Barbarians place in mod 9??

[Thanimal]

I think it destroys the variety a bit. Just because something makes thematic sense doesn't mean all other possibilities should be absurdly weak in comparison. Granted, TWF is the highest single target DPS atm, but the dex needed for it makes it prohibitive in other ways - so at least it is a trade off. If the goal is to catch up THF - then my rec would be to make the THF feats more useful - not something barbarian only.

Good call! I agree.

[gfunk]

One of the questions with FBIII crit multiplier is how/if that will be applied to weapon effects. Right now, the highest multiplier in the game is the x4 multiplier we get for light and heavy picks, which gives you 3d10 elemental or 5d6 good burst damage.

Will there more dice for x5 and x6 crit multipliers? right now, I am assuming that there will not be because the descriptions on burst weapons indicates "for weapons with.." implying the burst damage is tied to the weapon and not the wielder. That said, the descriptions came out before crit multiplier enhancements were in existance. I haven't seen clarification regarding this, however it would add some nice damage to the barbarian class if there was more burst damage for the higher multipliers.

Also, the Barbarian has the highest non-situational "sustainable" dps (i.e. it is not dependant on things like short term action boosts or favored enemies.. assuming healing is ongoing of course).

Most importantly, it seems like the devs are trying to push the barbarian towards two handed fighting. As we do not know what the process rate of effects on glancing blows will be, we cannot estimate how effective THF will be. I suspect a supreme cleaving great axe wielding barbarian will be pretty devastating vs trash mobs. I wouldnt be that all surprised to see one able to run into the shroud, intimidate 10 or so trogs and kill them all with two swings... would be sort of fun.

[Thanimal]

One way they could do this is by readdressing many of the current damage adds and instead of making them "by attack", make them:

As is for main-hand attacks,
x50% for off-hand attacks, and
x200% for two-handed attacks.

So, +4 damage from Bard songs would add +4/+2 to a TWF and +8 to a THF.

Endorsed By Thanimal.

In fact, I think this is "required" for THF to be comparable with TWF over a range of levels. Otherwise, the relative value of boosts is always far greater to TWF, so as boosts get better TWF gets relatively better. If you imagine this on a graph of dps vs level, the two wouldn't have the same slope, making it impossible for them to remain comparable regardless of where they start. The best case in that scenario would be to make them comparable in the end-game, which has the consequence of making TWF completely sucky all along the way.

[Gunga]

Well back when this was a hot button issue to fix crit rage(barbs vs. every bodyelse lol), me and my bro cache suggested that crit rage simply be changed to a seeker type of enchantment (like bloodstone and stacking) +4 for first one +6 for second +10 at eighteenth level or something. That way it is straight damage on crit but has now real effect on weapon crit effects. The numbers were a quick example, but this type of enchantment (non prc) on top of frenzy or whatever could help balance with out being overpowered.

(edit) After reading one post up this effect could be doubled for thf

Blah, blah, blah.

The real question is: How's the fun spot?

Welcome back, mother****er. Missed you.

[Nakia]

Blah, blah, blah.

The real question is: How's the fun spot?

Welcome back, mother****er. Missed you.

welcome back!

[Mike_Fun_Spot]

Blah, blah, blah.

The real question is: How's the fun spot?

Welcome back, mother****er. Missed you.

lol thnx. As far as the fun spot, water + bread + big mama's 2 reminds me of when mod 5 came out ahahahhaha

[Mike_Fun_Spot]

welcome back!

thanks sucka!

[BlackSteel]

I hope you're wrong...I just got my newest barbarian to lvl 7 the other night and he's predominatly a thwf, using Mauls and Great Axes and he does some serious damage. I'd hate for that to be nerfed...

Barbarians, IMO, should be the heaviest hitters in the game. It just doesn't feel right if they aren't...

eh I wouldnt worry about that, atleast not too much. THF does benefit more from two things, STR and power attack. Which is pretty much the only thing that the barbarian has going for it. A THF barb is actually very close to the TWF version. I'm trying to stay away from posting calc's for a moving WF THF in the above link for TWF DPS. As current content puts the frenzied WF bezerker into the 'green' area akin to the 'exploiter'. Downside is that any non WF barbarian that uses two handers takes a large hit in this department.

[Paladin20]

The other factor I believe was an aestheic issue about Barabarians running around with dual rapiers.

I think mine looks rather sexy with 2 rapiers or picks =D.

[Paladin20]

vs

+2 str
+16 damage on both hands
10% alatricity
STWF (an extra attack over everyone else)

vs
+11 damage both hands
+11 STR (+5 main hand / +2/3 off hand)
+1 crit range
10% alatricity
30% boost

vs
3d6 capstone
Divine Might +8 dam both hands
Divine Favor
Zeal 10%
DS and ES
+4 to hit and 4d6 vs evil outsiders

I think the problem with Rangers is not with the class and the perks themselves. It's with the mobs in the game. All they would ever have to do is add MORE VARIETY of bosses/relevant mobs to the game where the FE wouldn't ALWAYS apply. That would also take away the huge luster and appeal to the KotC if everything weren't some sort of Evil Outsider. As for the Fighter, well, they are the weapon masters, I see no problem adding this since they've been lacking and behind for a few Mods. Barbs should be somewhat ahead of everything else while raged, however, I'll def agree with that. The fix/balancing is something they've never gotten right... it's too far one way or another, I wouldn't expect it to be different this time lol. It's either an unprecedented godly boost <Enter Critical Rage>, or a total nerfage avenue <bye Critical Rage, bye WoPs> lol. It's like, come on, find something in between!

[BlackSteel]

Also, the Barbarian has the highest non-situational "sustainable" dps (i.e. it is not dependant on things like short term action boosts or favored enemies.. assuming healing is ongoing of course).
.

yes, but just b/c its situational doesnt mean its unreliable. Favored enemies can be tailored for end game bosses, and no one in the room really cares about damage charts for trash mobs. Haste boosts are user activated, and 5-8 boosts will see anyone thru the fights where needed. Unless the mod 9 brings an entirely new approach to questing, boost damage is reliable, its not 100% of the time, but when it counts it can be up more than half. Same thing with smites, as noted in your dps calc's. Assuming 1 a round is more than reasonable; and can be done for a good while.

Favored enemy, and short term boosts are more of a delicacy on multiclass builds, when you only have 2 to work, enemy selection could be harder, but evil outsider seems to have it covered for the time being. A multiclass pally might have a harder time staying stocked on all his buffs, as a multibarb would have a harder time staying permaraged. But in any scenario, a wise player would have their optionals available for the big fight. As who cares if you kill the trash mobs 30% faster than optimal? From 6 seconds to 4 seconds. Big whoopie.



also I dont see a str build tempest 3 ranger listed yet; a WF 18 ranger/2 fighter or 20 ranger I would think, would outclass the barb for consistent damage. Yes I would consider 4 favored enemies non situational damage. But i'm assuming the lack of tempest 3 is b/c we're not certain how it'll be implemented exactly yet. Just like Bab 20; anything could be plausible.

[BlackSteel]

The fix/balancing is something they've never gotten right... it's too far one way or another, I wouldn't expect it to be different this time lol. It's either an unprecedented godly boost <Enter Critical Rage>, or a total nerfage avenue <bye Critical Rage, bye WoPs> lol. It's like, come on, find something in between!

Thing is, I completely agree with the removal of crit rage. I just dont want to see its replacement tied to frenzy. Either the raging barb is going to be doing just ok damage, or a raging frenzy SELF DAMAGING barb is going to be good consistent damage. But will be unable to achieve real nastiness like the other classes.

[QuantumFX]

One of the questions with FBIII crit multiplier is how/if that will be applied to weapon effects. Right now, the highest multiplier in the game is the x4 multiplier we get for light and heavy picks, which gives you 3d10 elemental or 5d6 good burst damage.

The x5 and x6 crit multipler effects are in DDO now. They were needed for Exalted Smite.

[Borror0]

Will there more dice for x5 and x6 crit multipliers?

There are already. They've been added for Exalted Smite in M7.0.

It's certainly possible gfunk is doing something wrong, but for the moment I think his numbers have to be considered the best guess.

My calculations point at the same results than his. Non-frenzied damage is seriously underwhelming.

If he is doing it wrong, then my spreadsheet is wrong as well and that is rather unlikely for how much I have tested it.

Keep in mind, though, that we are talking about unfrenzied damage. If you take a look at gfunk's list, you'll notice that once you start adding double frenzy the damage drastically goes up. Frenzied Berserker are the highest non-situational damage in the game if they don't mind 'killing themselves'. So, if there is any way for them to mitigate the incoming damage, there is hope.

Otherwise, it is stupid for a class whose sole purpose and concept is damage to not have DPS comparable to a paladin...

[Baranor]

Tempest on the other hand only requires 6 levels, but also 3 feats. And none of those feats would be a top five feat for most Rangers.

considering all the tempest rangers running around this doesn't seem to be a big deal
also that they get all the twf feats for free which barbs have to spend feats for it doesn't seem to hurt much (or at all) it's not like they are useless. What's wrong with better AC and no penalty for moving while attacking

The other factor I believe was an aestheic issue about Barabarians running around with dual rapiers.

personally I'm sick of this arguement
You can have my elven barbs rapiers(favored weapon of elves) when you pry them from my cold dead hands

[BlackSteel]

Keep in mind, though, that we are talking about unfrenzied damage. If you take a look at gfunk's list, you'll notice that once you start adding double frenzy the damage drastically goes up. Frenzied Berserker are the highest non-situational damage in the game if they don't mind 'killing themselves'. So, if there is any way for them to mitigate the incoming damage, there is hope.

Otherwise, it is stupid for a class whose sole purpose and concept is damage to not have DPS comparable to a paladin...

Yes, they're at the top of the nonsituational damage, but alot of that situational damage that falls above the FB, is quite common. How often is a palidan going to be using Zeal? how often will a rogue be Sneak Attacking? Or a ranger fighting a FE? Or how often can a fighter use his haste boost during a boss fight? For the most part, a modest answer is going to be more than half the time. So for half the time, the barbarian barely manages to stay at the top WHEN the other classes are not operating at full capacity. Whoopie do.

[Borror0]

Yes, they're at the top of the nonsituational damage, but alot of that situational damage that falls above the FB, is quite common. How often is a palidan going to be using Zeal? how often will a rogue be Sneak Attacking? Or a ranger fighting a FE? Or how often can a fighter use his haste boost during a boss fight?

Let's look at that:

• Rogues are supposed to out-DPs a barbarian. Always did; always will.
• Paladins are assumed to be able to keep Zeal up all the time but FB will still out-DPS them.
• Assuming DPS will matter one again in M9 vs trash mobs, this is a non-issue.

BlackSteel, you've missed my point.

If a barbarian is willing to 'kill himself' he will be out-DPSing nearly everyone's sustainable DPS (but a pure/tempest paladin vs Evil Outsiders while he gets his acid damage - which is very unlikely- and rogues). The problem is, how often will a FB be willing to 'kill himself'?

If there is anything added to allow them to "handle the frenzy", then may be find.

[BlackSteel]

If a barbarian is willing to 'kill himself' he will be out-DPSing nearly everyone's sustainable DPS (but a pure/tempest paladin vs Evil Outsiders while he gets his acid damage - which is very unlikely- and rogues). The problem is, how often will a FB be willing to 'kill himself'?

If there is anything added to allow them to "handle the frenzy", then may be find.

Did I miss something? because the FB is getting acid damage on that list as well. So thats a moot point, and w/o incorporating any type of smiting. The tempest ranger is not including tempest 3 (add another 10% yay) Its not how often is a FB willing to kill himself, its that when it counts, most of the other classes will out do him.

[Borror0]

Its not how often is a FB willing to kill himself, its that when it counts, most of the other classes will out do him.

Um, no. You may need to do the calculations before saying this. That's just not true.

[BlackSteel]

click on the linky

KotC is above the FB before using any form of smites vs evil outsiders

tempest is barely below FB before having tempest 3

I wont pick on the backstabbers, simply b/c any type of fort hurts their damage severely, but on critters with no fort, between radiance or 12 person raid groups, you can assume a good deal of sneak damage

ANYTHING thats a decent build with haste boost lays shame to a barbarian

yes I've ran my own numbers for barbarian, and I trust gfunk's totals for those in his chart. FB does respectable sustainable damage, but its not enough to be justifiable considering the drawbacks. And who cares if thats sustainable damage agaisnt anything, when the game only presents you with a small subset of creatures that matter, and in small enough situations to matter.

If there was no shrine between parts 4 & 5 shroud then I wouldnt value short term boosts so much. Or if you paired a pit fiend with the mother hound, back to back, so that a diversity of bosses was important. But right now, theres nowhere that 2 favored enemies and 5-8 boosts cant take you thru acting as superman. Trash mobs or even your typical red names arent going to care whether you're doing 1300 or 1700 damage a round. They die too fast already. But in the same train of thought, a barb is not, or should not be willing to double frenzy in the same situation. But the barb's difference between buffed and not tad different. From pathetic to good. compared to good to great.