The Arguments for Character Respec

[Borror0]

What they are for is a limited amount of change to your character to address an important issue

And I shall ask you what a class respec is, in your opinion?

The point is that 'full respec' is a generic term to refer to multiple request all at once (as explain in the OP). We are not asking for major revamp of character at once, but the the ability to adapt to change. That means the ability to adapt if skills get changed (ie skill point respec), ability to change our alignment (ie alignment respec - which is totally supported by PnP rules), etc.

The only reason they are all put together is because we need them all and it is easier to ask for 'full character respec' than you list them all each and every single time. Accuracy is lost to prevent from making our sentences redundantly long.

[FluffyCalico]

And I shall ask you what a class respec is, in your opinion?

The point is that 'full respec' is a generic term to refer to multiple request all at once (as explain in the OP). We are not asking for major revamp of character at once, but the the ability to adapt to change. That means the ability to adapt if skills get changed (ie skill point respec), ability to change our alignment (ie alignment respec - which is totally supported by PnP rules), etc.

The only reason they are all put together is because we need them all and it is easier to ask for 'full character respec' than you list them all each and every single time. Accuracy is lost to prevent from making our sentences redundantly long.

The problem is you are ignoring that this little accuracy detail is the breaking point on the topic for many. If you ask for some respec very few are going to get upset. When you ask for full respec you set off all kinds of people. This may be no big differece to you but to those opposing the topic little vs complete makes all the difference in the world.
I think if you take the time to not let this specific part get lost in the details that 90%+ of your opposers will not oppose you

[Quanefel]

Quanefel, you are clever enough to know that is not true.

For example, if I was to say "The Earth is round because of the crushing empirical evidences supporting that theory" but that my actual argument was "The Earth is round because God told me", if I were to be totally honest, does it make the argument "The Earth is round because of the crushing empirical evidences supporting that theory" hold no weight?

Of course not.

Furthermore, debating my motivations is impossible. You may speculate about it but you cannot know of it. Trying to make my motivations part of the debate is simply an attempt at changing the topic to avoid better arguments, whether it is intentional or not.

My motivations cannot, and will not prove me wrong.

I think you're misunderstanding how we are using the PnP references.

We are not using it to validate our position, ever. The consensus is that 'being against PnP' is not a compelling argument on its own to flat out prove that respecs are a bad idea. However, not only is that argument not strong enough on its own, it is also false because PnP rules support the claims for respec.

We are not using it to validate our claim, though, as that 'being like this in PnP' is not a valid argument.

It is quite clear that your question was a rhetorical question, which is why I answered it in that manner.

Even if I am mistaken in that assumption, you've got your answer so please tell why are you making a fuss about this?

It is not true? Really? I was under the impression that both sides were to present facts, logic, truthful statements, etc but to you...as long as they make sense it is irrelevant of someone might be lying in debating?

Example: Turbine has already said they will never, ever have a full respec added to DDO. Therefore, there is to be no further discussion of the matter.

What don't believe me? Doesn't matter, it is irrelevant if I am might seem dishonest in my statement. Correct?


Debating motives is impossible? No. A person still can and they can speculate all they want about it, especially if the person who might be lying could have exposed his dishonest statements before. It is not always an attempt to avoid a topic. More than likely people are losing respect for the dishonest person and question if that person even is wanting to debate, rather than them just spewing forth garbage from their mouth.


No, I am not misunderstanding anything about people using D&D rules as a shield if those rules might look favorable to a full respec idea. They bring it up for the debate yet then distance themselves from it when it does not work for them. Much like you writing about us not being able to use it for this debate then go on to tell us how the P&P rules support the claims for a respec. All in basically the same sentence!

You claim you are not using them to validate your claims then you go on to claim they support your claims! Lovely.


That last statement is even better. I ask a question, you get defensive and accuse me of something I never did then have the gall to ask me why "I" am making a fuss about it? Maybe you should read what you write before you hit the Submit Replay button.

[smatt]

That is not true.

Here's you:


In case you still deny the content of your own words, here they are again: "That's what it's really about, isn't it? All this talk of player retention, it's not fair, etc, add nausiam is an end run around what it's really all about...... It simply is too much like a particular politcal parties propaganda lines, saying this when every knows it's a load.... "

In case you continue to deny it, what you were doing is claiming that Borror0 was lying about what the reasons for a respec are.

Um no I didn't specifaicalyl say that it was Borro was lying... How many are claiming this player retention stuff.. Seems I remember a rather few were, as well as have used the same justifications he is. Which is fine.... But I think a good number of them would also be respecing for the reason I stated. Which is fine as well..... I mean really how many peopel have been truly "nerfed" by the game as oppossed ot would truly benefit by goign to another class that's been enhanced..... I think the later could easily be seen as the more numerous. Telling me what I'm doing doesn't work , I know what I'm doing, although it maybe been worded in a way that would give soemone who wants to over analize everything the room to accuse me of hate, or neferous motives. And as I've said, I can respect everybodies opinion on this, I may not agree with them but I do respect them. I'm jsut not sure that everybody is really 100% honest about their own reason for it. I'm not picking on any one person here at all, it's a generalization.

So get off your accusatory high horse A_D. I may joke around and give a flipant remark ( a joke), like the one I gave to Mhyyke. But I respect Mhykke as someone who contributes to this game not only through game play but here on the forums as I do Borro, and many others in this and a good number of other gameplay/mechanics threads. A great deal of thought is put into a lot fo these disucssions, and some really good ides come out of them.

And as I've said I would greatly benefit from a respec, I just don't neccesarily agree that it would create any kind of a difference in player retention, and in fact COULD lead to more "nerfing" due to a sudden amount of capped, raid loot laden uber builds. Which would lead to even mroe ridiculous walk-thoughs of the upper level content. Either way..... Thos ethat want it want it for whatever reason and that's fine.. And those that don't don't and that's fine as well.

[bobbryan2]

I asked this question in another thread, and I'll ask it here.

What other MMO has an analagous situation to this:

A drunk player gets on at 4am, accidentally levels with the wrong trainer, and his character is now permanently broken.

Is there another MMO that offers absolutely no recourse to this solution? Where the player's only options are start over from scratch or deal with a permanently gimped character?

I'm not saying that we have to be like every other MMO out there... but I at least want to hear justification why it's a good thing for DDO to be unique in this situation, offering unparalleled character customization AND an inability to fix any poor decisions or accidents?

[FluffyCalico]

I asked this question in another thread, and I'll ask it here.

What other MMO has an analagous situation to this:

A drunk player gets on at 4am, accidentally levels with the wrong trainer, and his character is now permanently broken.

Is there another MMO that offers absolutely no recourse to this solution? Where the player's only options are start over from scratch or deal with a permanently gimped character?

I'm not saying that we have to be like every other MMO out there... but I at least want to hear justification why it's a good thing for DDO to be unique in this situation, offering unparalleled character customization AND an inability to fix any poor decisions or accidents?

Am am about against respec as you can get..But I would not be against allowing anytime someone levels 72hrs to change their mind and take something else instead. So long as they can't change there mind every 72 hrs forever.

[bobbryan2]

Am am about against respec as you can get..But I would not be against allowing anytime someone levels 72hrs to change their mind and take something else instead. So long as they can't change there mind every 72 hrs forever.

Hint:

That's called a respec.

I understand your fears about total respec functions... but the reality is that there will be a ton of different scenarios that your proposed solution wouldn't fix. DDO's character customization is THAT complex.

Complex customization lends itself to needing a more flexible respeccing system than DDO currently has.

[Quanefel]

I asked this question in another thread, and I'll ask it here.

What other MMO has an analagous situation to this:

A drunk player gets on at 4am, accidentally levels with the wrong trainer, and his character is now permanently broken.

Is there another MMO that offers absolutely no recourse to this solution? Where the player's only options are start over from scratch or deal with a permanently gimped character?

I'm not saying that we have to be like every other MMO out there... but I at least want to hear justification why it's a good thing for DDO to be unique in this situation, offering unparalleled character customization AND an inability to fix any poor decisions or accidents?

A drunk player doing something accidentally on his own accord to his character is not the fault of any MMO, nor are MMO's in the business to fix the real life problems of their players. When they do, let me know.

DDO is not unique in that regard. It is your opinion that DDO is the only one who offers "unparalleled" character customization. Does DDO offer more than maybe others out there, maybe so. It is hardly the qualifier for a full respec.

The inability to fix poor decisions or accidents? We can do that to a certain degree just like many other MMO's allow in their games. In fact more so. We have 3 different types of partial respecs where most only have one. We should feel lucky we have more than those other games instead of just looking at what we don't have.


Again, poor decisions or accidents by players is NOT the resposibilty of any MMO, it is not their business to fix our problems. What is DDO, a nanny state now? o.O

[bobbryan2]

A drunk player doing something accidentally on his own accord to his character is not the fault of any MMO, nor are MMO's in the business to fix the real life problems of their players. When they do, let me know.

DDO is not unique in that regard. It is your opinion that DDO is the only one who offers "unparalleled" character customization. Does DDO offer more than maybe others out there, maybe so. It is hardly the qualifier for a full respec.

The inability to fix poor decisions or accidents? We can do that to a certain degree just like many other MMO's allow in their games. In fact more so. We have 3 different types of partial respecs where most only have one. We should feel lucky we have more than those other games instead of just looking at what we don't have.


Again, poor decisions or accidents by players is NOT the resposibilty of any MMO, it is not their business to fix our problems. What is DDO, a nanny state now? o.O

That's not what I asked.

Again, answer the question.

Is there an analagous situation in any MMO? If not? Why should DDO be different in this? If we can't fix situations like the above, obviously we shouldn't feel 'lucky' we have what we have... that would be completely ignorant. Obviously other games should feel lucky that their respecs are sufficient, while DDO's are not.

[smatt]

Sorry for the confusion. My post didn't say you "were" doing anything. I was addressing this exchange:



I replied with:



We were discussing an example where you are responding to Bor. I was agreeing that if you don't want to argue a certain person's posts, or all of the points he makes in them, then don't. That's the first 2 sentences of the above quote.

But my next statement isn't saying that you are guilty of adding words in Borr's mouth. It simply says that the main point is one shouldn't add words simply to argue with those words. I used the word "you" b/c I was still sticking w/ the example of an exchange b/w you and Bor. I changed the "you" to "one" to be a bit clearer.

Edit:
And I had forgotten about your original post in this thread. While my response above wasn't directed at you personally, now that I go back to your original response, it can most definitely be applied to you. Your original response is exactly what I've been talking about. You accused Bor of "spinning" the argument. In the same post, you wished for a more honest argument. So yes, in fact, my request can directly be applied to "you." If you disagree with Bor, then disagree with what he's saying. Don't put words in his mouth, and say what the respec is "really" about. It's very easy if someone makes an argument, to simply say "your argument's really about X", and then proceed to argue against X. You're not arguing the person's points. You're simply arguing against your made up reasons. It is very tempting to do this though.

OK I can see where you're coming from, I guess the way I wrote it could be construed that I was saying that it's Borro spinning it. Although I do think that there is a bit of a spin in it, as most of the toons that would be respecced, IMO, would be ones that would benefit from he improvements in other classes NOT from the nerfing of their own. So do Borro's original reason in this thread, constitute spin directly from him? Not neccearily..... My fault....




[quote =Mhyyke] Hey, that's great that it's "ok to want to be uber." This doesn't address anything, b/c not many (none that I remember) argue that a reason behind a respec is in order for people to be uber.

You're distorting the argument of "one wants the ability to change his character b/c a game change/addition has altered that character in a way that the player did not expect and/or does not enjoy" to "one wants to be uber". Hardly. Is it difficult to imagine someone building their character not to be uber, but rather for flavor, and a change to the game alters a person's view of that character? [quote] Well, some people build just to build or are too new to the game. In fact I'd offer that the majority of people don't' use toon planners, and or don't plan a toon all the way to current cap, with all he current available equipment. I understand that SOME people builds have been hurt by the changes to a class, or race, or feat. But again I don't' think it's a reach or distortion to say that far more would use it simply to take hard earned bound items and tomes to the build of the Mod, because a particular class has become better than theirs. That's still my main point away from what Borro is saying.... Either way, people can want what they want for their own reasons. I can see why Borro would have the ideas he has, I don't think Borro or anybody else has a grand plan to take over the world......

Yes, you might be correct, if there was a way to reach "clear superiority" in game. But in reality, that doesn't exist. People build new characters all the time. If there was a "clearly superior" DPS build, for example, then those building a new character for DPS would all be doing the same thing. But in reality, they're not. Some are building rangers, some barbs, some fighters now with the fighter capstone, some paladins w/ knight of the chalice and the other additions to paladins. This isn't even considering multi class options available. The game is varied, and there's rarely a "clearly superior" way of doing something.

Well Yes and no Mhyyke, there surely are better and more popular builds say for DPS. There are those that build a lot, and with the upcoming changes, there are more options for what is the highest DPS, most self-sustaining builds, than there are currently. But as I said to A_D above, what would the consequences of a sudden influx of respecced tons with allo the raid loot, all he crafted items suddenly taking advantage of the new class abilities and feats. Ones they didn't have to at least partially plan for? Could that lead to the game becoming far easier to far more people, leading to quicker burn-out, and gasp less player retention than currently? I'd say it's at least equal to Borro's thoughts on it being a positive move for player retention.

It's often hard to discern exactly what people are trying to say on a BB.... You don't get the nuances of the spoken word, body, and facial expression. I'm sorry that I may come off as accusatory at times. I really meant no disrespect to Borro, yourself or other in this discussion.

[Borror0]

DDO is not unique in that regard.

It actually is. All decision taken pat level 1 can be respec'd in all successful MMO's.

Unless you are trying to present a situation where a player created a character of the wrong class, leveled him for a while and only then realized he created a character of the wrong class as an analogous situation, DDO is "unique in that regard".

poor decisions or accidents by players is NOT the resposibilty of any MMO, it is not their business to fix our problems.

You are right. It is not their business to fix our problems but rather our business to keep us entertained.

I don't think making a mistake enhance the gameplay of anyone.

[Mhykke]

But again I don't' think it's a reach or distortion to say that far more would use it simply to take hard earned bound items and tomes to the build of the Mod, because a particular class has become better than theirs. That's still my main point away from what Borro is saying

Ok, if that's your main point (and I don't see it as the problem you do, but let's assume it's a problem) then make respec have a 12 month timer.

Problem solved?

But as I said to A_D above, what would the consequences of a sudden influx of respecced tons with allo the raid loot, all he crafted items suddenly taking advantage of the new class abilities and feats. Ones they didn't have to at least partially plan for? Could that lead to the game becoming far easier to far more people, leading to quicker burn-out, and gasp less player retention than currently?

Well, one consequence could also be that they actually stick around to play their newly respecced character, rather than simply leaving the game b/c they don't feel like starting over. And like I mentioned above, a long enough timer solves the "respeccing for the best for the current mod", correct? Or, if, when respeccing, one had to gain all his xp again, he'd have to relevel that character all the way back up to 20...again, it keeps that person playing the game, paying his subscription fees.

[Borror0]

Ok, if that's your main point (and I don't see it as the problem you do, but let's assume it's a problem) then make respec have a 12 month timer.

Heck, even figure a way to insert a restriction. For example, preventing a character to respec more the equivalent of half his levels.
(That would be a better fix than such a long timer, as that timer would prevent players to adapt to many possible changes.)

[bobbryan2]

Again, poor decisions or accidents by players is NOT the resposibilty of any MMO, it is not their business to fix our problems. What is DDO, a nanny state now? o.O

Also, I thought I'd address this in a seperate question.

I never said it wasn't the player's fault, and I never said it was Turbine's responsibility.

I merely asked if there was an analogous situation. And if your answer to that question is no... then maybe you should stop and figure out why that is?

[bobbryan2]

Heck, even figure a way to insert a restriction. For example, preventing a character to respec more the equivalent of half his levels.

That gets dicey quickly, because of how intricate DDO's multiclass situation is.

Would it be the worst thing in the world to go from a

7 Fighter, 6 Barb, 3 rogue

to a

7 Fighter, 6 Paladin, 3 monk

It's very similar to each other... but would trip that restriction. FOTM builds are simply not a big enough worry to try to stop legitimate respecs.

[Quanefel]

That's not what I asked.

Again, answer the question.

Is there an analagous situation in any MMO? If not? Why should DDO be different in this? If we can't fix situations like the above, obviously we shouldn't feel 'lucky' we have what we have... that would be completely ignorant. Obviously other games should feel lucky that their respecs are sufficient, while DDO's are not.

Yes I did answer your question.

"What other MMO has an analagous situation to this:"<------Not a question.
"Is there an analagous situation in any MMO?"<----That IS a question.

*Smack*

Analagous to what exactly? A person making a mistake on their on accord is still the problem of that player, not any MMO. A person not planning something out, is their fault. If a person does not research something, it is their fault. If an MMO makes a big mistake, yes that is the fault of the MMO. I can agree with that. I will not agree with players always wanting to blame DDO for their own mistakes that could have been avoided. Not all mistakes are the fault of DDO.

Yes we should feel lucky we have more respec options than others. It is not ignorant either. If you have $50 in your hand but get anger and toss the money away because you do not have $100 in your hand, that IS ignorant. Who goes through life only looking at what they don't have and not what they do have? Not me.

And how do you even know that those other games with their respec's is sufficient enough for their players. They are human beings and I have no doubt that they want more or think they want more than the respec options they have. Look at DDO. Even with the respec's we have, is it enough? Will it ever be enough? No. No matter what people are given they will always desire more. People demanded more character slots. They got them. Do you think that debate will ever really be over? No. People will still demand more since that is human nature.

[Borror0]

A person making a mistake on their on accord is still the problem of that player, not any MMO.

Players unsubscribing, is a problem for any MMO.

[Quanefel]

It actually is. All decision taken pat level 1 can be respec'd in all successful MMO's.

Unless you are trying to present a situation where a player created a character of the wrong class, leveled him for a while and only then realized he created a character of the wrong class as an analogous situation, DDO is "unique in that regard".

You are right. It is not their business to fix our problems but rather our business to keep us entertained.

I don't think making a mistake enhance the gameplay of anyone.

Wrong. All decisions taken past level 1 can not respec'd out in all those MMO's. Each one if different in the details of how, when and what it is to be respecced. Some allow you to respec one part of your character that you chose at creation. Some allow you to change out one part at level 10, but just that one part.

DDO is still not "unique" in the regard of player making a mistake on picking the wrong class for x number of levels from creation. That is still not the fault of the MMO, that is a players fault. No one made him pick that class at start. The player did.

Now, this business issue. Sorry, but it is not their business to keep us entertained. It is their business to make money off us buying their product, using their service that they "think" would be entertaining for us. If we think it is entertaining, we will buy it. If we do not, we won't.

Making a mistake on something does not enhance the gameplay for anyone. I know.

[Mhykke]

Now, this business issue. Sorry, but it is not their business to keep us entertained. It is their business to make money off us buying their product, using their service that they "think" would be entertaining for us. If we think it is entertaining, we will buy it. If we do not, we won't.

Serious question, how old are you? 14, maybe 15?

This paragraph demonstrates a serious lack of understanding of, well, a lot really.

Their business is entertainment. Every company's job is to make money (hopefully profit if not a npo). If you happen to actually be older and have a real job (or know someone that does), when someone asks what business you're in, do you say "I'm in the business of making money off consumers by having them buy my product and or service"?

[Borror0]

Some allow you to change out one part at level 10, but just that one part.

Fine point, but do you have an example of that?

That is still not the fault of the MMO, that is a players fault. No one made him pick that class at start. The player did.

Well it is not the MMO's fault, it still concerns them. While the player is to blame, it is in the MMO's interest to be forgiving.

Now, this business issue. Sorry, but it is not their business to keep us entertained. It is their business to make money off us buying their product, using their service that they "think" would be entertaining for us. If we think it is entertaining, we will buy it. If we do not, we won't.

You're arguing semantics. The point is that whether or not we are entertain affects their business.

Therefore, it is in their interest to keep us 'happy'.