The Arguments for Character Respec

[bobbryan2]

Ok, maybe im missing something here....
How do you do a full respec without redoing your skills?

You are missing something.

The difficulty is in doing skills alone. When you do the whole package, it becomes much easier.

Is it easier to rebuild an alternator when it goes bad, or just buy a new alternator?

Think about it like this? Would it be easier to figure out how many skill points to take away for each level? which level came first? Which skills were class skills at that point? Etc

Or... Put you back on the character screen and let you level up normally.

[bobbryan2]

For you.

No...

Once again, a skill respec would not be able to fix the accidental level up in the wrong class.

That would make it insufficient. For everyone, not just him.

[Ryss]

For you.

Yes.
For some no respec is needed at all. For some alignment respec is. For other people some other kind of respec is needed. And for some a full respec is needed. So, what is the problem?

[Monkey_Archer]

You are missing something.

The difficulty is in doing skills alone. When you do the whole package, it becomes much easier.

Is it easier to rebuild an alternator when it goes bad, or just buy a new alternator?

Think about it like this? Would it be easier to figure out how many skill points to take away for each level? which level came first? Which skills were class skills at that point? Etc

Or... Put you back on the character screen and let you level up normally.

Then why not call it what it is... a reroll...

I dont think turbine has any intention of transfering bound items and favor to rerolls.

[Quanefel]

No...

Once again, a skill respec would not be able to fix the accidental level up in the wrong class.

That would make it insufficient. For everyone, not just him.

Some players might want to just change out skills. You are saying it is less sufficient for him than if he was to change out his levels instead? What if someone wanted to change out their alignment? Now we are to respec back fully just for one small change? Seems a bit insufficient to me.

[Mhykke]

Then why not call it what it is... a reroll...

I dont think turbine has any intention of transfering bound items and favor to rerolls.

And that's a problem, considering a lot of people aren't willing to reroll a character they put effort in, especially if the desire for changing something on that character stems from something that turbine changes or adds to the game. You create dissatisfaction in players. That's a problem where the business is one of pure entertainment.

[Aspenor]

Very good, it is not what you said. It was my words, a question I asked. Maybe you need to read closer next time to tell the difference between you stating something and me asking a question on my own?

Dictate? You all are using the most EXTREME words and examples to describe something that is very simple. A GM decides on a list of books, rules and his campaign he runs. Players agree to them, maybe ask for something more if they can and when decided on they begin to play. Rules are not irrelevant. Rules are only irrelevant to a player who is not a team player, someone who just came into the group to mess around. Not actually play.

Force to suck it up? Another extreme. No one is forcing anyone to terms that you agreed to prior to joining a group to play. If a player flat out refuses to follow the rules then they know where the door is. If a player wants to ask nicely, politely...that is not unreasonable. You seem to make it that a GM is "forcing" players to play a certian way.

The fact is, no good GM is just going to look the other way or have no say in how you "rework" your character. A DM will want to keep balance where he can. Where is the balance if a player just out of the blue for whatever reasons he wants....completely changes his character into something it was not? Why is the fun of the rest of the players trumped by that one player wanting his character changed out because he decided for himself to do it?

Classic. First paragraph he admits that he deliberately misquoted me. You didn't ask a question you made a statement and put a question mark at the end. Big difference.

Then, in the next few paragraphs (which I am freakin' amazed I could read, for once) he goes on a rant about stuff NOBODY EVER SAID.

There's no point to having a discussion with you, Q. You insist on playing the victim, misleading, and completely making up things.

So what if the level 15 fighter decides he wants to retire, and the player wants to roll up a wizard instead (especially since at level 15, there's no reason to play anything but a full spellcaster of some type). It's a game, and if you think you can tell people what they can and cannot play, you have control issues. If you can't balance a game, even if people are throwing DMM-cheese at you, then you don't have any business behind the DM screen.

[Monkey_Archer]

And that's a problem, considering a lot of people aren't willing to reroll a character they put effort in, especially if the desire for changing something on that character stems from something that turbine changes or adds to the game. You create dissatisfaction in players. That's a problem where the business is one of pure entertainment.

Exactly.

-Rerolls that allow you to transfer bound items and such dont work because people dont want to have to level up again.
-Allowing people to respec all classes and keep all their items, favor, and XP doesnt work either as it creates the game breaking problem of polymorphism. (Hmm today ill be a sorc, tommorow i might try ranger... oh you need a cleric? hold on ill respec.)
-Partial Respecing (changing a couple levels you dont want anymore) is extremely complicated and would require a skill/alignment respec mechanism.

Which is why you have to start with a rocket

[Quanefel]

he goes on a rant about stuff NOBODY EVER SAID.

I know I will be "ranting" by responding to you but in case you did not understand this, people use their own words to respond to people and because....."nobody ever said" something(a word, a phrase, a sentence) he is using to respond with, it is not called a rant. It is called a response.


If what you are saying is true then this would be classified as a rant because....no one ever said that....

So what if the level 15 fighter decides he wants to retire, and the player wants to roll up a wizard instead (especially since at level 15, there's no reason to play anything but a full spellcaster of some type). It's a game, and if you think you can tell people what they can and cannot play, you have control issues. If you can't balance a game, even if people are throwing DMM-cheese at you, then you don't have any business behind the DM screen.

Yours response is a response but the response of other people is called a "rant". Good to know.

[Mhykke]

.

-Rerolls that allow you to transfer bound items and such dont work because people dont want to have to level up again.

No, you're leaving something out. People don't want to level up again if they have to start from scratch. People on the pro respec side are willing to accept costs associated with a respec. Releveling could be a cost. If I wanted to change a character, I would not delete a character that I put in a lot of effort into, in order to create a similar character and start from scratch. I would be willing to respec that character if he kept his favor and gear, and he started at level 1. I'd be gaining a benefit in keeping my effort, and I'd be releveling. Releveling would be much more palatable b/c I received a benefit for my cost.

.-Allowing people to respec all classes and keep all their items, favor, and XP doesnt work either as it creates the game breaking problem of polymorphism. (Hmm today ill be a sorc, tommorow i might try ranger... oh you need a cleric? hold on ill respec.)

I'm not sure if you're too familiar with DDO if you're using this argument. You do realize that the gear that one shoots for as a sorc is completely and totally different than the gear one shoots for as a ranger, or a cleric, right? So the benefit of a respec (keeping gear), is completely irrelevant if someone were to completely change from a sorc to a ranger or cleric. B/c it is irrelevant, it is highly unlikely that someone would be swapping from ranger to sorc to cleric to barb.

-Partial Respecing (changing a couple levels you dont want anymore) is extremely complicated and would require a skill/alignment respec mechanism.

I think this has been explained to you, but if not, here it is again: DDO does not record when you eat a tome, for example. Let's say I eat a +2 int tome at level 5. At that point, I get an extra skill point a level. But let's say, at level 6, I want to erase my last 2 levels and go back to level 4. This is a problem, b/c DDO doesn't keep the information that you ate that +2 int tome at level 5. Furthermore, this problem is compounded if, let's say at level 5 you were a rogue, and level 6 you were a cleric. You get a different number of skill points for each of those classes, and DDO doesn't record that you got x number of skill points at 5, and x number at 6. It is very complicated for the game to go through all your decisions level by level to change them.

So the argument that starting from level 1 is easier makes sense. You simply start from level 1, and the game does not have to worry about recalling when you ate tomes, or what skill points you received when.

[Hafeal]

This is intriguing to me and has been from day 1 - what if you could NOT earn favor from all the houses but favor rose and fall depending on the quests you ran?

You could in no way do it when the game started due to small content but as the content grows and evolves it would be fun to see something more complex and dynamic if they ever do a favor re-haul.

Fluffy, now I understand exactly where yo uare coming form, and I completely agree with you... to ap oint. In PnP a characters actions have actual consequences on the story itself. But in DDO, this is simply not true. There is simply no reward or penalty, or any type of consequence for doing anything in game in terms of the story beging told. If there was, than if you killed Velah before me and looted her treasure trove, there would be no reason for me to enter the raid. If I kill all the "heretics" in the Church and the Cult quest, there is no alignment penalty or any other kind of social consequence for killing "innocent" people.

While I do can favor with one group for completing a quest, I do not lose favor with any other group, who may be diametrically apposed to them. IE, even if groups A and B are sworn enemies in the "story" helping A does not hurt me with B.

In short, a character's deeds in DDO simply do not "truly" matter and there is no real need to balance this rule and the paragraph you are refering to against the needs of the story being told.

[Grenfell]

OK, here's an arguement...

That by adding a full re spec mechanism in the game, it may make it too easy to reach clear superiority and therefore would cause many to play out the game at a much faster rate therefore causing less player retention........

At last, a rational anti-respec argument! Kudos to you Smatt.

This at least deserves a response, because this concern is grounded in some truth.

In theory, I could have a three-year old character who has every +3 tome, every piece of raidloot, and so on. Say he's a 8p/4f/4rog or some such who finds that there is no way he can be competitive after Mod 9.

With respec, I can remake this 'every piece of raidloot under the sun' character to some uber 18p/2rog or a 20p that withstands the changes. Then, since I already have all the tomes and all of the raidloot, I run thru the content in Mod 9 then end up bored after acquiring everything I can in Mod 9.

Then I quit, bored with everything.

This is, in theory, possible.

However, I have to ask how likely this is. People run capped characters today all the time. What they don't run are "bank toons" that used to be playable, but are not today for one reason or another.

People DO reroll. I do it all the time. But at the end of the day, FORCING someone to reroll and run content they don't want to is not exactly providing a compelling reason to stay. And I'm not even talking about doing Stormcleave again for the 924th time; I'm talking about farming Titan for yet another Chattering Ring, or VOD for the **** goggles, or 72 Large Ingredients to replace the shroud weapons and items.

I don't mind running those -- I enjoy them even. I just think it's a different thing when you're being forced to run those because the guy you really want to play is no longer viable due to changes in the game that were not, could not, be anticipated.

I believe that MMO players are no different than any other human -- they respond to incentives. The current incentives are setup in such a way to strongly discourage "investment" into any one character. It ain't about "nerfproof pure builds" vs. "fancy multi-class builds". 20 Fighters are going to get screwed hard if Mod 12 features a whole bunch of 900pt Chain Lightning throwing mobs.

So Borror has summarized the pro-respec arguments rather succinctly; and as yet, I have seen no real good summary of anti-respec arguments in a clear, cogent manner -- even anticipating some of the counter-arguments.

I would be interested in reading such a summary of the anti-respec arguments personally.

/gren

[Monkey_Archer]

No, you're leaving something out. People don't want to level up again if they have to start from scratch. People on the pro respec side are willing to accept costs associated with a respec. Releveling could be a cost. If I wanted to change a character, I would not delete a character that I put in a lot of effort into, in order to create a similar character and start from scratch. I would be willing to respec that character if he kept his favor and gear, and he started at level 1. I'd be gaining a benefit in keeping my effort, and I'd be releveling. Releveling would be much more palatable b/c I received a benefit for my cost.

That is basically what i meant. This method removes that whole "casual gamers want this" argument made by some. And creates a game balance problem of running a character using equipment you couldnt possibly have at your current level, like +3 tomes and min level 11 shroud items. (Im sure you want to keep those right?)

I'm not sure if you're too familiar with DDO if you're using this argument. You do realize that the gear that one shoots for as a sorc is completely and totally different than the gear one shoots for as a ranger, or a cleric, right? So the benefit of a respec (keeping gear), is completely irrelevant if someone were to completely change from a sorc to a ranger or cleric. B/c it is irrelevant, it is highly unlikely that someone would be swapping from ranger to sorc to cleric to barb.

Yes, one shoots for a certain set of gear in the current system. And will usually put raid items up for roll if they dont need them. A respec like this would change all that, and have a negative impact on the game.

I think this has been explained to you, but if not, here it is again: DDO does not record when you eat a tome, for example. Let's say I eat a +2 int tome at level 5. At that point, I get an extra skill point a level. But let's say, at level 6, I want to erase my last 2 levels and go back to level 4. This is a problem, b/c DDO doesn't keep the information that you ate that +2 int tome at level 5. Furthermore, this problem is compounded if, let's say at level 5 you were a rogue, and level 6 you were a cleric. You get a different number of skill points for each of those classes, and DDO doesn't record that you got x number of skill points at 5, and x number at 6. It is very complicated for the game to go through all your decisions level by level to change them.

Which is why i said this method is "extremely complicated". Not that a couple extra skill points given to some1 who didnt know enough to eat an int tome earlier is any more game altering then the first 2 options...

[Mhykke]

That is basically what i meant. This method removes that whole "casual gamers want this" argument made by some. And creates a game balance problem of running a character using equipment you couldnt possibly have at your current level, like +3 tomes and min level 11 shroud items. (Im sure you want to keep those right?)

It removes the casual gamer argument? Really? In order for that to be true, we'd have to assume that casuals have absolutely no gear whatsoever. I'm assuming by casual we mean a guy that might have eaten 1 tome at some point, or who has won maybe 1 or 2 pieces of raid gear, maybe even taken a shroud weapon or item to the 2nd altar (heck, or just even created a blank for it). Why does it remove the casual gamer argument? Wouldn't it be as painful, or maybe in some cases, even more painful, for the casual gamer to erase raid loot considering he probably doesn't grind raids 5 or 6+ times a night? Let's say a casual gets lucky and pulls or wins a pretty decent piece of raid loot, let's say the madstone boots. Wouldn't it be pretty painful for that casual to delete and reroll that character, considering he might not be on every 3 days specifically to grind and run the reaver? A powergamer, on the other hand, would think nothing of it, he'll just take 20 min. and run the reaver over and over every 3 days, no big deal.

As for the equipment you "couldn't possibly have at your level"...you do realize that all equipment besides those tomes has a minimum level on it, correct? So one would not be running through waterworks on their level 2 with a mineral 2 greataxe, as the greataxe has a minimum level on it.

As for tomes, yes, you're correct, people would be keeping their tomes. But this is hardly game unbalancing. These people have run this content with their low levels already. An extra point or 2 or 3 to one or more stats isn't going to drastically alter the game. Let's go extreme, and say someone has eaten a +3 str and con tome, and respecced, and now is level 1. Let's also say that the tome took their stats from an odd stat to an even, so they get 2 mod points. So, let's say a con of 13 was turned into a 16. That's 2 hit points per level. At level 2, that's an extra 4 hit points. At level 5, it's an extra 10 hit points. Let's say str went from 17-20. An extra 2 to hit and damage. Nice? Sure. Game unblancing? Hardly. These people are going to go through these low levels anyway, an extra couple of points here and there isn't going to drastically alter the game balance.

Yes, one shoots for a certain set of gear in the current system. And will usually put raid items up for roll if they dont need them. A respec like this would change all that, and have a negative impact on the game..

I think I know what you're getting at, but would appreciate you explaining just to be clear.

[Monkey_Archer]

It removes the casual gamer argument? Really? In order for that to be true, we'd have to assume that casuals have absolutely no gear whatsoever. I'm assuming by casual we mean a guy that might have eaten 1 tome at some point, or who has won maybe 1 or 2 pieces of raid gear, maybe even taken a shroud weapon or item to the 2nd altar (heck, or just even created a blank for it). Why does it remove the casual gamer argument? Wouldn't it be as painful, or maybe in some cases, even more painful, for the casual gamer to erase raid loot considering he probably doesn't grind raids 5 or 6+ times a night? Let's say a casual gets lucky and pulls or wins a pretty decent piece of raid loot, let's say the madstone boots. Wouldn't it be pretty painful for that casual to delete and reroll that character, considering he might not be on every 3 days specifically to grind and run the reaver? A powergamer, on the other hand, would think nothing of it, he'll just take 20 min. and run the reaver over and over every 3 days, no big deal.

Nothing to do with gear. A casual gamer would not want to re-level. Any gamer who is willing to re-level completely to fix a small build error is no longer a casual gamer.

As for the equipment you "couldn't possibly have at your level"...you do realize that all equipment besides those tomes has a minimum level on it, correct? So one would not be running through waterworks on their level 2 with a mineral 2 greataxe, as the greataxe has a minimum level on it.


As for tomes, yes, you're correct, people would be keeping their tomes. But this is hardly game unbalancing. These people have run this content with their low levels already. An extra point or 2 or 3 to one or more stats isn't going to drastically alter the game. Let's go extreme, and say someone has eaten a +3 str and con tome, and respecced, and now is level 1. Let's also say that the tome took their stats from an odd stat to an even, so they get 2 mod points. So, let's say a con of 13 was turned into a 16. That's 2 hit points per level. At level 2, that's an extra 4 hit points. At level 5, it's an extra 10 hit points. Let's say str went from 17-20. An extra 2 to hit and damage. Nice? Sure. Game unblancing? Hardly. These people are going to go through these low levels anyway, an extra couple of points here and there isn't going to drastically alter the game balance.

+3 int tome. Wasnt that the argument agaisnt a partial respec?

I know its been a while... But i think we lose more players because they feel that they dont make any contribution to a group at low levels, and find the game stupid when they enter a quest and minutes later they're lost and the quest finishes... You can call them noobs.. turbine calls them customers

I think I know what you're getting at, but would appreciate you explaining just to be clear.

I have 8 capped toons, 2 getting there. I have given away / put up for roll many items i didnt need, but could have used as a different class. If we allowed full respecs of all levels without limit, there would be no reason to have more then 1 character running as you could just respec any time you want to try a new class. People would get bored with the game faster.

Some of us have time to run 20/40/60+ completions of any raid we want gear from, but i know many people that dont.... Just think about a casual gamer watching some fighter pull the lorriks shield from hound because they might want to play cleric sometime.

[smatt]

At last, a rational anti-respec argument! Kudos to you Smatt.

This at least deserves a response, because this concern is grounded in some truth.

In theory, I could have a three-year old character who has every +3 tome, every piece of raidloot, and so on. Say he's a 8p/4f/4rog or some such who finds that there is no way he can be competitive after Mod 9.

With respec, I can remake this 'every piece of raidloot under the sun' character to some uber 18p/2rog or a 20p that withstands the changes. Then, since I already have all the tomes and all of the raidloot, I run thru the content in Mod 9 then end up bored after acquiring everything I can in Mod 9.

Then I quit, bored with everything.

This is, in theory, possible.

However, I have to ask how likely this is. People run capped characters today all the time. What they don't run are "bank toons" that used to be playable, but are not today for one reason or another.

People DO reroll. I do it all the time. But at the end of the day, FORCING someone to reroll and run content they don't want to is not exactly providing a compelling reason to stay. And I'm not even talking about doing Stormcleave again for the 924th time; I'm talking about farming Titan for yet another Chattering Ring, or VOD for the **** goggles, or 72 Large Ingredients to replace the shroud weapons and items.

I don't mind running those -- I enjoy them even. I just think it's a different thing when you're being forced to run those because the guy you really want to play is no longer viable due to changes in the game that were not, could not, be anticipated.

I believe that MMO players are no different than any other human -- they respond to incentives. The current incentives are setup in such a way to strongly discourage "investment" into any one character. It ain't about "nerfproof pure builds" vs. "fancy multi-class builds". 20 Fighters are going to get screwed hard if Mod 12 features a whole bunch of 900pt Chain Lightning throwing mobs.

So Borror has summarized the pro-respec arguments rather succinctly; and as yet, I have seen no real good summary of anti-respec arguments in a clear, cogent manner -- even anticipating some of the counter-arguments.

I would be interested in reading such a summary of the anti-respec arguments personally.

/gren

Well the kciker here Gren is that none of us can say for sure how the player base would react long term to full respec.... I know I can't I can onyl guess how it would affect me... I have long time gimp darned near every usable raid loot item in the game save for a couple not yet attained Abbot items. Every +3 tome except a wisdom... I realyl need that +1 to will save... And everything else.... A repsec would make him pretty bad arsed I think...

But I think the peopel sayign that this would surely be a good thing for DDo as a whole and not jsut for them personally are a bit short sighted and to closed minded aqobut the bigger picture. Hopw many things have peopel stomped the ground for in DDO, they put them in and nothign realyl happens to the player base good or bad? I'd say at least a few..... Couldn't hurt to try it, or could it.....

I still don't think it's all that great of an idea after readin far to many repetive posts about it from a VERY small group of people that are contributing about 95% of the posts to these threads. But again, it's not a big deal to me either way.... I'm not swinging the doom bat if they do or don't..... There should be some finality within a players decisions when building a toon... That I do believe makes DDO different from the likes of WoW and many other MMO's... And more of a challenge, and therefore for at least a good number of people at least somewhat of a challenge...

[Mhykke]

Nothing to do with gear. A casual gamer would not want to re-level. Any gamer who is willing to re-level completely to fix a small build error is no longer a casual gamer. .

Well, we're back to arguing mechanics of how to implement it, and what a cost could be. I realize that this hurts the casual gamer more, and am open to what other suggestions are out there. Personally, I think a long timer might be some sort of best compromise, as everyone is more or less treated equally if they were prevented from respeccing for a certain period of time. My suggestion was releveling as a cost, but that was just one suggestion.

+3 int tome. Wasnt that the argument agaisnt a partial respec?.

Not sure what you mean here. Yes, a problem with partial respec is the issue of how to treat tome usage b/c the game doesn't record when you ate that tome. By starting from lvl 1, the game doesn't worry about when you ate the tome, it simply does what it does now, records that you ate that tome. So you'd gain skill points this way, true, but again, I don't think it breaks the game.

I know its been a while... But i think we lose more players because they feel that they dont make any contribution to a group at low levels, and find the game stupid when they enter a quest and minutes later they're lost and the quest finishes... You can call them noobs.. turbine calls them customers

I agree that people would be turned off by finding themselves grouped with zergers at low levels. I think this is diminished by the fact that a lot of zergers don't really post LFMs for random groups at low levels, either when they roll a new character, or if in a game with a respec, when respeccing a new character. That isn't to say it doesn't happen, but it doesn't happen with every group out there. A respec doesn't "hurt" this situation. Think about the alternative. No respec now, so what happens? Either that zerger rolls a new character and zergs through low level content anyway, or that zerger doesn't reroll a new character b/c he doesn't want to lose the effort he put into his currect character.

I have 8 capped toons, 2 getting there. I have given away / put up for roll many items i didnt need, but could have used as a different class. If we allowed full respecs of all levels without limit, there would be no reason to have more then 1 character running as you could just respec any time you want to try a new class. People would get bored with the game faster.

Some of us have time to run 20/40/60+ completions of any raid we want gear from, but i know many people that dont.... Just think about a casual gamer watching some fighter pull the lorriks shield from hound because they might want to play cleric sometime.

This is another situation that can be solved through the mechancis of a respec. I agree that it's theoretically possible for this to happen, but you have to ask how likely this is. Sure, a person could simply run 1 character, and collect all the loot they get on that one character, so they can try every class in the game on that 1 character. But what if the respec timer were 6 months? How likely is it that someone who has a capped barbarian, that enjoys that barb, would respec to a cleric, get on a 6 month timer, for a class they might not enjoy? Don't you think it's much more likely that they would actually use one of their other 9 character slots to build a character radically different than the one they have now?

Could respecs be used for people to completely alter characters into completely new classes? Sure. But I think that people would be using respecs to make adjustments to current characters, rather than starting with completely new concepts. I don't think too many people out there think to themselves "I want to build a dps melee class" only later on think "I wish this character was a pure healbot". It's just so radically different that people wouldn't be "adjusting" that character, they'd rather use a character slot for a character that's completely different.

[FluffyCalico]

3) Not true because if turbine changes the rules in the middle of the game, that is not the player's responsibility. A free respec token each mod should be acceptable.

Lets check this idea real quick by making a couple assumptions
As I am not on the beta invite server so I can not say for sure and that is why I said assumptions as they are very popular rumors that noone is willing to confirm at this time.

1) Mod 9 brings half-orc as rumored
2) 2500 favor unlocks it as rumored
3) Full respec is implemented with said token
4) 2 min after mod 9 releases you have 500 level 17 fully decked out in raid/crafted gear half orc barbs because they respeced their race to the new one

Do you honestly think it's turbines idea that everytime they relase a new class or race to have people have precolleted all that new characters xp and gear and in 2 min poof fully capped geared new race/class?

[FluffyCalico]

Then why not call it what it is... a reroll...

I dont think turbine has any intention of transfering bound items and favor to rerolls.

exactly nor should they.

[Mhykke]

4) 2 min after mod 9 releases you have 500 level 17 fully decked out in raid/crafted gear half orc barbs because they respeced their race to the new one

Again, this is a mechanics issue.

Make those respecs start at level 1, and now people have an option...do they explore the lvl 17-20 content? Or do they go back to level 1 b/c they wanted a respec to half orc.

And this, of course, ignores that some barbs may not want to respec to half orc (wf powerattack, dwarven axe enhancements, human extra feats).

So this is a mechanics issue. Not an issue against adding respecs, in general.