W/P function question

[FluffyCalico]

I have seen alot of threads both wanting and not wanting a nerf to w/p.

I was wondering if this compromise would work.

1) Leave w/p the way it is
2) Make the creatures hit die size 4 times smaller and have 4 times more of them leaving the end hp the same +- rounding.

As the only issue I see with w/p is the overinflation of HD size. I say if it's broke due to x then fix x not break y also.

[Dracolich]

Who said anything at all was being done? All I see avout W/P is a bunch of people either afraid of it changing or people wanting it to change. I have yet to see anything from a dev saying they were even contemplating it. So why keep bringing it up is why I ask.

[Gunga]

Psst.









This is soooo two months ago.

[Impaqt]

I have seen alot of threads both wanting and not wanting a nerf to w/p.

I was wondering if this compromise would work.

1) Leave w/p the way it is
2) Make the creatures hit die size 4 times smaller and have 4 times more of them leaving the end hp the same +- rounding.

As the only issue I see with w/p is the overinflation of HD size. I say if it's broke due to x then fix x not break y also.

This "Solution" only breaks more things to cover up the underlying issue.

The real problem is that W/P is nowhere near PnP. the right way to fix it would be to drastically reduce its effectivness. Not make more less powerful mobs to kill.

[maddmatt70]

I started running reaver refuge on my fighter norg the last week or so and was reminded me how frustrating this is. I don't want to use rapiers on my dwarven fighter norg much less a w/p rapier - HE USES DWARVEN WAR AXES. Just the other day I got annihilated in kills by a couple of buddies of mine one a barbarian and the other on a ranger who both had all the w/p weapons. I just head for every red named I can and try not to fight trash mobs if I can because on every trash mob I do about 40% of the stat damage of either of my two buddies because I will not use a w/p rapier or dagger or short sword and I am not a barbarian or ranger.

It is pretty silly that my ranged fighter who has improved critical pierce and my battle bard who also is pierce specced are so much better on the trash mobs in SOS and Prey. On the red names on the other hand I do quite well and often keep aggro because I can spam my fighter haste boosts and do some real damage. I can't wait until next mod going to open a can of red name whoop a... On trash mobs its not even worth fighting in a sense with the w/p differential.

Edit: this is what I would call poor dungeon design. A slash specced character should do the same as a pierce specced character.

[Dracolich]

Edit: this is what I would call poor dungeon design. A slash specced character should do the same as a pierce specced character.

Maybe we should make Imp.Crit be more specific like in the PHB. You cant specify a class of weapon damage, you have to pick "A" weapon IE bastard sword, Rapier etc etc. Not piercing or slashing. That is way to ambiguous(sp) I tried to get my DM to let my ranger/scout get imp crit ranged...he said yeah right.

[Cinwulf]

Who said anything at all was being done? All I see avout W/P is a bunch of people either afraid of it changing or people wanting it to change. I have yet to see anything from a dev saying they were even contemplating it. So why keep bringing it up is why I ask.

I'm with you. Is w/p broken? I must have missed something? AFAIK it's working as intended.

[Junts]

I started running reaver refuge on my fighter norg the last week or so and I was reminded me how frustrating this is. I don't want to use rapiers on my dwarven fighter norg much less a w/p rapier - HE USES DWARVEN WAR AXES. Just the other day I got annihilated in kills by a couple of buddies of mine one a barbarian and the other on a ranger who both had all the w/p weapons. I just head for every red named I can and try not to fight trash mobs if I can because on every trash mob I do about 40% of the stat damage of either of my two buddies because I will not use a w/p rapier or dagger or short sword and I am not a barbarian or ranger.

It is pretty silly that my ranged fighter who has improved critical pierce and my battle bard who also is pierce specced are so much better on the trash mobs in SOS and Prey. On the red names on the other hand I do quite well and often keep aggro because I can spam my fighter haste boosts and do some real damage. I can't wait until next mod going to open a can of red name whoop a... On trash mobs its not even worth fighting in a sense with the w/p differential.

Edit: this is what I would call poor dungeon design. A slash specced character should do the same as a pierce specced character.

My paladin is a khopesh s/b tank build; reavers quests drove me crazy when it came out, since my job was to run around mobs to the boss and help tank/dps him becuase I couldn't do jack **** else.

When I got the resources, I bought a w/p dagger and swapped my imp crit to pierce (min2 khopesh, so why not?) - it was revelatory, just zeal+haste s/b swingspeed (120 swing/min) was enough to hold my own, take care of mobs etc in prey and sos.


I recently invested in a w/p rapier; instead of staying even with most other characters, I'm now pretty consistently dominating the killcount; without evasion, I can throw on my firestorm greaves and resist ring, get my reflex to 32, and zerg through the fire section of sos without taking too much damage because everything dies in 7 swings.

As cool as it is, its also completely, utterly, 100% ********.

Its primarily a problem with sos in my opinion; a good prey run involves about 12 kills so its not nearly such a big deal there.

[Impaqt]

I'm with you. Is w/p broken? I must have missed something? AFAIK it's working as intended.

Is it working as the devs implemented it in game? Yes.

Is it anywhere near PnP? No.

Is this discepency the root of the issue? IMO, Yes, it is.

[Boldrin]

This "Solution" only breaks more things to cover up the underlying issue.

The real problem is that W/P is nowhere near PnP. the right way to fix it would be to drastically reduce its effectivness. Not make more less powerful mobs to kill.

How many 2 or 3 MILLION Hp monsters do you fight in PnP??? NONE!!!!

[Junts]

Is it working as the devs implemented it in game? Yes.

Is it anywhere near PnP? No.

Is this discepency the root of the issue? IMO, Yes, it is.

I do think stat (and con) damage shoudl remain a viable method to effectiveness for certain kinds of support melee (bards, some rogues, etc) and should not be nerfed into complete uselessness; what would be appropriate is a change such that con damaging a mob to death took roughly 45-65% longer than it presently does, and dpsing the mob to death took about 25% as long as it does now; dps tanks would then kill things somewhat faster, but support melee would possess the ability to somewhat effectively (ie, at all) deal with trash mobs by themselves, without gaining the according ability to be siginificantly impactful for red/purple named dps situations.

This is ideal, imo: my bard should want to use a w/p rapier and be pretty effective using it to help dispose of random mobs, and then become vastly inferior to any sort of real combat build when it comes to dealing with the big guy.

Removing the ability for any trash mob control via con damage relegates a huge host of support melee types into useless melee types; vorpal, imo, an undesirable alternative as it does not require any feat investment, teamplay coordination, and is almost entirely dependant on luck. As a method of trash mob control, w/p is one that should be more rewarded than 'buy a +1 vorpal ls', just not one that is so clearly superior for tank toons that should be able to take that **** down in a few vicious blows from the waraxe.

[Impaqt]

How many 2 or 3 MILLION Hp monsters do you fight in PnP??? NONE!!!!

the Million+ HP Raid bosses have nothing to do with W/P though. Thats another thread entirely.

Most trash mobs sit under 25k (5-10k probobly the most common) and no, I still dont fight 25k HP Renders in PnP, but thats a huge difference compared to Arritrikos or Sorjek.

[maddmatt70]

My paladin is a khopesh s/b tank build; reavers quests drove me crazy when it came out, since my job was to run around mobs to the boss and help tank/dps him becuase I couldn't do jack **** else.

When I got the resources, I bought a w/p dagger and swapped my imp crit to pierce (min2 khopesh, so why not?) - it was revelatory, just zeal+haste s/b swingspeed (120 swing/min) was enough to hold my own, take care of mobs etc in prey and sos.


I recently invested in a w/p rapier; instead of staying even with most other characters, I'm now pretty consistently dominating the killcount; without evasion, I can throw on my firestorm greaves and resist ring, get my reflex to 32, and zerg through the fire section of sos without taking too much damage because everything dies in 7 swings.

As cool as it is, its also completely, utterly, 100% ********.

Its primarily a problem with sos in my opinion; a good prey run involves about 12 kills so its not nearly such a big deal there.

I agree with you prey is not as much about killing trash anyway its SOS that is horrid. I have the w/p stuff on my ranged fighter so I have been on the opposite end of the spectrum on a few SOS runs where I just annihilated the slash specced characters and really just about everybody I ran with. It really is dumb why pierce specced characters are so much better and this contributes to why people hate grinding SOS. I have thought about picking up improved crit pierce on Norg and have the resources to make the trades for w/p gear that isn't rr (Norg doesn't have umd), but we sit too close to next mod in my opinion to make a major investment in w/p.

[maddmatt70]

I do think stat (and con) damage shoudl remain a viable method to effectiveness for certain kinds of support melee (bards, some rogues, etc) and should not be nerfed into complete uselessness; what would be appropriate is a change such that con damaging a mob to death took roughly 45-65% longer than it presently does, and dpsing the mob to death took about 25% as long as it does now; dps tanks would then kill things somewhat faster, but support melee would possess the ability to somewhat effectively (ie, at all) deal with trash mobs by themselves, without gaining the according ability to be siginificantly impactful for red/purple named dps situations.

This is ideal, imo: my bard should want to use a w/p rapier and be pretty effective using it to help dispose of random mobs, and then become vastly inferior to any sort of real combat build when it comes to dealing with the big guy.

Removing the ability for any trash mob control via con damage relegates a huge host of support melee types into useless melee types; vorpal, imo, an undesirable alternative as it does not require any feat investment, teamplay coordination, and is almost entirely dependant on luck. As a method of trash mob control, w/p is one that should be more rewarded than 'buy a +1 vorpal ls', just not one that is so clearly superior for tank toons that should be able to take that **** down in a few vicious blows from the waraxe.

No disagreement that stat damage has its place, but why the heck should some elf or drow with their natural weapons be so much better then a dwarf with his/her natural weapon. Why the heck should my dwarf have to use some crappy rapiers? All the dwarves are shaking their fists at you Turbine literally.

[Junts]

No disagreement that stat damage has its place, but why the heck should some elf or drow with their natural weapons be so much better then a dwarf with his/her natural weapon. Why the heck should my dwarf have to use some crappy rapiers? All the dwarves are shaking their fists at you Turbine literally.

I agree with you completely; I was just responding to Impaqt in that I hope they don't nerf w/p so badly that it stops being viable for support melee; the progression of the game has already made banishing/etc rather irrelevant and it would be a sad state to see it reach the point where support melee for bard/cleric/non dps rogue builds became 'vorpal it', and w/p is pretty much the only thing standing between that right now.

I think its interesting in how many more situations my bard resorts to w/p than my paladin (who still uses it a lot) - bard even uses w/p when doing twilight forge (con damage is the best way to kill ogre magi before they vanish..and is faster than dpsing ogres with his +5 holy greensteel/3 cha rapier.

For the pally, the con damage > dps line is found in the subterrane/rwtd, like most melee builds.

[Dracolich]

Is it working as the devs implemented it in game? Yes.

Is it anywhere near PnP? No.

Is this discepency the root of the issue? IMO, Yes, it is.

I tell you what, if they "do" do anything to WoP weapons they better fix the Khopesh to match its PnP stats. I dont want to hear anything about a Falcata either, I looked up the Falcata and it is shaped more like a giant Kukri then a Curved Khopesh. So please if they change one weapon prefix/suffix they better plan on fixing other things as well.(sorry to bring up the Khopesh I hate dragging that thing up but every time somone says something about PnP rules I have to)

[redoubt]

No disagreement that stat damage has its place, but why the heck should some elf or drow with their natural weapons be so much better then a dwarf with his/her natural weapon. Why the heck should my dwarf have to use some crappy rapiers? All the dwarves are shaking their fists at you Turbine literally.

Becasue dwarves are lame and drow rule???

Lol. Seriously though, can we not have a place where pierce is best, a place where bludgeon is best and a place where slash is best? Is this not why we have those to begin with?

Dwarves ruled the roost a few mods ago (and I'm not sure they still don't). Would it be horrible for some other race to be better in a particular mod?

[maddmatt70]

Becasue dwarves are lame and drow rule???

Lol. Seriously though, can we not have a place where pierce is best, a place where bludgeon is best and a place where slash is best? Is this not why we have those to begin with?

Well if that were the case the scoreboard is something like pierce 85 slash 18 bludgeon 0.. In D&D they are equal for the most part or at least more equal.

[redoubt]

Well if that were the case the scoreboard is something like pierce 85 slash 18 bludgeon 0.. In D&D they are equal for the most part or at least more equal.

Are you saying that 84% of the mobs in the game are have DR agains slash and bludgeon? Meaning only pierce bypasses their DR?

And that 16% of of the mobs have DR agains pierce and bludgeon?

And that none of the mobs in the game require bludgeon to bypass DR?

If you want true dps you go slash and not pierce in this game, so that seems contrary to me. Sure a few people use heavy picks, but most go slashing. Slashing is also the only way to get vorpal.

[Dracolich]

Also last time I checked DPS is the only way to kill bosses. I dont know why all the fear of some upcoming WoP hit no comments from any dev have eluded to anything.