The Tasmanian Devil: Rogue 13/Ranger 6/Barbarian 1 dps build

[gfunk]

So, I guess we're going to need a spare healer for Dethe and for you now. At this rate our groups are just going to be ultra-squishy rogues and poor clerics.

better than a guild full of pipsqueak halflings that only get hit on 20's... we need something for the clerics to do.

[Uproar]

Is it April fools day already?

[QuantumFX]

Assassin I requires that damage boost II is taken in the ehancement list (which we have shown to be near-useless in other threads). When you work it out, there isn't enough AP's left over to have haste boost IV (though i suppose i could drop some other enhancements). Conversely, Acrobat has haste boost II as one of the pre-req's so it fits in nicely.

Assassin II would be more dps, there isn't any arguing that. I didn't double check that all the enhancements for it would fit though, which is probably something that I should do. The real reason for Acrobat II was simply for faster movement rate, which should be alot of fun when combined with barb speed

I wasn't saying that Acrobat II is bad or that Assassin would be better for this build. Just that Acrobat II costs more AP’s courtesy of the Rogue DEX III prereq. I figured the utility of Acrobat II was what you were going for. (Showtime, Haste Boost, Acrobat speed + Barbarian speed, etc.) And unless Acrobat III gives something completely awesome it's more multiclass friendly.

[gfunk]

I wasn't saying that Acrobat II is bad or that Assassin would be better for this build. Just that Acrobat II costs more AP’s courtesy of the Rogue DEX III prereq. I figured the utility of Acrobat II was what you were going for. (Showtime, Haste Boost, Acrobat speed + Barbarian speed, etc.) And unless Acrobat III gives something completely awesome it's more multiclass friendly.

I understood, I was just talking about the actions points wasted for assassin II on damage boost vs the savings you get out of acrobat II because haste boost is a pre-req. Anyways for all you assassin lovin' people out there, here is the damage output for the assassin varient of the build:

halfling Rogue (assassin) 13/Ranger(tempest) 6/Barbarian 1
main / offhand
5 / 5 .. weapon
8 / 8 .. halfling guile
8 / 8 .. tharnes
7 / 7 .. inspire courage
1 / 1 .. prayer
6 / 6 .. power attack
12 / 12 .. sneak attack training IV
2 / 2 rams might
6 / 6 favored enemy
............. 31 unbuffed str (16 bse, 5lvlup, 6 item, 4 tome)
............. 2 str (rams)
..............2 str (rage)
............. 4 str (barb rage)
............. 2 str (madstone 1)
............. 2 str (madstone 2)
16 / 8 .. (43 str total)
71 / 63 .. total damage modifier

76.5 / 68.5 .. avg normal damage (GS khopesh)
259.5 / 235.5 .. avg crit damage (+10 dmg to crits w/ bloodstone)
57.375 / 51.375 .. weighted reg damage (*17/20)
51.9 / 47.1 .. weighted crit damage (*4/20)
109.275 / 98.475 .. Average unhasted damage per swing
23.275 / 23.275 .. Average backstabbing damage (7d6)
132.55 / 121.75 .. sub total

6.65 / 6.65 .. 2d6 holy tier I (7*19/20)
3.325 / 3.325 .. 1d6 acid tier II (3.5*19/20)
2.2 / 2.2 .. 2d10 acid on crit tier II (11*4/20)
0.7 / 0.7 .. 4d6 acid on 20 tier III(14*1/20)
2.375 / 2.375 .. 1d4 slicing duel shard (2.5*19/20)
15.25 15.25 .. total weapon effects
147.8 137 .. base + weapon effects

5 / 5 .. # of attacks per round
739 / 685 .. total avg damage per round
1424 .. total main + off hand
1566.4 .. * 1.10 melee alacrity
2036.32 .. *1.3 haste boost IV (about 30 points more then the acrobat version for a full round)


This seems to be about the highest (situational) output currently available for a melee build that I have seen anyone post, though I am sure someone will find some build(s) that gets a bit more. (independant of weapons.. eg, a lightning II would be more vs trash and a radience II would give better avg trash damage)

We will also have to wait and see what the exact enhancements for lvls 16 to 20 will be to get final numbers. Also, could add in some things like force rituals on weapons, and a scourge choker if you truely wanted to get the highest number achievable.

[Hadrian]

Is it April fools day already?

No, I am pretty sure that was last week.

[Djeserit]

Hit Points (lvl16):
198
48 con item
30 gfl
18 minos
45 shroud
339 (a bit of a glass cannon)

Feats:
Level 1: (Rogue) Feat: (Selected) Dodge
Level 2: (Ranger) Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Giant, undead or elemental
Level 3: (Ranger) Feat: (Selected) Mobility
Level 6: (Ranger) Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack
Level 9: (Rogue) Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Level 12: (Rogue) Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
Level 15: (Rogue) Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Levels 18: (rogue) power attack

What if you went Dwarf, and took toughness instead of khopesh. Your HP goes up by ~60 points. 400 HP is ok maybe in an off-fighter with greater evasion? You craft two sets, radiance scimitars and mineral daxes. The scimitars are for taking out the trash. I know, much less DPS than Khopesh, but does it matter against trash? and the extra 10% on the radiance ensures you are getting more SA even if it isn't quite as good. Then against the high-fort, undead, ooze, immune to blindness types you have +2 STR and +2 damage, 2d8 base.

I can't follow the calculations, but maybe for a loss of max situational DPS you get a more survivable, well rounded character? If you do the math and show me how much difference there is in optimal conditions and how small the difference against undead; I would be curious.

[kingfisher]

What if you went Dwarf, and took toughness instead of khopesh. Your HP goes up by ~60 points. 400 HP is ok maybe in an off-fighter with greater evasion? You craft two sets, radiance scimitars and mineral daxes. The scimitars are for taking out the trash. I know, much less DPS than Khopesh, but does it matter against trash? and the extra 10% on the radiance ensures you are getting more SA even if it isn't quite as good. Then against the high-fort, undead, ooze, immune to blindness types you have +2 STR and +2 damage, 2d8 base.

I can't follow the calculations, but maybe for a loss of max situational DPS you get a more survivable, well rounded character? If you do the math and show me how much difference there is in optimal conditions and how small the difference against undead; I would be curious.

this is almost exactly what i did/am doing

[gfunk]

What if you went Dwarf, and took toughness instead of khopesh. Your HP goes up by ~60 points. 400 HP is ok maybe in an off-fighter with greater evasion? You craft two sets, radiance scimitars and mineral daxes. The scimitars are for taking out the trash. I know, much less DPS than Khopesh, but does it matter against trash? and the extra 10% on the radiance ensures you are getting more SA even if it isn't quite as good. Then against the high-fort, undead, ooze, immune to blindness types you have +2 STR and +2 damage, 2d8 base.

I can't follow the calculations, but maybe for a loss of max situational DPS you get a more survivable, well rounded character? If you do the math and show me how much difference there is in optimal conditions and how small the difference against undead; I would be curious.

Dwarf is a good alternative, and does high dps (and saves the feat for khopeshes), however you won't get much blinding if you use D-axes, and would want to switch to rapiers or scimtars as you have suggested.

Alternatively you could just go with rapiers or scimitars on the halfling or elf for the better blinding chance and then you still save a feat and get the improved damage from either guile or racial enhancements (elf with rapiers does more dps than the dwarf with dwarven axes, they do the same damage at 50% fort, and the dwarf does more at 100% fort). I like rapiers or scimitars over khopeshes although it is lower dps (of course you will be getting more sneak attack with rapiers or scimitars vs trash, so your dps will be higher in that case).

I should mention the "quickdraw" feat here as well, that has become a topic of interest for people wanting to reduce the activation delay of haste boosts (see posts about "monster" and "ravenger" builds). This has the effect of increasing your dps when you are in situations where a fight lasts longer than the duration of 1 haste boost (say for example when you are fighting the pit fiend, and need 2 or 3 boosts to get through the fight). This build does not have room for that feat, but personally I feel that there are only a few battles that last longer than 20 seconds, and I don't want to make a build just for those fights. Other people may value that feat more which is certainly their perogative, but I did want to mention it here as it is something you may want to think about.

below is a link to a chart with dps from various version of this build (halfling with rapier and khopesh, dwarf with dwarven axes, elf with rapier, and human with rapiers). By droping khopesh you have room for either toughness or quickdraw on any of the builds. With human you have room for both feats. The extra attack bonus from elf or dwarf is also something to consider, and I think it may be quite valuable in mod 9.
http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/t...atonic/tas.jpg
(note, a dwarf with rapiers or scimitars will do about the same dps as a human with rapiers or scimtars (depending on tomes, at a +4 tome the human gets an edge.. not a big deal)

edit. vs undead none of these variations do a tonne of dps. it works out to (chart with 100% fort):
http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/t...wPicture11.jpg

[BrianTheHun]

When going from level 17 to 20, you could save 2 AP's by taking halfling dex II instead of rogue dex III. Unless, of course, you need rogue dex III for one of your enhancements, or you already had it but just didn't list it.

[kingfisher]

http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/t...atonic/tas.jpg

sweet thanks. i like the dwarf for the edge vs the rednamed 100% fort mobs. i know the dwarf is lower dps vs trash, but imo its not as important. will use a rad scimmy or 2 and woe scimmy's plus some gs da's. any thoughts on making some dust II's for this guy?

[gfunk]

When going from level 17 to 20, you could save 2 AP's by taking halfling dex II instead of rogue dex III. Unless, of course, you need rogue dex III for one of your enhancements, or you already had it but just didn't list it.

rogue dex III was needed for the acrobat version (its a pre-req).

[BrianTheHun]

rogue dex III was needed for the acrobat version (its a pre-req).

Ok, I wasn't sure of that since my rogue didn't take either way of the acrobat or assassin enhancements.

[Djeserit]

Elf?!?

The HP situation, biggest weakness of the build I think, would be even worse. Go Dorf for sure.

Total side note: did a PUG with a four-person guild. Quite a bit of chit-chatting. It turns out the girl is playing her first toon, and her friends advised her to try Elf Rogue.....She said she was getting frustrated at dying all the time. I asked her HP. 86 at level 10. I tried to suggest politely that WF or Dorf would be better, and then her (male) friend chimes in, "Yeah but they don't have such a nice ass."

[shadeofnight]

Been looking over this guide, and trying a few new things as well, and came up with a few questions....

1) Is there any room for the dragonmarks in this build and where would be a good place to put them?

2) I did not notice Ranger Dex in the list. I am still a bit new to enchantments, do Rogue and and Ranger Dex stack?

3) Trying to figure out where to put skill points is very tricky. I am always torn between trying to get my use device up and keeping a few of my rogue critical skills like open locks and disarm traps still working.

4) Are any of the Ranger spells helpful and worth raising wisdom for?

5) Are their other good weapons choices (IE long way to go for the exotic ones).

6) Any other thoughts on this build from other people?

[gfunk]

Been looking over this guide, and trying a few new things as well, and came up with a few questions....

1) Is there any room for the dragonmarks in this build and where would be a good place to put them?

This build is incredibly feat starved, without even room for toughness. Its not meant to be practical, just fun. If you want more useability, then go monk or fighter instead of barb (+1 feat) and use either scimitars or rapiers instead of khopesh (save a feat). You could then use the extra feats for either healing marks or toughness. Rapier/scimitar do less dps then khopesh however if you make a radience weapon you will blind your opponents more often (wtih the higher crit range) which will increase your sneak attack frequency, making up for the dps difference vs. trash.

2) I did not notice Ranger Dex in the list. I am still a bit new to enchantments, do Rogue and and Ranger Dex stack?

ranger and rogue dex do not stack.

3) Trying to figure out where to put skill points is very tricky. I am always torn between trying to get my use device up and keeping a few of my rogue critical skills like open locks and disarm traps still working.

its a tough balance, but rogue does get alot of skill points. I don't think that open locks and disarm have to be maxed out for most game content, but UMD definately should be maxed.

4) Are any of the Ranger spells helpful and worth raising wisdom for?

with only 6 levels of ranger you get access to two lvl 1 ranger spells. One of these should be rams might. Jump is a good choice for the other one. You don't need alot of SP to keep these going, and you can always equip an SP item. I favor an existential stalemate item which can give you +6 wisdom and 150 sp.

5) Are their other good weapons choices (IE long way to go for the exotic ones).

If you want this character to be practical then I think you should go with rapiers or scimitars and just forget khopesh. Pick keen ones at low levels. When you can craft, make a radience weapon and a mineral II.

6) Any other thoughts on this build from other people?

This is similar to a build called the ravenger that was posted sometime after this one. It got alot more feedback so I recommmend checking that thread for more ideas

replies in red

[shadeofnight]

replies in red

Thanks

One last question. What skills did you go for when leveling up ranger those 6 levels?

[Thelmallen]

This is a really cool build, Leafy. I gotta stop reading posts like this or I'm going to get alt-itis like Quik and have to open up another account!

[Kanaric]

Thinking of making a character based somewhat on this, what would I need to change if I wanted to go dwarf and use assassin?


Is there a build like that floating around?

[kanbeki]

I have 2 ver of this build one dwarf one wf, wf followed the halfling template deveated a bit with the dwarf but so far the dwarf seems to be race of choice if you don't mind dropping some dps, just sayin.

[Valezra]

I hate to point it out but there are several calculation errors in this build. You've included sneak attack into the base damage modifers which throws everything off and the modifier for base damage is 15/20 not 17/20.

That's all I found so far. The DPS will prob drop below 600.