Can we come to a compromise? - My respec proposal

[Borror0]

Sorry, I don't get it. Isn't the difference still whether you take rogue at level 1 or not?

SableShadow already explained it, but just try it. Take the ranger, rogue than all the way ranger and than compare to a all ranger and then one rogue at level 16.

Perhaps there is some middle ground that allows you to insert some new classes but not allow you to gain them all the low end of the XP spectrum.

Perhaps, but everyone keeps telling me that I want to 'give everyone a free pass' rather than finding a way around it.

[Aesop]

Perhaps, but everyone keeps telling me that I want to 'give everyone a free pass' rather than finding a way around it.

I object... I never said that you wanted to give everyone a free pass.

Again I still say a reroll costs half your XP and you get to keep everything

this means the last couple of levels you have to re-earn, but you get to choose what your Stats are, what Classes you take, what Feat you take, what skills you take and you don't loose the items or favor you've been grinding out for the last couple of years. Because I tell ya the thing that pushes me away from games more than anything else is the grind. It feels like work and not fun when you constantly have to grind.


Aesop

[Borror0]

I object... I never said that you wanted to give everyone a free pass.

Again I still say a reroll costs half your XP and you get to keep everything

The problem is that it's quite a spanking if Turbine ever swings the nerf bat pretty hard.

[Cold_Stele]

So what changes did Turbine make that have MADE you reroll a tune?

I have a 10 Barb/6 Ranger with GS Heavy Picks and dual Deathnips wasted on him now, not deleted him yet but rerolled THF WF to replace him.

Ironically enough if I'd have gone 14/2 with the intention of exploiting bugs in Fred's respec checking mechanisms he'd still be a first rate toon in mod 9.

[Aesop]

The problem is that it's quite a spanking if Turbine ever swings the nerf bat pretty hard.

Well if I could get the wiki up I'd get the specific numbers... but really it s not that bad


for a comparison

level 20 Experience in PnP is 190000 xp

half that is 95000 xp

that's a little ways into level 14


DDO is roughly 10 times the xp once you break out past level 4 or so; so the break down would be about the same.

Releveling 6 levels sounds a lot better and easier than 20 ... especially when you don't have to get a new Chattering Ring and +3 Tome

Aesop

[Borror0]

that's a little ways into level 14

Yeah. Almost gets you your second AP.

It seems harder to code*, makes the 'resetting repetition counts' necessary and is am harder cost, though.

*Assuming you do that with the 'token method'. Otherwise, it's even harder.

EDIT: Actually, it risks of being level 15 and 105,499 XP

[RazorrX]

Goals:

• Allowing players to adapt to game change.
• Being affordable for everyone, casual and hardcore alike.
• Trying to address (or reduce) some of the anti-respec fears.
• Avoiding hundreds of nearly uncodable restrictions.

The only issue I have is that even this allows for changes that the game did not break. IE a fighter can take 1 level of mage then respec to mage and has basically changed his entire character. Sure he starts over at 1, but he has all his bound gear, etc. That is pretty much going against what you are saying is the purpose of Respecing. It is no longer fixing something the game broke and more of a change my class but keep my gear thing.

I do like your idea as far as how it would help the people who felt they needed a respec, but there is still a big way to exploit it. We all know that the monk wis bonus to ac is over powered on splash builds, everyone who has taken it should understand that there will most likely be a 'nerf' to it. This would fix that I guess, but in a way they are making thier beds now, so they should really lie in it. Also since we have seen the capstones it makes pure builds a bit more desirable, so those who multiclassed may want to change that. I can see trying to help those, i really can. And I can almost support this for that.

Basic idea:

When a character has to respec, he talks to an NPC (I'll leave the aspect lore out for now) that pops out the equivalent of the character creation screen. The players rebuilds the character as he would wants it to be (he can only use, as starting class, a class he had levels of previously however). Once the player is done, he confirms his choice and his character is transformed back to a level 1 character of the class he picked.

The NPC also gives him 'class level token' for each class levels he had. For an example, a level 16 fighter will be given 15 'fighter class tokens'. For a 14 wizard/2 rogue that picked rogue as starting class, he will receive 14 'wizard class tokens' and 1 'rogue class token'. (This could be changed into a percentage of tokens if necessary.)

This could be done in a quest like the dragonmark one, but have when you leave the quest all tokens are lost. That way you level up all at once, or to a point, but you do not get to come back and level more later. Respecing should not be too easy.

Favor, tomes and equipment are kept.

Not tomes. Keeping Tomes makes it very unfair and unequal to new players. No new player would be able to have prime stats as high as a tome eaters. This makes a huge difference on starting skills, etc. and is inherently unfair. The argument that new players should gain access to 32pt builds is based on this very arguement. Equipement, okay, favor, okay but tomes should be wiped. For one thing it would make it easier to code.

Timer:

I like either of those two proposals:

• Fixed one to two month timer
• Smaller timer, at first, but goes up with frequency use (and slowly reduces if not used)

I am for a limited number per account that is increased every game birthday. Say you start with 3 and get 1 per year during the great birthday bash.

Advantages:

1. Does not seem impossible to code.
2. Can easily be used to adapt game changes.
3. Increases the quantity of players at lower levels.*
4. Reduces the cheesiness by making it a pain to change class drastically.
5. Mimics more closely (although not perfectly) the tested models found in other MMOs.

Number 2 is a vital thing for me, You should not be respecing because you want to. It should be something that has harmed your character to the point of screwing it up as far as usefullness goes.

I do not think you should EVER be able to repec race. Many are going to want to respec to half orc because they feel they would be more uber as a barb, etc. but the half orc will not make thier dwarf any less a fighter.

Wish there was a way to stop an exploit on classes, but doubt that can be done.

New race and new class should equal reroll.

SO on the whole I support the concept here.

[Gunga]

I have a 10 Barb/6 Ranger with GS Heavy Picks and dual Deathnips wasted on him now, not deleted him yet but rerolled THF WF to replace him.

Ironically enough if I'd have gone 14/2 with the intention of exploiting bugs in Fred's respec checking mechanisms he'd still be a first rate toon in mod 9.

He's still viable. In fact, 12/6/2 Barb/Ranger/Rogue with FBII, Tempest and Evasion is a great melee toon and could be a lot of fun. What's the problem?

Mine is 14/2 waiting for tempest. She's a much slower melee than yours is, but I'm a bit more patient.

[Cold_Stele]

He's still viable. In fact, 12/6/2 Barb/Ranger/Rogue with FBII, Tempest and Evasion is a great melee toon and could be a lot of fun. What's the problem?

What's the problem with a TWF Tempest Frenzied Barb? Come on...TWF...Tempest...Frenzy... those three words are really going to be getting me a lot of invites into groups right?

You don't strike me as the type of guy who be satisfied to make do with playing a sub optimal 'viable' build. Me neither.

Mine is 14/2 waiting for tempest. She's a much slower melee than yours is, but I'm a but more patient.

Patience had nothing to do with it - we both decided which we wanted first, Crit Rage or Tempest - you won the mental coin toss, I lost, nothing more.

That one choice means one toon excels and the other gets relegated to 'viable', all based on changes Turbine made to an enhancement that's been in game for what, 18 months? And no, you don't see me whining about Trbine either.

[Gunga]

What's the problem with a TWF Tempest Frenzied Barb? Come on...TWF...Tempest...Frenzy... those three words are really going to be getting me a lot of invites into groups right?

You don't strike me as the type of guy who be satisfied to make do with playing a sub optimal 'viable' build. Me neither.



Patience had nothing to do with it - we both decided which we wanted first, Crit Rage or Tempest - you won the mental coin toss, I lost, nothing more.

That one choice means one toon excels and the other gets relegated to 'viable', all based on changes Turbine made to an enhancement that's been in game for what, 18 months? And no, you don't see me whining about Trbine either.

I disagree. Your post is just another panicky kneejerk. Do you run around after all of those number crunching posts? They are very informative snapshots of what is going on in a perfect and isolated world, but they don't make the toon. You do. I have a twf barb started back in the LoD days. He was going to be 18/2 barb/fighter until I got tired of not being able to whip a wand. Now he's 12/2/2 Barb/Fig/Ran. He's the highest DPS toon I have. No one takes agro from me. I steal agro with my vorpals and PA turned off.

He's a viable toon even though he wasn't conceived in a calulator with all of the available enhancements and capstone laid out before me.

People should stop whining, pull their needy cupped little gimme hands back to their sides, and wait until the new mod is out. Maybe your toon isn't gimped. Maybe the way you think is.

[Cold_Stele]

You're supposed to be a smart guy, see if you can work this one out...

What build can kill itself faster than any other in game? I even have Tempest to do it 10% faster than any other TWF crazy enough to take FB.

Think that's BS? YOU take FB instead of Crit Rage on your guy.

No I thought not.

And you STILL haven't heard me whining about Turbine, or making 'panicky, knee jerk' comments.

[Gunga]

You're supposed to be a smart guy, see if you can work this one out...

What build can kill itself faster than any other in game? I even have Tempest to do it 10% faster than any other TWF crazy enough to take FB.

Think that's BS? YOU take FB instead of Crit Rage on your guy.

No I thought not.

And you STILL haven't heard me whining about Turbine, or making 'panicky, knee jerk' comments.

But you need a respec system...

[Cold_Stele]

But you need a respec system...

Nice response - totally avoid my point and go fishing for something else to have a go at, eh?

Just like I haven't been whining or making 'panicky, knee jerk comments' on these threads, neither have I made a single statement for or against respec.

[sephiroth1084]

[/list]
Not tomes. Keeping Tomes makes it very unfair and unequal to new players. No new player would be able to have prime stats as high as a tome eaters. This makes a huge difference on starting skills, etc. and is inherently unfair. The argument that new players should gain access to 32pt builds is based on this very arguement. Equipement, okay, favor, okay but tomes should be wiped. For one thing it would make it easier to code.

No new player can have stats as high as 32 pt. characters. No new player can have lvl 2+ stats as high as vets. It's part of the reward for being a long-time player. Also, that new player would be able to respec and read a tome when he gets one, just like anybody else.

I see no reason for someone to lose their hard-earned tomes upon respec. I do, however, feel that permanent (lvl points and tomes) changes to Int should retroactively increase skill points. This could be a little difficult to code, but worthwhile, I believe. That would solve most tome-related issues as far as respec goes.

[Quanefel]

No new player can have stats as high as 32 pt. characters. No new player can have lvl 2+ stats as high as vets. It's part of the reward for being a long-time player. Also, that new player would be able to respec and read a tome when he gets one, just like anybody else.

I see no reason for someone to lose their hard-earned tomes upon respec. I do, however, feel that permanent (lvl points and tomes) changes to Int should retroactively increase skill points. This could be a little difficult to code, but worthwhile, I believe. That would solve most tome-related issues as far as respec goes.

I have brought this up earlier. Personally I see the Int tome in something like a skill respec preventing Turbine from coding that type of respec out. They already said they are having problems with it, so if we as players remove that as an obstacle for them then they might have an easier time coding it because it will not be a monkey on their backs. The other tomes they can keep as inherent bonus, that is not a problem. But if the Int tomes are the issue for them, we need to compromise and help make their job easier if we really want a skill respec faster. Besides, if done and the Int tomes are removed from the intial skill respec coding, we can eat an Int tome later after the skill respec is added to get all our skill points back and it allows everyone across the board to get the skills they want when they find an Int tome. I hope that made sense.

[branmakmuffin]

I do, however, feel that permanent (lvl points and tomes) changes to Int should retroactively increase skill points.

If by this you mean that a player should be able to allocate skill points that would have been awarded to a character at previous levels if the character's INT had been then what it is now, that makes no sense from a realism point of view. The way D&D works, learning a skill is based on how smart a character is at the time it learns the skill. Getting smarter now shouldn't make the character a better learner then.

I have no idea how D&D works in this regard, but I would never allow such thing if I were DMing.

[Steiner-Davion]

Getting warmer

still have a few issues though

here is one
"The NPC also gives him 'class level token' for each class levels he had. For an example, a level 16 fighter will be given 15 'fighter class tokens'. For a 14 wizard/2 rogue that picked rogue as starting class, he will receive 14 'wizard class tokens' and 1 'rogue class token'. (This could be changed into a percentage of tokens if necessary.)"

So if I am a 16 wizard I can do this and then level up to level 5 and then pop my 15 tokens and be 20 without workng for 17-20?

I know this is not what you intended but we need something to prevent this.

How are you addressing tomes? Specifically INT

Actually I think he addressed this a bit further on, saying that once you reach your "old character level" (16 in this case, all remain level tokens would be destroyed.

[Steiner-Davion]

Issue with this is then if you ate a int tome after level 1 you NEED to respec just to gain the points from previous levels. While I don't think super punishment is needed for respec I can't support a reward for doing it beond correcting mistakes or changes in the game.
Perhaps all toons reguardless should get back int skill points when they eat a tome.

I'm not entirely sureI know what you mean by "INT Skill Points" When you eat a tome? Would these be sometihng akin to the level up attribute points you get, meaning that 1 point of INT costs 1 INT Skill point?

[Steiner-Davion]

Why not just make them regain all the XP? This, combined with first time bonuses and the "You have repeated this quest X times" mechanism, would limit the frequency people would be able to respec.

Some benefits:

1) more low/mid level content being run as people relevel
2) more of the less popular quests being run (repeated STK 15 times, where do we go this time?)
3) less coding (no need for tokens)

Well if you make people regain all the XP, they (some people) simply will not be able to gain much XP. One of the biggest problems I see with DDO, is that there are some quests which are jsut not worth doing for any reaosn other than FAVOR, as they give terrible XP and offer absolutely no rewards. Combine their lack of XP, with repetivie quest running penaltie,s and you are soon at zero XP.

THen take into consideration quests like the VON series, whihc require you to rerun quests over and over to flag for the Raid. You have 20 Dragon Raids under your belt, well now as you are regaining your XP, there is no point in running that excellent quest, because you will get no XP for the flaggin quests and little for VON 5 and none for 6.