The Arguments for Character Respec

[bobbryan2]

I cannot support a respec system without knowing what it involves...
Any full respec (incuding all class levels, alignment, skills, and stat points) I just cant support.... regardless of the cost...

If I were to support a respec it would have to be done RIGHT, for the game's sake, not just done the easiest way to code to please the vocal respec croud that are demanding this before the next mod.

By right i mean:
if you only want to respec feats.. just respec feats...
if you only want to respec enhancements.. just respec enhancements..
if you only want to respec skills... just respec skills...
if you want to respec 1 level... just respec 1 level...
if you want to respec alignment.. just respec alignment..

The first 2 already exist in the game... and due to timers, allow a gradual respec in a non game breaking way.

Any half-asked, easy to code respec feature to please powergamers who want an optimal build should not even be on the table.

What about if I want to respec my 14 fighter/2 rogue so that he's a 1 rogue/14 fighter/1 rogue. How's your "right" respec gonna do that without starting over? Your suggestions are a logistical nightmare. (mainly for deleveling and skills)

[bobbryan2]

You did not read it correctly.

stress down more starting to like the forums now

Someone's having fun tonight.

[Monkey_Archer]

What about if I want to respec my 14 fighter/2 rogue so that he's a 1 rogue/14 fighter/1 rogue. How's your "right" respec gonna do that without starting over? Your suggestions are a logistical nightmare. (mainly for deleveling and skills)

1 rogue/14 fighter/1 rogue??

1 monk/14 fighter/ 1 rogue is what you meant perhaps?

if you want to respec 1 level... just respec 1 level...

Or do yoiu mean you took level 15&16 as rogue and you want to change level 1 instead of 15 to rogue?

Same as swapping low level feats..... You change to a 1r/13f/2r.... wait out your timer then go to 1r/14f/1r.

The same inconvenience exists if your want to swap out a feat you took at level 1 for a feat that requires a higher level..... such as toughness for IC: piercing

[Borror0]

1 rogue/14 fighter/1 rogue??

1 monk/14 fighter/ 1 rogue is what you meant perhaps?

He meant that the order at which you took you levels mattered.

[Monkey_Archer]

I'm sorry, I have to ask.

Can you please post the link to the demand that the respec should be done before the next mod?

Ok, demand may be a strong word...
But its implied anytime changes in mod 9 are used as a reason why respec shold be considered now. (why do you think the fighter capstone thread got derailed?)

[Monkey_Archer]

He meant that the order at which you took you levels mattered.

to clarify the 2nd part of the above post...
If turbine does not keep track of which points were spent where at which level, your skill points would be reset, much the same as enhacements are reset if you swap out a feat like toughness or Spring attack and you have enhancements that depend on it.

[bobbryan2]

to clarify the 2nd part of the above post...
If turbine does not keep track of which points were spent where at which level, your skill points would be reset, much the same as enhacements are reset if you swap out a feat like toughness or Spring attack and you have enhancements that depend on it.

How would resetting skill points help?

[Monkey_Archer]

How would resetting skill points help?

How does a 14/2 differ from a 1/14/1?

[bobbryan2]

How does a 14/2 differ from a 1/14/1?

You get 4 times the skill points at level one?

So instead of 8 skill points, you'd get 32 if you took rogue first.

Not to mention BAB progression and whether or not you can take spellcasting feats. If you wanted weapon finnesse at 1, you'd have to take fighter first... if you want empower, you'd have to take a spell casting class... otherwise, you'll want to take the class with the most skill points at 1.

[Monkey_Archer]

You get 4 times the skill points at level one?

So instead of 8 skill points, you'd get 32 if you took rogue first.

Not to mention BAB progression and whether or not you can take spellcasting feats. If you wanted weapon finnesse at 1, you'd have to take fighter first... if you want empower, you'd have to take a spell casting class... otherwise, you'll want to take the class with the most skill points at 1.

So by chaging lvl 1 fighter to lvl 1 rogue and resetting your skill points, you would get to spend the extras.

Edit: If you took finesse at level 1 fighter you would lose it, untill you chaged out your level 15 rogue to fighter.

[Borror0]

You get 4 times the skill points at level one?

Not only that. If you take your levels later, you may not be able to cap as many skills (forced to waste skill points in skill you desire less because you're limited at [character level +3]/2 because it's a cross class).

[RazorrX]

DDO (and D&D actually) already has a full respec system, it is called Rerolling.

Looking at the reasons for wishing character respec as posted on page 1:

Various errors were made during DDO's design.
To fix those errors, DDO developers have to change feats, spells, enhancements, etc. in a way that may harm characters, directly or indirectly.

Now there is a feat respec in game right now, there is also a enhancement one and Sorcs get to change spells. Those are all based on Turbine changed things, so we have to be able to fix things.

Players value the continuous improvement of their characters and may quit if their characters are harmed.

Neither a new race nor class would render the existing character "harmed" thus race and class do not need to be respeced by this arguement.

If respecs were possible, then characters could change to follow changed game rules.

Now there is a feat respec in game right now, there is also a enhancement one and Sorcs get to change spells. Those are all based on Turbine changed things, so we have to be able to fix things. The only thing that would change beyond this is skills. While your skills may not be the best, they do not break the game for the majority of players (just love that blanket statement that people use to justify what they want as needing it for a 'majority' of people).

Players would not feel their character was harmed and not cancel their subscription.

Again, there already is in place a means to respec what rule changes would do to harm the character (minus skills) so the only reason to leave is because you want to leave.

Therefore, respecs would increase player retention.

Since we already have respecing for what game rules would change, all players should be happy and stay then.

Changing Race, class, stats, etc. = reroll, it was not something Turbine did it is now personal preference. The fact that there is a new race in no way made your existing race character suddenly ineffective, maybe not as attractive to you, but it did not make the character suddenly not able to do what he did the day before the new mod. Same for a new class, it did not fundamentally change your existing class.

Wanting to change your race, class, stats, skills, etc. is a reroll, it is a totally different character.

What I hear the respec people saying is that they want a whole new character but with all the gear, etc. Understandable, as some of that gear is very hard to come by. Heck, some of us have horrible luck getting the cool gear, so yeah, I fully understand not wanting to lose it. BUT that is the price you pay for making the new super character that makes you feel warm and fuzzy again.

But then the arguement is that: 'Hey I am willing to start at level 1 again, that is fair.'

Actually, no, it is not. You ate a +3 int tome (as an example) and now have a new level 1 Rogue - You get more WAAAY more skill points than any starting character ever could. That is not fair. So to make it fair we would need to strip any tomes eaten. Is that still okay for Respecing? Or you have it so that you can only go back to level 2, is that okay? That prevents the unfairness in skill points from starting, but would preclude you from changing your base class.

Certain things should not be changed after you create your character: Stat redsitribution, Race, Base Class.

IF you are going to start at level 1 again, re roll.

Hey there is a new super race I want to be one of those! Reroll and play him up.

Hey there is a new super cool class and I want to be one of those! Reroll and level it up.

In D&D they had retrain because the party would be say level 8 or 9 and you wanted to change, so you could retrain and stay equal to the group. DDO always has level 1 and up quests, etc. so there is no need to 'retrain' you just join that new level 1 group and go.

If you want something totally different, reroll and level it up.

[Tanka]

DDO (and D&D actually) already has a full respec system, it is called Rerolling.

We've pointed out many times that the PHB2 adds retraining and rebuilding options to the game.

I'd suggest you familiarize yourself before stating falsehoods.

[Cinwulf]

...Since we already have respecing for what game rules would change, all players should be happy and stay then... edited for length

for the most part this is accurate, but there were/are still instances where the developers changed the rules or added rules, and even continue to add/change rules, that were not made at the time that affected one's character. A few examples off the top of my head:

1) evasion in heavy armor
2) Human versatility
3) the enhancement system
4) shot on the run required to shoot while moving

there is currently no means to correct these other than a re-roll, which to many is unacceptable. That is where a respec would be a great compensation.

[Aspenor]

DDO (and D&D actually) already has a full respec system, it is called Rerolling.

DnD also has another form of respec, called "print out a new character sheet and relevel up to where we are now."

[Hafeal]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS][COLOR=yellow][COLOR=yellow]DDO (and D&D actually) already has a full respec system, it is called Rerolling.
Wanting to change your race, class, stats, skills, etc. is a reroll, it is a totally different character.

Well, perhaps a little harsh. DDO clearly knew they had to provide some respec mechanisms (feats, enhancements and spells as you point out) because of the evolution of the game. So, a precedent has been set to allow respecs in some aspects of the game.

Wanting to change your race, class, stats, skills, etc. is a reroll, it is a totally different character.

I agree to a large extent - race and alignment for sure. I could see some scenario where class respecs should be allowed, the problem being how do you stop exploitation?

Skills NEED a respec. They have been no less subject to change in this game than feats and enhancements and the devs have changed their emphasis on them since onset. The issue here is with tomes or I truly beleive the devs would already have this in place.

[Borror0]

I agree to a large extent - race and alignment for sure.

Alignment? Never changed your character's alignment in a PnP game, ever?

Alignment is, in my eyes, the least controversial topic.

[Aspenor]

Alignment? Never changed your character's alignment in a PnP game, ever?

Alignment is, in my eyes, the least controversial topic.

alignment, by far, should be the least controversial topic.

base stats and race would be questionable.

everything after that should be fair game.

[feynman]

I agree to a large extent - race and alignment for sure. I could see some scenario where class respecs should be allowed, the problem being how do you stop exploitation?

What's wrong with alignment respec? Talk about something absolutely supported by the rules; I can see why you wouldn't want race respec, but there's no excuse for not allowing alignment.

Again, of course, the disclaimer: I support free, complete respec of everything, whenever you want

[bobbryan2]

alignment, by far, should be the least controversial topic.

base stats and race would be questionable.

everything after that should be fair game.

I wouldn't even be against base stats... although I'll admit I even have pause at race. In the end... I'd rather do some different things with my fighter this time around, and I'd totally switch him from dwarf to human... but that being said... I could just reroll him too.

In a list from least to most controversial, I'd go...

alignment
skills
class levels
race/gender/appearance

Race etc, makes a lot more sense under some sort of retiring or reincarnation than it does a respecialization.