arcane and having to run all over the place and then not be able to heal people.

Add - if you did go monk / cleric, then you could benefit from the extra monk feats - is it possible to take the Dragon Marks then, because if so, you could take Empower Healing spell at Cleric 1, and then Lesser Dragon Mark of Healing at Monk 1, and then Mental Toughness at Monk 2 (unless it is Monk only feats - I don't know). Haha, now I have to look at rolling another cleric

[Darth_Sizzle]

Human or Drow (or High Elf if you have 32 point builds unlocked): I think the two of these are best suited to the max wisdom or near max wisdom role for landing spells like command and greater command - BUT - you sacrifice a LOT on a character to get one extra DC.

Drow or Elf (High Elf? I assume you just mean a 32pt build, there is no difference in max possible stat score when you get 32pt builds.) Drow and Elf have the same max possible wisdom as every other race except Warforged. Humans are the only race that gets an additional advantage; and it only costs 2 AP - not "sacrificing a LOT on a character."

I'm uninterested in playing a "pure heal bot." If I was, then I suppose the Dragonmarked Halfling 14 Cleric/2 Monk would be the way to go.

[kinar]

Level 15 - Up to you - some people might prefer Mental Toughness at this point (extra 155 SP).

MT only gives 85 sp currently at cap 16. I'm guessing you already know this since you detailed it above in your post.

As for your dragonmarked halfling, but I guarantee my human 28pt healbot that started with 16wis and has the following feats: emp, max, ext, mt, spell pen, gr spell pen, tougnness will outperform that dragonmarked halfling in terms of keeping the group alive.

Giving up essentially 4 feats (3 for dragon marks and 1 for human), not to mention the 10 extra enhancement points) is simply far too much to much of a detriment to any character.

[Leyoni]

There are many reasons to choose a particular race and that holds true for every class or multi-class build. Most of the decision on what is "right" or "best" really comes down to personal preferences. In some cases there are strong reasons to select a specific race for a specific build and those reasons will make it obvious to nearly everyone that the combination is "right" or "best" -- but whether you choose to follow that in your own character design will depend on what it is you are trying to achieve.

I have a L10 cleric on extended break while I level up some other characters. He is an elf. I chose elf because of the raise dead enhancement that came at L6. That may seem trivial but it was what I was wanting to do. For me it was less important to build the "right" or "best" than it was to build the character that I wanted to build.

My second cleric (in the works) is a reroll of my original dwarf cleric. I selected dwarf for all of the reasons mentioned by others -- the enhancement lines, toughness, etc. While the elf cleric is generally a heal-bot the dwarf cleric is generally a battle-cleric (although able to drop into heal-bot role if needed).

My third cleric (also in the works) is a warforged. In this case my goal is a character able to solo a large amount of content for those times when I'm bored or just can't find a group. He will combine levels of rogue and wizard and the cleric levels will be for buffs. Undoubtedly a horrid build concept but one that I want to play....

So the point I'd make is this -- choose the race you prefer and the development path that interests you regardless of what is "right" or "best". In the end it is your character. As long as you are contributing to the success of the group things will be fine.

[Leyoni]

I was not even thinking about the monk/cleric line - can you still get a decent AC from that?

No reason you cannot get good AC from this combination. It will depend on where you want to put your emphasis but you should be able to have a huge DEX to go with your huge WIS and so hit 60's at least with the right gear.