The Sorcerer's Handbook: A Guide to Building and Playing Sorcerers

[Aspenor]

I'm going to re-iterate a point made earlier in the thread, so people that don't read the whole thread can wrap their minds around a simple fact.

This thread is not meant for seasoned vets who understand the ins and outs of quests and can acquire loot easily. This thread is meant for people that are LEARNING the class.

I could roll up a dwarf sorcerer with 10 con and 16 INT that performs better than most casters in a quest, because I know how to play casters.

[Junts]

Must be different experiences then.
I tend to list bad casters. I admit i have a low "list-treshold".
I will list caster who run out of SP, who nuke for no reason, who have webs that can't hold a devil, who can't break a Trog SR, who can't debuff an elite pit fiend, etc...

The vast majority are WFs. I think the +1 DC and the extra APs for more Spell Pen is important. Maybe WF sorc are just overconfidant and dont learn to be careful.

To me, making a WF sorc is like making a Halfling Barbarian. Doable, viable, and fun, yes. But definitly not the prior choice.

As for this beeing a guide... That -2 CHA is definitly HUGE at low levels. A lot more then at 16. Lower Dc and lower HP and spell failure? Yuk Yuk Yuk.

thats funny, the casters I hate are the ones who actually need other people to babysit them and/or die instnatly at the end of vod or when hit by a dbf in the shroud

theres no reason to play anything with less than 350 hp on ddo; its just that many more hits you can take before you have to heal yourself.

[Aspenor]

being unable to land a web, or not passing SR checks is no fault of the chosen race. it's the fault of an idiot player.

big, big difference.

[Venar]

Telling me that the intend of this thread is way over my head is a ridiculous answer to my point. Who cares about the intend. You say Warforged are superior to Drow, i say they are not.

How is using a heal scroll is worst then self heal? A sorc with UMD does not fail wands, or scrolls later on. So, wand of healing or repair, apple or oranges.
Unless you speak of using a repair SPELL, meaning using your SP and a spell slot, which is my point to liking drow better.

Spell failure... no i am not joking. Yes a few AP takes care of it. Still need to spend them. It's not free.

Look, we disagree, that is all. The rest of the guide is nice. But Warforged just is not a primary choice for a sorc. Wizard, sure. But Sorc? It's an odd choice, definitly not better then drow.
And if the guide is for new players, i would expect, from experience alone, most people to know, that a newbie on a warforged is a pain.

Like many others in here, i said i like drow better, and i said why. Now i will leave it alone as to not ruin your guide.

[Kalundan]

Telling me that the intend of this thread is way over my head is a ridiculous answer to my point. Who cares about the intend. You say Warforged are superior to Drow, i say they are not.

How is using a heal scroll is worst then self heal? A sorc with UMD does not fail wands, or scrolls later on. So, wand of healing or repair, apple or oranges.
Unless you speak of using a repair SPELL, meaning using your SP and a spell slot, which is my point to liking drow better.

Spell failure... no i am not joking. Yes a few AP takes care of it. Still need to spend them. It's not free.

Look, we disagree, that is all. The rest of the guide is nice. But Warforged just is not a primary choice for a sorc. Wizard, sure. But Sorc? It's an odd choice, definitly not better then drow.
And if the guide is for new players, i would expect, from experience alone, most people to know, that a newbie on a warforged is a pain.

Like many others in here, i said i like drow better, and i said why. Now i will leave it alone as to not ruin your guide.

I think the point is, it requires no hard to obtain or random chance UMD items in order to be a WF Sorc. You can use reconstruct scrolls and pick the repair spell of your choosing and be ready out of the box. I infact think WF Sorcerers are more newbie friendly because it offers more utility in the way of immunities and healing early on that doesn't require any gear.

I know people say just get 39-40 UMD and your set. Even with the cartouche/head +3 cha skills and max cha on say a human or drow and not burning feats your still going to need to fill in the gaps to heal like a WF, who can do it with no gear.

Another facet I like; is I can do my normal role while filling in another spot and that's healing. I do tons of arcane healing on my WF Sorcerer.

In terms of inscribed armor to remove spell failure, it's 1AP; it's not free, but I don't miss the 1AP which I'm sure I could spend in some trivial area that I would also not pay a lot of attention to in the grand scheme.

It's all preference I suppose, but of my Sorcerers I enjoy my WF sorcerer the most. I don't notice the 1 DC / 2 SR difference from my human. My webs land, my fingers kill and he gets the job done. He's stronger, more durable, flexible and more deadly.

[Aspenor]

Telling me that the intend of this thread is way over my head is a ridiculous answer to my point. Who cares about the intend. You say Warforged are superior to Drow, i say they are not.

How is using a heal scroll is worst then self heal? A sorc with UMD does not fail wands, or scrolls later on. So, wand of healing or repair, apple or oranges.
Unless you speak of using a repair SPELL, meaning using your SP and a spell slot, which is my point to liking drow better.

Spell failure... no i am not joking. Yes a few AP takes care of it. Still need to spend them. It's not free.

Look, we disagree, that is all. The rest of the guide is nice. But Warforged just is not a primary choice for a sorc. Wizard, sure. But Sorc? It's an odd choice, definitly not better then drow.
And if the guide is for new players, i would expect, from experience alone, most people to know, that a newbie on a warforged is a pain.

Like many others in here, i said i like drow better, and i said why. Now i will leave it alone as to not ruin your guide.

the difference in healing is approximately 3 seconds time, in which time you may die. it could be even more time if you're in a high lag environment like the Shroud or Abbot.

It takes ONE action point to eliminate arcane spell failure, available at level 1.

a newbie on ANY class is a pain, not just a warforged sorcerer. give him a drow and he will be just as bad, if not worse. additionally, the 2 DC gained can be completely invalidated by tactical spellcasting and use of no-save spells. i will say what i said before, you may like playing your drow and feel that your high DC is the most important thing, but it's not. It's called the primary stat boost trap.

You might want to educate yourself a little bit, or think more than one-dimensionally before saying warforged are inferior.

Or maybe just learn how to play.

[Venar]

Or maybe just learn how to play

Posting a lot does not make one a better player. I am probably one of the best sorc player around. But i think you were kidding, so it's fine.
Have a nice thread.

[Aspenor]

learn to play the game.

Posting a lot does not make one a better player. I am probably one of the best sorc player around. But i think you were kidding, so it's fine.
Have a nice thread.

Oh darn, he made fun of my post count. My feelings are so hurt. Seriously though, before you say something, be ready to have it said back. We've had good conversations before, but this just wasn't one of them.

[Venar]

Dude, i think +2 DC is huge, you dont, and your argument is "learn to play".
Back to you man, back to you.

Ok, leaving your thread alone, for real.

[Crarites]

The Sorcerer's Handbook: A Guide to Building and Playing Sorcerers
By: Aspenor the Beholder Slayer

Why do we play sorcerers? Because in DDO, sorcerers are the true arcane powerhouse. In pen and paper D&D, the wizard has the upper-hand on the sorcerer due to his vast array of choices and versatility. In DDO the versatility advantage is drastically reduced due to several reasons:
- There aren't really that many spells that are useful.
- The sorcerer is a charisma-based spellcasting class, and charisma powers the UMD skill.
- There aren't enough useful skills in DDO to give intelligence-based spellcasters a worthwhile benefit.
- The spell point system of DDO favors the sorcerer greatly.

What I find most interesting about this post is how depressingly easy it is to dismiss versatility when it comes to spell casters. I agree but it is still a very depressing commentary on the nature of wizards in todays end game.

[Aspenor]

Dude, i think +2 DC is huge, you dont, and your argument is "learn to play".
Back to you man, back to you.

Ok, leaving your thread alone, for real.

The actual argument was "there are extremely easy ways to get around having a lower DC, like utilizing spells with no save or via tactical spellcasting (i.e. selecting the right spell for the right target, instead of spamming instant death wastes of spell points on everything in sight)."

"learn to play" wasn't the argument, it was just me poking you with a sharp stick for saying it first.

[Aspenor]

What I find most interesting about this post is how depressingly easy it is to dismiss versatility when it comes to spell casters. I agree but it is still a very depressing commentary on the nature of wizards in todays end game.

Couldn't agree more.

In PnP, I prefer the wizard, for obvious reasons. I'm a big fan of the specialist, and all the roleplaying options such a mechanic brings with it.

Sorcerers, to me, are boring (in PnP).

[DragoonPenguin]

Level 1 - Empower Spell
Empower spell is much less costly than Maximize Spell, and at the lowest levels it functions just as well. The spell points you conserve could be the difference between winning and dieing. You take this feat at level 1 to dump out the damage when you really need to.

empower spell is actually more expensive than maximize when you look at the damage/sp cost. it says right in the descriptions that max gives you 100% more damage for 25 sp and empower gives 50% more damage for 15 sp. max gives you 2 empowers worth of dmg for 12.5 sp each, plus it does that in the casting of 1 spell.

i really suggest extend as the first feat, and take max, then empower as close to firewall/fireball level as possible

[Aspenor]

empower spell is actually more expensive than maximize when you look at the damage/sp cost. it says right in the descriptions that max gives you 100% more damage for 25 sp and empower gives 50% more damage for 15 sp. max gives you 2 empowers worth of dmg for 12.5 sp each, plus it does that in the casting of 1 spell.

i really suggest extend as the first feat, and take max, then empower as close to firewall/fireball level as possible

The reason for taking empower first is that at the lowest levels, you're more concerned with incidences of casting than spell point "efficiency," especially with such a small spell point pool.

[Osharan_Tregarth]

empower spell is actually more expensive than maximize when you look at the damage/sp cost. it says right in the descriptions that max gives you 100% more damage for 25 sp and empower gives 50% more damage for 15 sp. max gives you 2 empowers worth of dmg for 12.5 sp each, plus it does that in the casting of 1 spell.

i really suggest extend as the first feat, and take max, then empower as close to firewall/fireball level as possible

I'll use magic missile as the extreme example....

It costs 10 points to cast one... And maximize costs 25 points to double the damage.

So double damage for 35 pts, vs casting 3 of them.

It's not until you start casting level four or so spells that the spells stop costing more than casting them twice.(I think.. Could be level 3 spells)

[transtemporal]

Nice post asp. I agree muchly.

Skills
Absolutely agree on Concentration and UMD. Always take those first.
I advocate diplo for low hp builds and intim for high hp builds but not both because dumping aggro for high hp builds is counterproductive and attracting too much aggro on low hp builds is foolhardy.
I generally take jump next but thats just personal preference. I like being able to get to the pillar in Tor without any trouble.
I also take 1 point in tumble. Love tumble.

Feats
Exactly what my sorc currently has.
For the human bonus feat, I personally would take toughness, FoP or quicken. Quicken sounds silly on a sorc but its crazy fun because you've got the mana to burn and the situations in which you want to burn it, you also want to burn it as quickly as possible. I can't wait to test it out with max, emp, fire/ice lines, superior lore and vod set. Oh baby.
I will be interested to see whether the length of buffs at lvl 20 will be long enough that we might be able to drop extend, as Nick mentioned in his thread.

[Shade]

max endgame drow sorceror con:

14 + 3 tome + 6 item + 2 rage = 25
hp: 64 sorc levels + 20 dur + 10 argo + 18 toughness + 20 racial toughness + 45 shroud + 112 constitution (7*16) = 299 hp

human:

18 + 3 tome + 1 enhancement + 6 item + 2 rage = 30 +10 hp via enhancement drow cannot attain (racial toughness 3)
hp: 64 sorc levels + 20 dur + 10 argo + 18 toughness + 30 racial toughness + 45 shroud + 160 constitution = 357

Why not do a full comparison? Why compare only the aspect most skewed towards your favored race? Biased maybe?

57 hitpoint vs 7 action points + some amount of attributes point is what the comparison is. It's not 57 free hitpoints like you make it out.

You ask what you would take instead of the con and toughness enhancements.. Here are my answers - all of which absolutelly cannot be taken on your build suggested (max fire dmg, all spell pen, max cha, max con, max toughness - takes up nearly every AP on a capped sorc)
Improved Maximize II+
Improved Empower II+
Improved Heighten
Scroll Mastery.
This results in the drow being able to cast quite a few more nukes then the human could hope to. And heal better then the human could hope too - which is superior to hitpoints once you hit a certain treshhold.

Or hell why don't I be biased like you and just say that instead of those, that extra 7 AP (greater adap + racial tough 3) + several attribute you spent the drow didn't.. The Drow instead spent on say.. Charisma III? Suddely your even further behind on DC. Would real players do that? probably not. Tho they also probably wouldn't put every point into con either.

The point is human do not get a massive amount of free hitpoints. Every AP/Atribute point you spend on them comes at a cost - what the exact cost is, is up to the player, but it can be significant.
My sorc starated 12 con and spent zero enhancements on HP, and would never do it. He has 267hp and survives thru every elite raid while needing no healing from anyone except himself just fine.

[Fennario]

Why not do a full comparison? Why compare only the aspect most skewed towards your favored race? Biased maybe?

57 hitpoint vs 7 action points + some amount of attributes point is what the comparison is. It's not 57 free hitpoints like you make it out.

You ask what you would take instead of the con and toughness enhancements.. Here are my answers - all of which absolutelly cannot be taken on your build suggested (max fire dmg, all spell pen, max cha, max con, max toughness - takes up nearly every AP on a capped sorc)
Improved Maximize II+
Improved Empower II+
Improved Heighten
Scroll Mastery.
This results in the drow being able to cast quite a few more nukes then the human could hope to. And heal better then the human could hope too - which is superior to hitpoints once you hit a certain treshhold.

Or hell why don't I be biased like you and just say that instead of those, that extra 7 AP (greater adap + racial tough 3) + several attribute you spent the drow didn't.. The Drow instead spent on say.. Charisma III? Suddely your even further behind on DC. Would real players do that? probably not. Tho they also probably wouldn't put every point into con either.

The point is human do not get a massive amount of free hitpoints. Every AP/Atribute point you spend on them comes at a cost - what the exact cost is, is up to the player, but it can be significant.
My sorc starated 12 con and spent zero enhancements on HP, and would never do it. He has 267hp and survives thru every elite raid while needing no healing from anyone except himself just fine.

This is all well and good, but the reason I feel humans are superior to drow is the fact that they are much more adaptable.

Humans get 1 more feat. That's the big one.

Humans will always be capable of more hitpoints. Whether its just a few or a significant amount depends upon the player.

Drow do have +1 charisma over humans. But not always +1 dc. Depending on what the future end game tomes/gear end up being, drow will either be 1 dc ahead or even.

For me, the chance of maybe being 1 dc behind is worth it for what the human gains. But that's just my opinion. Either race can make a fine sorcerer.

[ForwardWu]

i think when ppls argue against playing a wf soccy, then miss the major point that wf soccy has 2 heal counter (scroll of reconstruction and the recontruction spells itself, given u dont take other repair spells).

When the situation goes well, when a freshy soccy can umd a heal scroll, a wf soccy can also use a reconstruct scroll on him. The major difference is when the situation going bad (e.g., being hit by a dbf and ur hp fall below 100, getting aggro from the spells and fire ele in enter the kobold, etc), the spell counter really really helps. It also gives more different role a wf soccy can do in a quest then a freshy soccy....e.g. you can play as the main healer with 2 heal counters for a wf tank in vod.....(if you gonna say any soccy can scroll heal the wf tank in vod, i will laugh because only scroll reconstruct will nvr be enough for healing back the mt, or arguing a non-wf soccy can also learn reconstruct....how many will they really do that?)

To an extreme...when the situation is alright...you dont even need a heal scroll..you can just use csw pot to regain health.....

Another point ppls like to argue is that how well they can perform with <insert a number> of hit point. I think you can perform well with that amount of hit point because you have no alternatives to choose. One advantage of wf is that you can opt to spend your ap to max your hp if you want...while a drow or even human do not have that option...In some sense you have to be more skillful with <insert a number> of hit point. However, you can imagine you can perform much much better if you have like an extra 100 hit point to play with.


I have a capped human soccy and wf soccy, even my human soccy has better equipment, I prefer to play my wf soccy as he is much more solo friendly....

[DasLurch]

Heya Asp. I was bored tonite and went around looking at builds. I saw yours and thought I'd take a peek and see how you tweaked yours. I must say that I agree with alot of what you say as far as spells and feats. I was suprised that you did not mention the balance skill at all though. I have found that it can be a nice way of avoiding some bad situations as well. Nice post and as always, the comentary is even more entertaining. Cheers!