Best race for Cleric? Dwarf? Halfling?

[Leyoni]

Add - if you did go monk / cleric, then you could benefit from the extra monk feats - is it possible to take the Dragon Marks then, because if so, you could take Empower Healing spell at Cleric 1, and then Lesser Dragon Mark of Healing at Monk 1, and then Mental Toughness at Monk 2 (unless it is Monk only feats - I don't know). Haha, now I have to look at rolling another cleric

I'm not positive but I don't think dragon marks are an option for monk feats. You should check out the character planner. I also don't think mental toughness is a choice.

[rezo]

I would said Human or Halfling. I got both a capped and they great. The Halfling is a heal bot and no I didn't go with the Dragon marks I when with toughness and mental toughness. My Human went with Spell casting feats like Empower, extend, mental toughness and so on. I wouldn't focus on trying to get a wisdom of 34+. I'm set at 30 on my human and a 32 wisdom on my heal bot and it works out just find. My

[rezo]

Oh yeah, I would look a do a clr./monk just yet scine the caps are coming out. After there out then make the choice.

[Thriand]

Will saves and fortitude saves on a Cleric are high enough, without even trying. Reflex is another story... However, unless I am mistaken, the Dwarf "saves vs. spells" doesn't count for reflex saves (i.e. from a Fireball).

You are mistaken. The only spell it doesn't work against is the trip portion of comet fall, but it works fine vs the damage portion.

I would say halfling, if you go for monk splash. Otherwise dwarf or WF.

Dwarf works just as well with their save vs spells, as well as getting more HP and SP at the cost of -3 AC. It works better for me because the halfling pack weight and ridiculously low str make staying centered a pain.

[Demoyn]

As for your dragonmarked halfling, but I guarantee my human 28pt healbot that started with 16wis and has the following feats: emp, max, ext, mt, spell pen, gr spell pen, tougnness will outperform that dragonmarked halfling in terms of keeping the group alive.

The only way that's even remotely possible is if you're five times the player I am. Considering that being five times the player I am should be against the law, I'm going to have to say you're just wrong. The halfling character is better than the human character for healbotting, period. If used by players of equal skill level, the halfling wins every time.

[Demoyn]

I'm not positive but I don't think dragon marks are an option for monk feats. You should check out the character planner. I also don't think mental toughness is a choice.

Dragonmarks and mental toughness aren't monk options. The best you could do is take one monk level and get toughness with the monk bonus, but then you wouldn't get evasion.

[Joseph]

The reason I chose Halfling has to do with playing Human (Head Start), Elf - Second Cleric, Drow (third), Dwarf (fourth, fifth, and sixth - different builds and splashes).

I never played with Halfling, so I am giving it a roll - and so far I like it. Pert of my thinking behind taking the Dragon Marks was - What does a Cleric do in a group?

My Dwarf Cleric is a solo machine, almost never dies, and is a solid pure class healer - but can put out some very solid damage (on par with a sword and board fighter or pally that is not properly played). Add in the BB and commands, and he is rock solid. That was, until he hit the high end content. Now it is just too mana intensive to keep him able to hit things, buffed up, and keeping the party rolling. I find myself dropping BB, healing, and helping take down Arcane aggro as I can. So I thought, ok, what feats do I really use (my opinions only - not knocking your build K, - sounds very similar to my old human cleric - and I am sure in terms of all around utility is more capable than my Halfer)...

1 - Empower Healing (this is a must have)
2 - Extend and Maximize (these are nice to have)
3 - Mental Toughness and Improved Mental Toughness (these are nice to have)
4 - Spell Pen 1 and 2 (luxury - nice, aye, but situational - melee should be tripping / sundering - outside of that it is elemental and some trash mobs that rarely save)
5 - Toughness (luxury - nice to have, especially on my Dwarf - but still a luxury)

For me, the only must have is Empower. Technically everything else is a luxury. That means, as a human I have 6 more 'luxury' feats, and as any other race, 5 more. For me, and my play style on this character, using 3 of my remaining 5 luxury feats to get a significant boost in healing, at almost no cost to my melee ability (I am only missing toughness), and at a limited cost to my damage casting ability (agreed, I do lose out on some ability, but Maximize and Extend as my other two feats help to fix that), makes sense. I had not even considered the monk splash (I did not take it) - actually didn't even consider it.

This build only really sacrifices some casting ability (lower spell pen), and some HP loss. Shuffle the feats a little and it is less noticeable.

My Dwarf, admittedly, can not heal as much, because he has none of the Divine Healing lines (no Charisma), and less mana to use for healing - but his damage and CC spells land for more and more often - but not THAT much more often. At low levels he was much better in melee - at high levels it just doesn't seem to matter that much.

So, that is why I built this halfer. In a full party, he can keep a lot of people standing. He is also fun to play Of course, so is my Dwarf!

[kinar]

I'm not saying that the cleric I mentioned is a great build. In fact, it sucks pretty hard. But it has 1700+ sp, the right feats, and a pretty decent player behind it (I'm not generally someone to tout my own accomplishments, but I'm willing to set the bar at "pretty decent"). The point is that even a subpar human build is better than the best dragonmarked build.

As far as empower heal, it is only "required" if you use dragonmarks or if you don't have maximize (which imo is worse than using dragonmarks). Otherwise it is a waste of mana.

This is because the Heal spell does not need ANY metas applied to it and should be the primary spell used for healing by clerics. Very few situations require a mass cure to be used (even part 4 of the shroud, only some groups need mass healed, most of the time only 2-3 people are taking enough damage to justify not using heal). And never should anything more than mass cure mod be used (unless you have superior dev 7+).

[Leyoni]

What does a Cleric do in a group?

This is the most important question and, IMO, has two answers.

During early levels a cleric is primarily expected to keep the other characters healthy. I ran Delera's the other day with one of my mid-level characters that I've been working on. The cleric just kept tossing the cures and it was all good.

During later levels a cleric is expected to mix healing with buffs and offensive spells. I ran some Vale slayers the other day with one of my capped characters and the buffs and combat spells made things too easy.

The odd character type is the battle cleric who thinks their cleric skills are for them and them alone. IMO this is the character that gives clerics a bad name. They seem self focused rather than group focused. Then again, selfish players -- regardless of character class -- aren't much use to a group.

[Inspire]

Warforged.

[Chaos000]

The odd character type is the battle cleric who thinks their cleric skills are for them and them alone. IMO this is the character that gives clerics a bad name. They seem self focused rather than group focused. Then again, selfish players -- regardless of character class -- aren't much use to a group.

or in other words a cleric who plays in the manner of an aoe damage dealing sorcerer that straight up refuses to use reconstruct scrolls and repair serious wands on the warforged in the party even if someone else offered to buy them.

Or a damage dealing melee who refuses to stock up on healing potions to keep themselves up for the amount of damage they are taking so that other people won't have to. Or a character that doesn't have a single resistance 30 item asking for a resistance from elements. Or a character that scoff at immunity items that asks for remove poison/curse/blindness/disease instead of carrying clickies or potions. Or a traps character that keeps buggin for a greater heroism because he won't drop the cash for scrolls and blows every box he comes across without it cast on him. Or any cleric/paladin/bard/ranger/umd rogue that doesn't wand whip between fights.

Not everyone's altruistic, just because a cleric has the potential to be the best at it doesn't mean it should be expected of him/her. BUT the *only* excuse for a person playing a cleric to be selfish is if there's others in the party being just as if not more selfish and expecting the cleric to not do the same. (see above for examples)

[moops]

If you are going to be an offensive caster, Human hands down--unless you are just using Blade Barriers. But if you want your Destruction/Slay Livings/G commands and others to land in the top end content you will need spell focuses, spell pen feats, and Heighten.

[BlackSteel]

Warforged.

/signed

[Aranticus]

healbot? -> human (extra feat > extra sp from dwarf > dragonmarks from halfling)
"battlecleric"? -> dwarf (extra hp and sp via enhancements since yer probably not gonna use yer feats on sp enhancements)
14clr/2mnk? -> halfling (extra dex and reflex enhancements makes for great evasion)
14clr/2rog? -> human (extra skill needed for rogue skills)

I still haven't figured out why people like wf clerics. perhaps that will be my next one just to figure it out. blanket imunities are nice but there are spell/item equivilents for all of them.

offensive cleric -> human > dwarf > halfling

coz wf clerics are up there with dwarves as battle clerics. dwarves use ac, wf has DR to mitigate damage. as for offensive prowress, bladesworn transformation FTW

[Aranticus]

I'm not saying that the cleric I mentioned is a great build. In fact, it sucks pretty hard. But it has 1700+ sp, the right feats, and a pretty decent player behind it (I'm not generally someone to tout my own accomplishments, but I'm willing to set the bar at "pretty decent"). The point is that even a subpar human build is better than the best dragonmarked build.

then why mention at all? actually it depends. the human will be better at MASS healing but the halfing rocks when it comes to FOCUSED, RAPID healing

As far as empower heal, it is only "required" if you use dragonmarks or if you don't have maximize (which imo is worse than using dragonmarks). Otherwise it is a waste of mana.

you dun have a clue do you?

This is because the Heal spell does not need ANY metas applied to it and should be the primary spell used for healing by clerics. Very few situations require a mass cure to be used (even part 4 of the shroud, only some groups need mass healed, most of the time only 2-3 people are taking enough damage to justify not using heal). And never should anything more than mass cure mod be used (unless you have superior dev 7+).

end part vod is another example. the problem with heal is its too focused and it relies too much on player ability to maintain efficiency. take a cleric with a 266 hp heal and a melee with 400 hp. player takes a fireball = 200 hp left. a heal means you lose 66 hp but if you do not heal. also a non evasion group will need mass heals more than one with many evasion players. but more importantly, the cool down will not kill any player

[Aranticus]

This is the most important question and, IMO, has two answers.

During early levels a cleric is primarily expected to keep the other characters healthy. I ran Delera's the other day with one of my mid-level characters that I've been working on. The cleric just kept tossing the cures and it was all good.

During later levels a cleric is expected to mix healing with buffs and offensive spells. I ran some Vale slayers the other day with one of my capped characters and the buffs and combat spells made things too easy.

The odd character type is the battle cleric who thinks their cleric skills are for them and them alone. IMO this is the character that gives clerics a bad name. They seem self focused rather than group focused. Then again, selfish players -- regardless of character class -- aren't much use to a group.

i disagree. for a typical cleric (non battle)

L1-6 simple crowd control, swing a weapon, healing. primary reason being the mobs dies relatively quick and wont do much damage (of coz does not apply to elite quests)

L7-10 crowd control, offensive casting, healing. as mobs have higher ac, they get harder to melee. with intro of spells like chaos hammer, holy smite, offensive spells can debuff mobs to help. of coz the standard greater command rocks

L11+ offensive casting, crowd control, healing. blade barrier, destruction are the staple of many clerics. the most efficient way of keeping people alive is to keep mobs dead

[Zenako]

Just a little math cleanup on the Divine Healing.

DH1 does a d3 every 2 seconds for 30 seconds. You get 15 ticks of healing from the effect. A d3 averages 2 (1+2+3=6 /3 = 2), so you get 30 points of healing, not 22.

DH2 gets you 60 and DH3 will get you 90 a pop (DH2 = 2d3 per tick, while DH3 is 3de3 per tick.)

Since all clerics get Turn Undead anyway, and it only takes a few AP to get the DH or DV lines, it makes sense for most clerics to take them.

[Leyoni]

This is the most important question and, IMO, has two answers.

During early levels a cleric is primarily expected to keep the other characters healthy. I ran Delera's the other day with one of my mid-level characters that I've been working on. The cleric just kept tossing the cures and it was all good.

During later levels a cleric is expected to mix healing with buffs and offensive spells. I ran some Vale slayers the other day with one of my capped characters and the buffs and combat spells made things too easy.

The odd character type is the battle cleric who thinks their cleric skills are for them and them alone. IMO this is the character that gives clerics a bad name. They seem self focused rather than group focused. Then again, selfish players -- regardless of character class -- aren't much use to a group.

i disagree. for a typical cleric (non battle)

L1-6 simple crowd control, swing a weapon, healing. primary reason being the mobs dies relatively quick and wont do much damage (of coz does not apply to elite quests)

L7-10 crowd control, offensive casting, healing. as mobs have higher ac, they get harder to melee. with intro of spells like chaos hammer, holy smite, offensive spells can debuff mobs to help. of coz the standard greater command rocks

L11+ offensive casting, crowd control, healing. blade barrier, destruction are the staple of many clerics. the most efficient way of keeping people alive is to keep mobs dead

I don't think we're too far off here. You're a bit more refined but getting at essentially the same things.

I didn't go into those details because I don't think some of them are true for a typical group. OTOH, past discussions show that what I consider to be typical is substantially different from what you think is typical.

I would say that non-battle clerics entering into melee is atypical for groups I run with regardless of level but even more so at L1-6. Without the ability to raise the cleric (and most characters relying on the cleric for in-fight healing) the groups I've been in would generally prefer to see the cleric in a buff and heal role and meleeing only as a last resort.

I also did not mention crowd control as that is more often the role of the arcane casters in the group. However, when the arcane caster is damage focused it is nice if the cleric can carry some crowd control spells. What becomes an issue is when the cleric blows thru mana trying (but failing) to land crowd control leaving little for healing. It is particularly troublesome when there are few shrines for mana replenishment.

My experience is that most characters are so twinked that crowd control is hardly an issue for the L1-9 quests -- the melees simply blow thru mobs. It becomes a matter of mana efficiency. If spells land and the group works well together then it is more mana efficient to toss crowd control than it is to heal. If the spells do not land reliably then it is more mana efficient to heal and let the melees have their moments of glory.

At L10+ (especially 11+ as you note) I'd say we're pretty much in agreement although the balance between buffs and crowd control still is important to recognize. (The question of whether crowd control is being provided by an arcane caster is still important.)

[Leyoni]

Just a little math cleanup on the Divine Healing.

DH1 does a d3 every 2 seconds for 30 seconds. You get 15 ticks of healing from the effect. A d3 averages 2 (1+2+3=6 /3 = 2), so you get 30 points of healing, not 22.

DH2 gets you 60 and DH3 will get you 90 a pop (DH2 = 2d3 per tick, while DH3 is 3de3 per tick.)

Since all clerics get Turn Undead anyway, and it only takes a few AP to get the DH or DV lines, it makes sense for most clerics to take them.

I had to work thru the math when I saw your d3 averages 2 math. I've always just taken lowest value plus highest value divided by two (1+3/2=2). Funny how different people do the math in different ways to get to the same values.

Of course, that is just a sidetrack. Your point, if I understand it, is that DH is a worthwhile investment as DH3 will regen 90 hp (on average) for the loss of 1 turn undead (which many consider to be entirely worthless in actually turning undead and which absolutely has no value when there are no undead) which the cleric is going to have in some number just by virtue of their class.

IMO that is a fairly good observation.

[Leyoni]

The odd character type is the battle cleric who thinks their cleric skills are for them and them alone. IMO this is the character that gives clerics a bad name. They seem self focused rather than group focused. Then again, selfish players -- regardless of character class -- aren't much use to a group.

or in other words a cleric who plays in the manner of an aoe damage dealing sorcerer that straight up refuses to use reconstruct scrolls and repair serious wands on the warforged in the party even if someone else offered to buy them.

Or a damage dealing melee who refuses to stock up on healing potions to keep themselves up for the amount of damage they are taking so that other people won't have to. Or a character that doesn't have a single resistance 30 item asking for a resistance from elements. Or a character that scoff at immunity items that asks for remove poison/curse/blindness/disease instead of carrying clickies or potions. Or a traps character that keeps buggin for a greater heroism because he won't drop the cash for scrolls and blows every box he comes across without it cast on him. Or any cleric/paladin/bard/ranger/umd rogue that doesn't wand whip between fights.

Not everyone's altruistic, just because a cleric has the potential to be the best at it doesn't mean it should be expected of him/her. BUT the *only* excuse for a person playing a cleric to be selfish is if there's others in the party being just as if not more selfish and expecting the cleric to not do the same. (see above for examples)

LOL!

I rewrote my comments (which you quote) several times as I was fairly sure they would attract some comment. I'd say that most of your observations are on target. I'll have to say that the melee character point is a bit off however. Most melees take damage faster than they can self heal and that is why most groups look for healing oriented clerics. I'd consider melees to be less selfish if they would carry self healing for between fight healing and be content as a cleric to work at keeping them up during fights.

What annoys me most is when I'm blowing thru mana and wands and then when the fight is over the melee with 1/10th of a health bar goes charging off to the next encounter. Normally I just let them die.... Unfortunately, sometimes they run back to the group dragging the whole mob and self-preservation dictates that I spend at least some of the healing on them. When that happens I usually try to make sure to spend only just enough until the mob is managable by the rest of the group. Then I let them die.