Barbarians place in mod 9??

[BlackSteel]

Refer to this chart for the basis of my arguement.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174906

So Crit rage is going away. I'm actually cool with that, as it didnt fit the barbarian very well anyway. But the reason it was put into the game to start with was to make the barb deliver more damage; as rage by itself is rather unimpressive. Especially when compared agaisnt favored enemy damage or weapon spec's. 10 str vs 2 str & 12 damage on both hands vs 3 str and 6 damage both hands?? (and thats current game) One of those is terribley lacking. So crit rage made up for the deficit with a straight damage boost. But we the players found it more useful to use with on crit effects rather than simply with damage. And somehow thats more broken than 10% speed, so crit rage is out, and we get the more damaging frenzy bezerker.

Yes frenzy gives more damage than crit rage, but theres 2 points I want make here. First, the other two barb prc's will have to compete with frenzy in addition to the old crit rage, as FB also incorporates the crit multiplier into itself. And if the other prc's can compete with frenzy, then why bother with the self damage? The class needs something thats not the prc to compensate for the loss of crit rage. Both to help the appeal of future prc's and to help bring the barbarian farther up the chart linked. Frankly even if barbarians kept crit rage and got to take frenzy as well, then they still wouldnt approach the top of the list which is sad considering the self damage aspect.

Even sadder given that we dont keep crit rage, and a self damaging, hopeless AC, DPS focused character falls that average on the DPS chart. A mod 9 barbarian is going to bring nothing special to the table other than a pain on the healers. Barbarian will have consistent damage, but not fantastic damage for being a one trick pony.

Barbarian damage should be along the lines of pally twf agaisnt evil outsiders, agaisnt everything. Considering the penalties and what a character gives up to rage and to frenzy.

Fixes:

Replace crit rage with crit mult, outside of Frenzy. Then put in improved power attack into Frenzy B as it is listed in the PHB. Or just have the improved power attack seperate. Having Power attack give a double bonus for barbs would bring them up (along with frenzy damage) up into KoTC range.

Fixing damage boost to be something desirable and on par to haste boost would put the barbarian right up there to the top of the list, in addition to power attack and frenzy.

wife aggro so cut it short

[Samadhi]

Some decent ideas, and definitely a significant issue.

[branmakmuffin]

Refer to this chart for the basis of my arguement.

Your chart's kinda thin.

If Barbarians become less desirable to play due to changes, so what? But more likely none of the doom and gloom you predict will actually happen.

[honkuimushi]

I think one of the problems is that crit range was so cheap. You could get the first rank with 11 levels of Barbarian and 2 APs and the second for 14 levels and 4 more APs.

Tempest on the other hand only requires 6 levels, but also 3 feats. And none of those feats would be a top five feat for most Rangers. For the Fighter, it takes 20 levels and the Best Chalice Paladins require 18 levels.

The other factor I believe was an aestheic issue about Barabarians running around with dual rapiers.

Now, I do think that Frenzied Berzerkers are missing something. In PnP, they get improvements to their Power Attack. So by sacrificing 1 point of BAB they get 2 points of damage with one handed weapons and 3 with two handers. At level 10, that increases to 3 and 4 respectively. I would like to see them get at least the first increase at teir II or so.

The next problem is what to do about the other PrEs. There really aren't a lot of Barbarian PrCs, but I'm curious to see what they do with the Occult Slayer and Ravager.

[BlackSteel]

I think one of the problems is that crit range was so cheap. You could get the first rank with 11 levels of Barbarian and 2 APs and the second for 14 levels and 4 more APs.
The other factor I believe was an aestheic issue about Barabarians running around with dual rapiers.
Now, I do think that Frenzied Berzerkers are missing something. In PnP, they get improvements to their Power Attack. So by sacrificing 1 point of BAB they get 2 points of damage with one handed weapons and 3 with two handers. At level 10, that increases to 3 and 4 respectively. I would like to see them get at least the first increase at teir II or so.
The next problem is what to do about the other PrEs. There really aren't a lot of Barbarian PrCs, but I'm curious to see what they do with the Occult Slayer and Ravager.

agreed on the crit rage, and the rapiers. replacing crit with multi, outside of the Frenzy PrC would allow them to do more things with the other two prc's, so that they compete individually rather than with Frenzy which incorporates the crit rage replacement into itself. It would be easier to balance and develop desirable PrC's without competing with the ghost of crit rage.

[BlackSteel]

haha so somehow the link went missing, edited original post to include the linkyses

[BlackSteel]

class damage perks in mod 9

+20 STR = +10 damage main +5 offhand
-3 to hit + 3 damage
6d6 Vicious damage
+2 crit multiplier

vs

+2 str
+16 damage on both hands
10% alatricity
STWF (an extra attack over everyone else)

vs
+11 damage both hands
+11 STR (+5 main hand / +2/3 off hand)
+1 crit range
10% alatricity
30% boost

vs
3d6 capstone
Divine Might +8 dam both hands
Divine Favor
Zeal 10%
DS and ES
+4 to hit and 4d6 vs evil outsiders


one of those is a bit behind the others, even on just plain base damage, let alone all the other perks. STWF > 6d6 visc ; 10% ala. > 6d6 visc. And the class that will be doing the least is also the one that is going to suffer - 6 ac from rage and self damage from frenzy

and this doesnt approach all the multiclasses, since most of the abilities that make the other 3 classes great are relatively front loaded on the class progressions. if barbs kept crit rage (which I'm against) they'd still be too far down that list to be acceptable given the drawbacks.

please re-examine damage boost and consider adding in the improvements to power attack, thats what really go me excited about frenzy B when I heard it was coming in the game; was the prospect of superior power attack. The viscous damage was an interesting way to implement the self damage aspect of the prc, and a reasonable one as well.

[Paladin20]

The other factor I believe was an aestheic issue about Barabarians running around with dual rapiers.

I think mine looks rather sexy with 2 rapiers or picks =D.

[Baranor]

Tempest on the other hand only requires 6 levels, but also 3 feats. And none of those feats would be a top five feat for most Rangers.

considering all the tempest rangers running around this doesn't seem to be a big deal
also that they get all the twf feats for free which barbs have to spend feats for it doesn't seem to hurt much (or at all) it's not like they are useless. What's wrong with better AC and no penalty for moving while attacking

The other factor I believe was an aestheic issue about Barabarians running around with dual rapiers.

personally I'm sick of this arguement
You can have my elven barbs rapiers(favored weapon of elves) when you pry them from my cold dead hands

[BlackSteel]

Your chart's kinda thin.

If Barbarians become less desirable to play due to changes, so what? But more likely none of the doom and gloom you predict will actually happen.

doom and gloom? I dont remember bringing up doom or gloom, and especially not doom AND gloom

all I was pointing out was that theres little reason to play a barb come next mod if other classes do the same damage or more on a majority of the mobs and dont kill themselves in the process.

[Strakeln]

The barbarian's place in mod 9 will be "within 20 feet of the cleric".