Arguments against respec?

[Aaxeyu]

The whole point of the FotM builds is that the game rules keep changing; if they would quit screwing around with the rules, about 90% of the people screaming for respec would stop.

So you want them to stop developing the game?

Not.

Yes, what can you do in DDO appart from grind loot?

How is that even remotely an "I win" button? Or are you just afraid that if people can fix their mistakes, you won't be able to keep up?

It's an I win button in the sense that those who respec a toon instead of rerolling wont have to work for that toon at all, just directly to cap with full raid gear.

And FYI it would benefit us powergamers alot, we could just reroll some old toon that's filled with raidloot to a FotM build, in an instance I would have a perfect geared FotM build.

Frankly, my monk splash is the last character that I plan on respec'ing, but if they nerf the splash, why shouldn't we be allowed to change our characters to compensate?

Why would you? We all know that the rules change sometimes. Just adapt your toon or reroll.
Asking for respec is the easy way out, and what makes you think that it will only be used to fix mistakes?

No one could possibly get nerfed by that capstone.

That's what I said, wasn't it?

Again, it's not about strength. It's about not wanting to run titan 100 more times for the chattering ring just so I can have a character as powerful as the one I had before x got changed.

Why wouldn't you have to run the titan 100 times to get the chattering ring?
Do you feel that we should all be given all raid loot when we make our characters?

However, I have yet to see a cogent argument or set of arguments against allowing respec; most of the anti-respec crowd that I have seen either attempt to refute the pro-respec arguments (without much success, IMO), or simply state that they are against it without giving any reason at all.

Heh.. read your own replies too.

And still sthink that there is no arguments against respec?

[Missing_Minds]

I think even your example is stretching it; how good of a paladin will you get with a base 11 CHA? Not to mention that as a fighter, he is most likely chaotic good, and won't be able to use those true chaos weapons anymore, etc, and that's with relatively similar classes.

I can see it causing problems between similar builds (bards/sorcs, etc), but then they already want a lot of the same stuff.

Actually, Feynman, I think it was referring to a complete respect, not a character respect. He (or she) was wanting to re allocate stat points to turn himself into an effective paladin now that he ate a +3 tome.

This form of respec I am against personally and that is a fact. To me it is the "I'm lazy, so just give me my new character, same as the old" button.

[feynman]

So you want them to stop developing the game?

Right, because obviously it's either your way or your way, and I don't get a vote. Of course I don't want them to stop developing the game. I wouldn't mind if they would quit screwing around with the basic rules, but that doesn't appear to be an option, so I'm going for this.

Yes, what can you do in DDO appart from grind loot?

Have fun?

It's an I win button in the sense that those who respec a toon instead of rerolling wont have to work for that toon at all, just directly to cap with full raid gear.

You mean, other than the effort that already went into the character to level up and get all the raid gear? That makes no sense at all

And FYI it would benefit us powergamers alot, we could just reroll some old toon that's filled with raidloot to a FotM build, in an instance I would have a perfect geared FotM build.

That only works so far; your sorcerers gear isn't going to help a barbarian very much, no matter how uber it may be.

Why would you? We all know that the rules change sometimes. Just adapt your toon or reroll.

Because I have 3 capped toons gathering dust because rules changes have rendered them obsolete, and I don't feel like rerolling, releveling, and running 500 raids to get all my gear back for all 3 of them.

Asking for respec is the easy way out, and what makes you think that it will only be used to fix mistakes?

It's the common sense way out, and I don't care if someone uses it to change their character 5 times a day for different quests. What possible difference could it make?

That's what I said, wasn't it?

I was implying that it was a bad example because it's a sucky capstone.

Why wouldn't you have to run the titan 100 times to get the chattering ring?
Do you feel that we should all be given all raid loot when we make our characters?

No, but I'd like to keep the raid loot I've already pulled without being de facto forced to reroll. Again, if characters aged and everyone had to reroll every few months, I'd be cool with that.

Heh.. read your own replies too.

Read any of the dozen threads on the subject; lots of detail about why to respec, nothing on why not beyond "I don't like it."

And still sthink that there is no arguments against respec?

Yes, yes I do

[feynman]

Actually, Feynman, I think it was referring to a complete respect, not a character respect. He (or she) was wanting to re allocate stat points to turn himself into an effective paladin now that he ate a +3 tome.

OK, I see your point, but I still don't care

[bobbryan2]

1. turbine does not have budget in the current plan to allow for work to be done to implement a respect.

2. Analysis of a respect has yet to be done to allow for budget planning of a respect option. (Kate's comment of "oh.. the players don't seem to really want a barber shop" 1.5 years back seems to scream of this.)

3. The database has been organized in such a fashion that their admin/expert does not believe it is possible to do a respect of characters.

1. Ok... they know which way they're going. But you don't know if it's included or not. So this point could be better phrased as If Turbine wasn't planning on doing a respec already, then they don't have it budgeted... but if they do, or if they fit it in, they'll figure out how to put it in. Basically.. you don't know what's in their budget or not... not for certain.

2. Again.. that's a stretch. Kate seems to have a bit of a disconnect with the players; I won't debate you on that. But to say the devs haven't kicked around the idea and brainstormed is just false. How many interviews have come up where this question is posed, and the answer comes out similar to.... well, everytime we think about adding a new skill, the subject of a skill respec comes up again. They obviously talk about it in a cost/benefit scenario.

3. That's not really true. Due to the complexity of the level up system, partial respecs are very very tricky. The idea of a 'full respec' actually arose out of this fact, as a way to sidestep all the tough-to-code issues of a partial respec.

[bobbryan2]

And guys...

RESPEC

not RESPECT

Short for Respecialize.

[mediocresurgeon]

I fail to see what problems a character respec would solve. Characters become outdated. That's just a fact. When you no longer enjoy playing one you have, make a new one.

I see a lot of casual gamers want a respec system because they don't have the time to redo their characters and regear them. While I can relate to this, I don't think it will help bridge the gap between the casual gamer and the powergamer.

Casual Gamer A did not plan his/her character all the way through before capping it, and is now upset. Casual Gamer A decides to respec his character, including all class levels, race, feats, skills, stats, etc. Chances are, Casual Gamer A did not plan his/her character strategy out in full AGAIN, because they are a casual gamer and don't have the time to crunch the numbers and do the research.

In other words, the respec did nothing for the player.

I would rather have the Dev team working on new content than a respec. (Yes, these are mutually exclusive.)

[Gunga]

Respecialize.

What an utter insult.

[kingfisher]

i dont really like it because it goes against the idea of dnd. not hugely against it mind you, but i really dont wanna see the same **** builds in every quest. i understand where people are coming from, saying that there have been changes to the game that make their toons less than optimal, but to me that's ok and adds flavor.

i would largely support;
skill respec (no brainer)
alignment change (happens every day, why is this not already in game?)

but am strongy against;
race change (what-tf is the point?)
class changes (how the hell do you unlearn a profession?)

[feynman]

I fail to see what problems a character respec would solve. Characters become outdated. That's just a fact. When you no longer enjoy playing one you have, make a new one.

I see a lot of casual gamers want a respec system because they don't have the time to redo their characters and regear them. While I can relate to this, I don't think it will help bridge the gap between the casual gamer and the powergamer.

Casual Gamer A did not plan his/her character all the way through before capping it, and is now upset. Casual Gamer A decides to respec his character, including all class levels, race, feats, skills, stats, etc. Chances are, Casual Gamer A did not plan his/her character strategy out in full AGAIN, because they are a casual gamer and don't have the time to crunch the numbers and do the research.

In other words, the respec did nothing for the player.

I would rather have the Dev team working on new content than a respec. (Yes, these are mutually exclusive.)

1. If they screw up their respec, they can respec again, fixing the problem.

2. New content and respec mechanism are NOT mutually exclusive; programmers have to wait on other people to do their job on new content, and can work on this while they wait.

3. The main goal is not to help casual gamers, although that is helpful, but to allow people whose characters have been nerfed to change decisions that they would not have made had they known about the rules changes, primarily so they don't have to recraft greensteel weapons, run 500 raids to get their raid gear back, etc. Why should I have to start over because the devs decided to change something?

[feynman]

i dont really like it because it goes against the idea of dnd. not hugely against it mind you, but i really dont wanna see the same **** builds in every quest. i understand where people are coming from, saying that there have been changes to the game that make their toons less than optimal, but to me that's ok and adds flavor.

i would largely support;
skill respec (no brainer)
alignment change (happens every day, why is this not already in game?)

but am strongy against;
race change (what-tf is the point?)
class changes (how the hell do you unlearn a profession?)

Well, we left reality behind a long time ago; let's just stipulate the the panjandrum of the ooberti-notinus shows up and lets you respec completely.

I disagree strongly with the "Everyone will be the same" idea; not only because I don't care if everyone makes the same build, but because I think people are more likely to try different builds if they know that they can fix it without starting over.

[Aaxeyu]

Ok, Feynman, you may not agree with the arguments, or even understand them, but saying that there are none is simply ignorant.

[feynman]

Ok, Feynman, you may not agree with the arguments, or even understand them, but saying that there are none is simply ignorant.

It's not a matter of understanding or agreeing, but that the "arguments" are predicated on false precepts. I could say that a respecs necessary because the next mod will make everyone's characters unplayable, but that would be a false precept, and I would not dignify it with the term "argument"; these are excuses for people who don't want anything to happen if it doesn't benefit them, even if it helps others and doesn't affect them at all.

Get your head out, and you may see things clearer.

Well, that makes things easier.

[Dexxaan]

Imagine waking up one morning and having Gunga show up as a Dress-wearing female Halfling Bard-Cleric. And he does it for ***** and giggles? Friends are what they are...the ugly dwarf can go to college and relearn his stuff, but he´s still an ugly dwarf. And unless Michael Jackson Doctors overrun Stormreach the answer is simply....NO.

You got a problem, Dex?

OMG.


ROFLMMFAO.


Explaining my outburst of laughter in my ofice is gonna be rough.

[Steiner-Davion]

Not trying to be argumentative but can you provide any basis of fact to backup your points?

Well Turbine has come out and said point blank, that the Character Database DOES NOT record when you use tomes, so that make the question of Sill Point respec and INT Tomes a tricky question.

In my opinion, Turbine should simply suck it up and Have the Int Tome be applied as early as it normally could be used, ie immediately after initial character Creation. EXAMPLE: Your Rogue started with a 13 INT at level one when you initially rolled him/her up you would have 36 ((8+1) x 4 = Skill Points at Level 1. If you character who was respeccing thier skills had used a +3 INT Tome previously, the INT Tome would be reapplied immediately after the Intial "re-creation" of the character was complete (ie level 1 was respecced). So before you re-do level 2, the INT Tome is applied and you INT would now be 16, giving you +3 skill points, instead of just +1. Now your rogue would get 11 Skill Points a level, instead of 9.

Yes in the long run you would end up with a couple more skill points depending on when you used the tome, but it is not game breaking in any fashion.

[Steiner-Davion]

It would be an Iwin-button that would kill the game.
Some anti respec points:
Everyone would hoard up all raidloot they can get their hands on incase they respec to a class that needs it.
A player with a few capped toons filled with raid loot can keep repseccing them into the new FotM, reducing the challange of the game greatly - I win button.
There would simply be nothing left to do if you never had to grind the old raids for items, accept it or not.
You would no longer have to work for your new characters, good planning when making your character would no longer be necessary - I win button.
Now I know that you can't plan for nerfs and changes, but I got no sympathy for people who wants to respec their monk splash, we knew that it was overpowered and that the risk for a nerf is there.

If you got a non-pure ranger toon that uses ranged combat you are not exactly getting "nerfed" by the capstone, only weaker in comparison to the potential of other builds. This is the case of every change, did people whine about fighters/barbs/paladins getting nerfed when tempest I was implemented? I don't recall that.
If you want have a stronger character then just reroll and work for it.

Some of the pro-respec arguments could aswell be used for giving all new toons every raid item in the game, because "I have a life and can't play all day".

EDIT:Before you chime in here borror0, come up with something better than "Your argument don't hold water because I, the all mighty Borror0, doubt it!!". kthanks

While I can somewhat appreciate your arguement of how this will be an "I win Button" there is one major hitch in the whole "I'm going ot keep every piece of raid Loot I find, just incase I want to switch to the new FotM Build."

This Limitation is one we all face right now and have been since Day 1: INVENTORY LIMITATIONS. There is simply no way (even with the new Bind to Account Shared Bank Tab) that any one Character or Account could hold enough useful loot for every Possible Build idea. The Requires for such Loot, even Raid Gear alone makes this impossible. But yes, I can see how this might be a problem, I jsut don't think it will be as big of a problem as people are making it out to be.

[Steiner-Davion]

I fail to see what problems a character respec would solve. Characters become outdated. That's just a fact. When you no longer enjoy playing one you have, make a new one.

I see a lot of casual gamers want a respec system because they don't have the time to redo their characters and regear them. While I can relate to this, I don't think it will help bridge the gap between the casual gamer and the powergamer.

Casual Gamer A did not plan his/her character all the way through before capping it, and is now upset. Casual Gamer A decides to respec his character, including all class levels, race, feats, skills, stats, etc. Chances are, Casual Gamer A did not plan his/her character strategy out in full AGAIN, because they are a casual gamer and don't have the time to crunch the numbers and do the research.

In other words, the respec did nothing for the player.

I would rather have the Dev team working on new content than a respec. (Yes, these are mutually exclusive.)

As a Casual Player, I completely beg to differ with your assumption that it does nothing for me. I am much more likely to get bored with the game and leave if I simply am not able to due my characters, cannot advance past a certain part of the game and its storyline. A Respec could help mitigate this from happening.

Turbine needs to ask them selves and take a good long hard look at their customer base, who do they have more of and who do they value more: Casual Gamers (who are IMO more apt to be here forthe long haul) or Power Gamers?

[nytewolf]

Casual Gamer A did not plan his/her character all the way through before capping it, and is now upset. Casual Gamer A decides to respec his character, including all class levels, race, feats, skills, stats, etc. Chances are, Casual Gamer A did not plan his/her character strategy out in full AGAIN, because they are a casual gamer and don't have the time to crunch the numbers and do the research.

In other words, the respec did nothing for the player.

First let me preface what I am about to say by stating I am not attempting to state I am for or against respec's.

Now on to my comments. The above quoted section is a recurring arguement by those against Respec as a reason not to allow it and seems one of the stronger arguements anti-respec people have. But this is rebuttled time and again by the pro-respec people stating this is not the reason they are asking for it. They are asking for it due to not being able to see the future and see changes Turbine will be making that will affect some or all characters. You can plan your character all you want, and even make sure the character is designed the best it can be without violating glaring irregularites such as Evasion in Medium or Heavy armor which was eventually fixed.

But what happens when and if Turbine changes the rules that affects your character that was not expected or foreseen?

Eaxample: Many people are asking for a change to monk wisdom to AC to try to curtail the monk 2 level splash. (Which btw is perfectly legal within DnD 3.5 rules.) If this is changed in any way is this the players fault? No! So they are told re-roll for poor character design.

I for one agree I do not want to see people respecing every time the whim hits them but really is it bad to allow players to fix characters after changes come that make the character obsolete or less than fun to play when the changes were not foreseen??