The Arguments for Character Respec

[FluffyCalico]

Hint:

That's called a respec.

I understand your fears about total respec functions... but the reality is that there will be a ton of different scenarios that your proposed solution wouldn't fix. DDO's character customization is THAT complex.

Complex customization lends itself to needing a more flexible respeccing system than DDO currently has.

Hint:no that is called I was drunk and have 72hrs to figure out what I did while I was drunk. It was aimed to solve 2 issues. 1 the I was drunk when i did it. and oops I went to the wrong trainer and hit yes instead of no. That is all it was amied at and yes it solves both of those 100% for all future occourances.

[Mhykke]

Hint:no that is called I was drunk and have 72hrs to figure out what I did while I was drunk. It was aimed to solve 2 issues. 1 the I was drunk when i did it. and oops I went to the wrong trainer and hit yes instead of no. That is all it was amied at and yes it solves both of those 100% for all future occourances.

Let's play a little game. Let's say Turbine introduces this 72 hour timer. There's 2 options for turbine to name it. Which do you think is more likely they call it:

1. Respec

or

2. I was drunk and have 72 hours to figure out what I did while I was drunk system

[Quanefel]

Serious question, how old are you? 14, maybe 15?

This paragraph demonstrates a serious lack of understanding of, well, a lot really.

Their business is entertainment. Every company's job is to make money (hopefully profit if not a npo). If you happen to actually be older and have a real job (or know someone that does), when someone asks what business you're in, do you say "I'm in the business of making money off consumers by having them buy my product and or service"?

Entertained and entertainment are not the same. The fact that you got those confused is not all that suprising. We are talking about what they do, not what they are. Learn the difference and stop confusing things.

[Quanefel]

Fine point, but do you have an example of that?

Well it is not the MMO's fault, it still concerns them. While the player is to blame, it is in the MMO's interest to be forgiving.

You're arguing semantics. The point is that whether or not we are entertain affects their business.

Therefore, it is in their interest to keep us 'happy'.

You want me to give you an example of...an example I already gave you? It was WoW talents I was talking about.

I am sure a great deal concerns them and it might very well be in their interest to be forgiving. In my mind, Turbine has. They have offered us 3 individual types of respec's AND have hinted at giving us more, sometime in the future. Like I wrote earlier, most of those MMO's that do offer at least one type pales in the forgiving nature of what Turbine has offered us and has hinted at offering us later. Other MMO's should be jealous of what Turbine offers us in terms of respec's compared to theirs.

Us being entertained or not might effect their business in some ways but the fact is, it is not always in their best interest to keep us "happy". Customers sometimes have no clue what they want, they usually think they know but not always what it really it is. A business also should avoid giving their customers every demand they want also. If they do give in every time, they will be run out of business. I owned a business once, I know how customers can be. Very demanding and wanting things more than what they think they should pay. A customer might not always like it but when does it end? If every customer makes their demands, they will want more the next time until you have no business left.

It goes back to DDO not giving us what we want all the time. Imagine if every single player demanded an idividual request and they give it to them. Do you think Turbine would be in business long? No. Trust me, they won't. They have to strike a delicate balance of what they can do vs what it is their customers what. Not always easy with some of the players you see in the forums!

[Quanefel]

Lol, you're splitting hairs, and it is laughable. You said This is false on its face, as they're in the entertainment business. Their business, by definition, is to entertain they're customers (to keep them entertained).

The fact you confuse this is not surprising, and makes it look like you're closer to 14 rather than 15.

They do not keep us entertained, they sell/make a product that keeps us entertained.

Keep attempting to insult me, someday it might actually work. Maybe. Probably not.

[Borror0]

It was WoW talents I was talking about.

Oh really? then maybe you should read more on the topic?

[...] it is not always in their best interest to keep us "happy".

I was obviously referring to reasonable request. If they can easily avoid angering the players, they should.

[FluffyCalico]

Oh really? then maybe you should read more on the topic?

I was obviously referring to reasonable request. If they can easily avoid angering the players, they should.

1) They have already said it is not simple or easy to do
2) What makes you happy can anger others
3) While partial respec might be reasonable full respec at no serious cost is not reasonable to many and would anger many

[Borror0]

They have already said it is not simple or easy to do

Irrelevant to whether or not it is a reasonable request.

full respec at no serious cost

Straw man, and I am not even going to bother telling you why.

[FluffyCalico]

Irrelevant to whether or not it is a reasonable request.

.

Very relivent.

How much time and resouces must be devoted vs how many it would please and anger is everything.

Why you ask? Because they don't have the manpower to do everything. Every min they spend doing this is a min they can't spend doing something else.

[Borror0]

How much time and resouces must be devoted vs how many it would please and anger is everything.

/facepalm

A time-consuming change can be worth it.

[smatt]

Ok, if that's your main point (and I don't see it as the problem you do, but let's assume it's a problem) then make respec have a 12 month timer.

Problem solved?



Well, one consequence could also be that they actually stick around to play their newly respecced character, rather than simply leaving the game b/c they don't feel like starting over. And like I mentioned above, a long enough timer solves the "respeccing for the best for the current mod", correct? Or, if, when respeccing, one had to gain all his xp again, he'd have to relevel that character all the way back up to 20...again, it keeps that person playing the game, paying his subscription fees.

Really, I don't see anything as a "problem"....... more of a consequince. I guess the way I think about DDO isnt' in line with say Bor's. I see it more as a game where you adapt to what comes at you. You dont' always need to perfect toon for everything, you make it work. It's kind of like the peopel that create new toons for one top level raid or quest, when it's been worked out. Just not my game, and that's all good, everybody has their fun in different ways,. What I realyl see with this Respec idea is as others said, and easy button. And that's OK, I just thnk it's a cheap way to be uber. There should be some finality ion your decision making when creating a build, that's part fo the learning process I like about DDO. It may hold it back a bit from other "Easier MMO's, and it might also create an even smaller initial player niche for it. But I think it's also part of what the core fanbase stays around for. This si why the high power items that are bound don't bother me. A particular ton has to earn that item, it's much harder to take the idea toon in and get that item to pass to another not so idea toon.


You've offered up a couple things that would seem to make it a bit less of a just respec wave the magic wand and suddenly I have a completely different toon that earned all those items through their skills and abilites. I offered up a few others way back in a thread months ago, that were mroe along the lines of it being a one time per toon thing, or perhaps somekind of permanent penalty to the toon. But on the face that would defeat the purpose of it, and that's to make this game more like the others. If we wan't DDO to be like allt he other MMO's we can much further to WoW it and just get it over with.

I don't persnally know how successful from a financial aspect that DDO is. While I constantly consider the business aspects around my thinking of why the implement some things it's hard to gauge. I'm sure though that they'd love to have more players, as I would. But not at the cost or ruining the game in the long run, and losing the unique parts of the game that does in fact draw the people that are here to it.

[Quanefel]

Oh really? then maybe you should read more on the topic?

I was obviously referring to reasonable request. If they can easily avoid angering the players, they should.

....And that shows what I was referring too. Cool?


A reasonable request can be suggested. That does not mean a reasonable suggestion should be done or would be given to us. They are not going to give us every request because it falls under your requirements of "being reasonable" because it would avoid us being angery at them. And what kind of logic is that anyways?

If they can easily avoid having us angery at them, any or all "reasonable" requests should be granted to us? Is that a new reason why they should have a full respec, to avoid having their players angry at them? That makes it sound more like a demand than a simple request.

Turbine in the end will decide if any request is reasonable, not a player. A player can have their own opinion that a request is reasonable and it remains that players opinion, not fact.

[linuxhippie]

For me it is rather simple. I knew nothing about D&D prior to starting this game. I played with a friend from work joined a small guild and had a wonderful time. Then the level cap increased from 10. Then new prestige stuff, etc etc. I've got a few characters of different class some pure, some multi, and a ton of bound items across all of them.

I don't have time to re-roll characters to this level. I made mistakes in creation (I'm sure I'm not alone here) and knowing what I do now I would luv to have a way (premium or otherwise) to go back and fix things (ie skill points distro or ability point distro) and keep my current character and all her bound items.

The "why" seems really ridiculous to discuss. The "What" and the "How" are important to me. I "play" this game. I can't go back in real life and fix mistakes (or cast spells for that matter) so having that ability to do that in this game is very appealing to me.

I hope turbine will allow some method of respec. It would keep me and others I know more involved in the game and possibly bring people back that I know left for this very reason.

Krellin
Drow RG
blindfaith
Sarlona

[Hafeal]

Why do you think it is OK for someone to trade Improved Trip for Power Attack or Greater Shout for Polar Ray, but not Evasion for Weapon Of Good?

Well, my thought was because feats and enhancements have been added, removed and changed since the game inception. I draw a fundamental difference between feats and enhancement v. new classes. As for spells, casters can find and learn new spells in a game of exploration.

To me, feats, enhancements, skills and spells can blend into the storyline of your character and them learning new things and giving up old - just like many of us do in our real life jobs. I can cross the cognitive leap there so to speak.

Is there any justification for allowing respec for some of those things but not others, either by D&D rules or DDO gameplay consequences?

No, I think it is purely opinion. I just am of the mind, for the time being, that you made your alignment and race - that IS your character, stick with it. If you want to train them in a new skill set so be it. I like bobbyran2's point about a mistake on classes and I think I could be persuaded to that. I know some new players who went to the wizard trainer instead of sorc by mistake and I have had occasion to know some drunken fools to do something foolish. As this is a game and not the judicial system I see no reason to "punish" people for such mistakes.

It [edit: bound and raid loot] really is a respec issue. Respec is about characters, and bound loot is attached to the character almost like a part of her.

For me, I think it is a side issue, the more important facet are feats, enhancements, skills and, I will go along with, classes.

If you get these changes, the "raid or bound" loot issue goes away because people will be able to keep their stuff along with their new and improved character!

[bobbryan2]

Yes I did answer your question.

"What other MMO has an analagous situation to this:"<------Not a question.
"Is there an analagous situation in any MMO?"<----That IS a question.

*Smack*

Analagous to what exactly? A person making a mistake on their on accord is still the problem of that player, not any MMO. A person not planning something out, is their fault. If a person does not research something, it is their fault. If an MMO makes a big mistake, yes that is the fault of the MMO. I can agree with that. I will not agree with players always wanting to blame DDO for their own mistakes that could have been avoided. Not all mistakes are the fault of DDO.

Yes we should feel lucky we have more respec options than others. It is not ignorant either. If you have $50 in your hand but get anger and toss the money away because you do not have $100 in your hand, that IS ignorant. Who goes through life only looking at what they don't have and not what they do have? Not me.

And how do you even know that those other games with their respec's is sufficient enough for their players. They are human beings and I have no doubt that they want more or think they want more than the respec options they have. Look at DDO. Even with the respec's we have, is it enough? Will it ever be enough? No. No matter what people are given they will always desire more. People demanded more character slots. They got them. Do you think that debate will ever really be over? No. People will still demand more since that is human nature.

For the record, I think both of those are questions.

Secondly.... It IS ignorant to think we should be lucky for DDO's respecs if they're insufficient compared to every other MMO out there. How do we know they're insufficient? Because there is not another analogous situation that you can name.

Again... I didn't ask who's fault it is. You're going down that path either due to poor reading comprehension or because you're scared of where my question will actually lead.

I, instead, asked if there's an analagous situation. Where a character can permanently break his character with a few misclicks and not have a way to fix it.

What other MMO has that situation?

[Quanefel]

For me it is rather simple. I knew nothing about D&D prior to starting this game. I played with a friend from work joined a small guild and had a wonderful time. Then the level cap increased from 10. Then new prestige stuff, etc etc. I've got a few characters of different class some pure, some multi, and a ton of bound items across all of them.

I don't have time to re-roll characters to this level. I made mistakes in creation (I'm sure I'm not alone here) and knowing what I do now I would luv to have a way (premium or otherwise) to go back and fix things (ie skill points distro or ability point distro) and keep my current character and all her bound items.

The "why" seems really ridiculous to discuss. The "What" and the "How" are important to me. I "play" this game. I can't go back in real life and fix mistakes (or cast spells for that matter) so having that ability to do that in this game is very appealing to me.

I hope turbine will allow some method of respec. It would keep me and others I know more involved in the game and possibly bring people back that I know left for this very reason.

Krellin
Drow RG
blindfaith
Sarlona

Do you have more than one character? I ask because you say you do not have time to reroll a character to that level. Does that mean you do not have time to level up more than one character in the same amount of time?

[Aspenor]

I disagree with everything Borror has said, mostly just out of principle.

Oh...wait....we're talking about respecs?

Nevermind. Carry on.

[Borror0]

I disagree with everything Borror has said, mostly just out of principle.

Working hard to keep your title?

[Borror0]

....And that shows what I was referring too. Cool?

That shows that everythnig past level 1 can be respec'd, like I said.

[Fenrisulven6]

Keep attempting to insult me, someday it might actually work. Maybe. Probably not.

Gee, I'm actually pro-respec now, and willing to discuss the issue, but then I see the pro side is back to sliming and bullying people like Quanefel for not agreeing with them.

So I'm gonna go with: anything more on respecs is a waste of time & energy until we get feedback from Turbine. So go raid something.

Everything that can said has been said. Hundreds of pages in the forums. You're only going to tick each other off, and for no good reason.