The Arguments for Character Respec

[KLBen]

I just want to be sure I understand what the mechanics of a respec would do:

I currently have a capped monk on Thelanis, the Devs make a change to my class (not exactly sure what that may be) where I would have to reroll my character if there were no Respec mechanism in place. A respec would essentially allow me to reroll my character without losing any XP or items, is that basicly the idea of a respec?

Thank you for your response.

[Borror0]

But he could always pay the theoretical cost of the non-free respec option (say, 20 dragonshards, or 1millpp, or W/E the devs decide it is).

Well, the non-free option would be in dollars as this was a reply to aphook's comment.

I would have much less problem with such a system if we would be talking about Premium Services.

Expiration dates prevent characters who don't want to respec due to a game change from gathering multiple tokens to be used later for other reasons.

Well, then would make sense to get one per module an have it expire at each update, no?

[Borror0]

A respec would essentially allow me to reroll my character without losing any XP or items, is that basicly the idea of a respec?

Basically, yes. Some do include an XP Cost (half of your XP, all your XP, etc.) but not all.

As for items, every respec allows you to keep your bound items. That is essentially one of the main motivation behind a respec.

[Quanefel]

Basically, yes. Some do include an XP Cost (half of your XP, all your XP, etc.) but not all.

As for items, every respec allows you to keep your bound items. That is essentially one of the main motivation behind a respec.

And here I thought one of the MAIN motivations behind a full character respec was because the Dev's change things and we have no way to adjust to them. Thanks for clearing up what one of the main reasons, really is about.

[Borror0]

And here I thought one of the MAIN motivations behind a full character respec was because the Dev's change things and we have no way to adjust to them.

Losing all your bound items is the main reason as to why rerolling is such a pain, is what I meant. There is obviously having to relevel your character at the way to level 16 but that is far less of a problem than it is to gather all your bound loot back.

If rerolling was not so annoying and time-consuming, respec'ing would not be such a necessity.

[Quanefel]

Sorry if you felt your input was not appreciated. This thread is intended for pro-respec and anti-respec to debate on whether or not character respec seems to be a good idea from our player point of view. So please explain your perspective and challenge my arguments all you want.

I'm looking forward to it.

Again, sorry about that. I'll try to reword that passage.

EDIT: Tried something. No idea if that sounds better to you. You can suggest a better wording if you want.

"And, to discredit the respec request one has to be able to refute both arguments."

Really? Did you even think that out before you wrote it. Practice what you preach. If you are going to make that statement then do what want us to do by that. Reword whatever you want, I will still find all the flaws in it. Not to spite you, I am sure you put alot of effort and time in it.

Yet, at some point you and others might want to understand that it is not that so many of us are all against a full respec idea, it could very well be that we do not like how some of you are going about it.

[Borror0]

Did you even think that out before you wrote it.

Could you explain to me what is so extraordinary about this claim?

It seems very basic to me that to discredit a position you have to be able to refute their arguments.

Yet, at some point you and others might want to understand that it is not that so many of us are all against a full respec idea, it could very well be that we do not like how some of you are going about it.

Not sure I understand the logic here, so please correct me if I am wrong but are you saying that it may be that some of the opponent to respecs are not actually against respecs but simply do not like... the way the arguments are presented so they undermine a position they agree with?

If I understand that, why would someone do that?

And why would that person never mention he is on their side? It would be an invaluable tool to know what exactly that person oppose (or so it seems to me).

[Quanefel]

Losing all your bound items is the main reason as to why rerolling is such a pain, is what I meant. There is obviously having to relevel your character at the way to level 16 but that is far less of a problem than it is to gather all your bound loot back.

If rerolling was not so annoying and time-consuming, respec'ing would not be such a necessity.

If people are so upset about items being lost, I can understand that. I can not agree with it but I can understand that. Yet, it should not be a main reason for wanting to respec. It shows more of greed than a desire to actually fix something that is claimed to be broke. I know, I am horrible for calling people greedy. It is just a fact of life that people are. I only point it out to maybe pull people away from at least the impression this is all about greed.

I can not see rerolling as that annoying or all that time-consuming. Releveling, yes. That might very well be true. I can understand that. Respecing will not change that aspect. It is not a stretch of the imagination that IF a full respec is put into place, that the Dev's will in fact require us to relevel. I am sure even you can see that. When people try to give others the impression that the dev's will allow us to push a button, respec AND be brought right back up to full level before we hit that button is setting people up for disappointment. That is my opinion and how I see it. Some might not like that but what, just pretend it is not a great possibility of having to relevel just to make people feel good in the short term? Again, it IS setting people up for disappointment. Stop it.

[smatt]

Well Borro you offer up a nice summary of what i see as the spin for respec.... But what oyu left out is that the majority of the people who're really in on thsi disscusion IMO, are longtime players who have known for a long time that DDO isn't a static game. That changes will come, some will benefit a build, some will turn a build into trash. BUT the real arguement FOR a respec seems to come mostly from people who want to keep the bound gear and stats, they worked hard for on a toon, and apply it to the uber toon of the Mod...... That's what it's really about, isn't it? All this talk of player retention, it's not fair, etc, add nausiam is an end run around what it's really all about...... It simply is too much like a particular politcal parties propaganda lines, saying this when every knows it's a load....

I think a more honest arguement for it would go a lot further, I spoke out against it when people were talking about it 6 months ago. And I still think, in overall game mechanics it would be a mistake, but at this point it's just a whatever for me, even though I would certainly benefit from it.

It's all good, those for and against no matter what the reason, even if it is one that's got more propaganda posters on it than an election is still and opinion that should be considered......

[shores11]

Once again, character respec discussions have taken over the forums, to the point of derailing an important thread for feedback.

It these discussions, it seems that there are a lot of misconceptions about the pro-respec arguments. For the proponents of character respec, it is quite irritating as it feels as if words were being put into our mouth. As for those against the implementation of a character respec, it weakens their positions because they are not addressing our arguments.

Hopefully, this thread will clarify our position and lead to more productive conversation.

Before I start explaining our argument, I think it may be worthwhile to define what is meant by "character respec".

Character respec is an expression used to simplify to gather multiple requests into one. The purpose of this word is to avoid making too heavy sentences each time one has to talk about all the request being made. Usually, in the context of DDO, it includes alignment respec, class respec, skill point respec and often race respec as well.

Whether or not these respec are offered all at once or if they are separated is unimportant (although the 'all at once' option seems to be less hard for turbine to code).

Aesthetic respecs are often included because the arguments from them are different than the ones for respec of things directly affecting gameplay but no one would complain if Turbine decided to kill two birds with one stone.

Please note that a request for respec makes no mention of the cost that will be used. Consensus is that we have to agree that really there is a problem before being able to discuss what is the best way to solve it. Possible costs are in-game money, XP and collectibles (Ã* la dragonshard). Respec as a Premium Service is often an excluded possibility because it does not address the problems that lead to requesting character respec in the first place.

Now that I have taken the time to explain what the request is, exactly, I'll proceed into explaining the two main reasons to ask for a character respec. The first argument being that character respec would increase character retention and the second argument being that character respec would allow game developers to change the game data more freely, thus leading to a better game.

The first argument can be summarized by the following syllogism:

1. Various errors were made during DDO's design.
2. To fix those errors, DDO developers have to change feats, spells, enhancements, etc. in a way that may harm characters, directly or indirectly.
3. Players value the continuous improvement of their characters and may quit if their characters are harmed.
4. If respecs were possible, then characters could change to follow changed game rules.
5. Players would not feel their character was harmed and not cancel their subscription.
6. Therefore, respecs would increase player retention.

As for the second argument, it can be described as follow:

1. Various errors were made during DDO's design.
2. Due to those errors, the game is not as good as it could be.
3. The developers are inhibited from fixing errors because some characters would be harmed, either directly or indirectly.
4. If respecs were possible, then characters could change to follow changed game rules.
5. The developers would have fewer worries when making a change, so more improvements would happen.
6. Therefore, respecs would make DDO better for everyone.

Both of these arguments illustrate that character respec requests have more to them than being a mere "I want it because I like it": there are benefits to their implementation other than just pleasing the players. And, to discredit the respec request one has to be able to refute both arguments.

Hopefully, that clarifies most misunderstandings.

Now, discuss!

Because you say one has to dis-credit both points in order to be valid is in itself not a valid point or stance as I do not recall reading your name in the book of "I make all things valid once I speak them".

It really comes down to some players want what they really do not want. Players that say they want all of these one click solutions to all of there gripes in DDO or any other MMO would be the very first ones to end up leaving the game for something else to play and gripe about because they are bored (Hey look at me I have everything uber in the game items, feats, skills now what do I do since all monsters die from just looking at me, this game is boring). Many of the proponents for respecs are also the same ones that want one click loot options for every quest/raid (after each run not the 20th run) as well or want 32 point builds without any effort at all to aquire them. You do not fool me or many other players.

In fact I submit the complete opposite point of view as you do. DDO knows exactly what they are doing and the game was never designed wrong and needed fixing. which does not imply that they should not or do not need to continue to develop the game to be fresh as possible to keep player attention. I submit that the DDO team see's many of these complaints from the less than 1% of its player base and picks the well made suggestions and/or complaints and alters the game play as needed. This does not mean it is broke it means they care about their product and continue to develop it. Something that may be a problem is something like the continued lag that haunts us all not the character customization.

I mean the real argument for respec's is to not have to quest for favor again and level again. I submit that this is DDO's way of saying run all of the various quests we have as options in the game and this is a great thing I think. I would submit that many of the players that say the game lacks content or hates favor questing has not ran over 60% of the games content and that my friends is a problem.

[Borror0]

It shows more of greed than a desire to actually fix something that is claimed to be broke. I know, I am horrible for calling people greedy. It is just a fact of life that people are. I only point it out to maybe pull people away from at least the impression this is all about greed.

Well, when designing a game you have to deal with players' psychology and if greed is a factor to them than it is.

It should not be used with a pejorative connotation.

Because you have to deal with player psychology, "greed" and fixing something broke go hand in hand. If you go against what the player wants, you're not going to make a profit out of them. If a situation irritates the players, whether you think they are greedy or not, you ought to consider fixing that. Otherwise, they may go see if the grass is greener elsewhere.

Personally, I don't think it is about greed. It's about achievement. It has nothnig to do with accumulating lots and lots of possession but rather improving the character. It,s not the frustration of losing virtual goods but rather the frustration to start over again as that loot is part of the character's improvement.

If you've played any console game, just think about how frustrating it is to die and having to start the level once from the start.

It is not a stretch of the imagination that IF a full respec is put into place, that the Dev's will in fact require us to relevel. I am sure even you can see that. When people try to give others the impression that the dev's will allow us to push a button, respec AND be brought right back up to full level before we hit that button is setting people up for disappointment..

Can I know reasoning?

[Quanefel]

Could you explain to me what is so extraordinary about this claim?

It seems very basic to me that to discredit a position you have to be able to refute their arguments.

Not sure I understand the logic here, so please correct me if I am wrong but are you saying that it may be that some of the opponent to respecs are not actually against respecs but simply do not like... the way the arguments are presented so they undermine a position they agree with?

If I understand that, why would someone do that?

And why would that person never mention he is on their side? It would be an invaluable tool to know what exactly that person oppose (or so it seems to me).

Pay attention to what you are writing. You ask us to refute your arguements as well as our own, yet you are not doing that yourself. Hence me telling you to practice what you preach. You want us to do that, you do it too. The do as I say, not as I do mentality does not go over so well with some people.

And yes, some people can agree with something yet total disagree with parts of the whole. Like the political parties here. They might agree the economy needs fixed but they greatly disagree on HOW it is to be fixed. Get it? It is very logical in my mind.

Why would a person never mention that? Maybe they have, yet the other side only seeing one way to go about it pushing the rest of us off to the side and our thoughts on the matter are dismissed time after time.

[Borror0]

Because you say one has to dis-credit both points in order to be valid is in itself not a valid point or stance

Of course not, but that is how a debate operates.

One makes one or many arguments and others have to refute them. That is how it works.

/snip

Why do you waste so much time flaming the opposite point of view? None of your attacks were warranted.

Maybe you want to stir up some... but if so, go do that elsewhere please.

DDO knows exactly what they are doing and the game was never designed wrong and needed fixing.

This is invalidated by them changing features because they were deemed too powerful.

Critical Rage II, Dwarven Toughness, Evasion and Human Versatility are the most known ones but there are others.

I mean the real argument for respec's is to not have to quest for favor again and level again.

Sorry, no, it isn't.

[Angelus_dead]

Personally, I don't think it is about greed. It's about achievement. It has nothnig to do with accumulating lots and lots of possession but rather improving the character. It,s not the frustration of losing virtual goods but rather the frustration to start over again as that loot is part of the character's improvement.

It's illuminating to compare that to a change in D&D 4e that was minor, yet controversial.

In D&D 3.5, Rangers got an animal companion, and if it died they could catch an equivalent new one within 24 hours. But in D&D 4e, Rangers have the ability to cast Raise Dead, but only on their pets.

That change reduces verisimilitude because it gives Rangers a spellcasting power more akin to clerics, but it improves role-playing and narrative because he keeps the same animal over time, instead of inexplicably training a new one whenver it's disposed of.

[Borror0]

Pay attention to what you are writing. You ask us to refute your arguements as well as our own

Not sure I am getting what you are saying...

They might agree the economy needs fixed but they greatly disagree on HOW it is to be fixed.

I could see that analogy being used as to "I agree that there is a need for respec but I disagree with you on how to implement one"

However, you have been arguing against the concept as a whole.

Maybe they have, yet the other side only seeing one way to go about it

Well, to be honest, this seems very inconsistent with you spending four hours (as per your words) collecting information to then be able to refute the argument that other MMO's offer the ability to respec all significant change that could be "invalidated" by rule change.

[kaidendager]

Sorry if you felt your input was not appreciated. This thread is intended for pro-respec and anti-respec to debate on whether or not character respec seems to be a good idea from our player point of view.

I can let a little argumentative masturbation go for awhile, we all do it. You've provided the easiest arguments against your own and knocked them down like a true champ. If you had said this is a thread where pro-respec people can congregate and congratulate eachother on how smart they think eachother is that'd be fine. But to say this is an open thread for debate when you attack anyone with an opposing viewpoint and set your own rules for how we should argue I've got a bit of a problem with it, particularly in light that you've built the opposing viewpoint in your own eyes and already demolished it.

And, to discredit the respec request one has to be able to refute both arguments.

Of course not, but that is how a debate operates.

While I cannot deny that isn't true in some respect it is also like saying playing DDO is just hitting keys on a keyboard really fast. It's true that refutation is an aspect of debate, but it hardly encompasses the entirety of debate.

Example: If I state that the war in Iraq is a good thing and we should continue it because of two points A) Killing people is a good thing and B) War is a natural part of the human psyche and stated that both are true unless both can be refuted I'd be laughed out of the forum. Saying that one must refute all arguments presented or not present his/her points is not very practical and not very conducive to a proactive debate.

It these discussions, it seems that there are a lot of misconceptions about the pro-respec arguments. For the proponents of character respec, it is quite irritating as it feels as if words were being put into our mouth.

This one I'm just requoting because I believe most people missed the juicy juicy irony.

[Elaril]

I still believe that there should be at least two forms of respec available. One should offer the option of keeping all of your xp and should be offered once per patch. The other should reset your character's xp to zero and should be unlimited in its use and should have a moderate in game cost.

[smatt]

While likely MOSt of the peopel I paly with, at least the ones that have been around for at least 2 years or more seem to be for repect, and some of them like me hae indeed been "nerfed" by changes to their current class. I'm betting that the vast majority of respects, if it was implemented would revolve around people changing TO classes/alignments/etc that have been improved, rather than changing away from classes/aligments/etc away nerfed classes. In other words they desperately want their old, raid loot/crafted/tomed toons to be uber using the changes to other classes. Which is fine......

[Mhykke]

BUT the real arguement FOR a respec seems to come mostly from people who want to keep the bound gear and stats, they worked hard for on a toon, and apply it to the uber toon of the Mod...... That's what it's really about, isn't it? All this talk of player retention, it's not fair, etc, add nausiam is an end run around what it's really all about......
I think a more honest arguement for it would go a lot further

Well, I know personally, if a respec option were magically inserted into the game tonight, I wouldn't use it tomorrow or any other time if the game remains exactly as is. I don't desire to change any of my characters. So I don't need to worry about keeping my bound gear or stats, b/c I won't be deleting/rerolling/respeccing anyone. I'm being honest when I explain there are multiple reasons, and not just 1. I'm trying to see the game from a variety of viewpoints, and not just my own. Maybe some others are as well, who knows. I know for me, a simple issue, and another reason, is basic fairness. Changes to the rules of a game midstream is unfair for its players. B/c this is a business, let's try to offset some of that unfairness so we can try and limit player loss b/c of that unfairness. I want DDO to succeed. In fact, I hope it's wildly successful. I don't want to see player loss, b/c I don't think DDO is in a position to afford player loss. Simply arguing "tough, that's life, reroll", shows a deep lack of understanding about the business consumer relationship, and what it could possibly mean for DDO.


In addition, this is one of the reasons why some of these anti respec folks are frustrating to discuss this with. They will avoid responding to what is said, and instead, they will question the motives behind the speaker. If the argument they are making is not logical, then discredit it. If they have an alternate reason they aren't sharing, it doesn't invalidate an argument if it makes sense. Personally, I love it when an anti respec person mindlessly falls back to the "it's for those multiclassers that just want to be even more uber!" line, as I'm pro respec and have 1 multiclass toon (only 1 splash class) out of 11. I also love the "easy button" go to line, as anyone that has grouped with me knows that I don't sit around waiting for the easiest situations in game before playing (amusingly, the same cannot be said of certain people who are using this line). Finally, I'm also amused at the "you built a gimp, reroll" etc. type argument. I have no desire to use a respec if one is implemented, in the current game. Furthermore, I believe all my characters are competent enough to survive the "gimp" accusation. Again, can the same be said of those using this line?

All of those are attacks on the motivation of the proponent, and don't address what's actually being said. The frustrating part is the person using these lines uses them frequently in situations in which they have no reply to what is actually being argued.

[smatt]

Well, I know personally, if a respec option were magically inserted into the game tonight, I wouldn't use it tomorrow or any other time if the game remains exactly as is. I don't desire to change any of my characters. So I don't need to worry about keeping my bound gear or stats, b/c I won't be deleting/rerolling/respeccing anyone. I'm being honest when I explain there are multiple reasons, and not just 1. I'm trying to see the game from a variety of viewpoints, and not just my own. Maybe some others are as well, who knows. I know for me, a simple issue, and another reason, is basic fairness. Changes to the rules of a game midstream is unfair for its players. B/c this is a business, let's try to offset some of that unfairness so we can try and limit player loss b/c of that unfairness. I want DDO to succeed. In fact, I hope it's wildly successful. I don't want to see player loss, b/c I don't think DDO is in a position to afford player loss. Simply arguing "tough, that's life, reroll", shows a deep lack of understanding about the business consumer relationship, and what it could possibly mean for DDO.


In addition, this is one of the reasons why some of these anti respec folks are frustrating to discuss this with. They will avoid responding to what is said, and instead, they will question the motives behind the speaker. If the argument they are making is not logical, then discredit it. If they have an alternate reason they aren't sharing, it doesn't invalidate an argument if it makes sense. Personally, I love it when an anti respec person mindlessly falls back to the "it's for those multiclassers that just want to be even more uber!" line, as I'm pro respec and have 1 multiclass toon (only 1 splash class) out of 11. I also love the "easy button" go to line, as anyone that has grouped with me knows that I don't sit around waiting for the easiest situations in game before playing (amusingly, the same cannot be said of certain people who are using this line). Finally, I'm also amused at the "you built a gimp, reroll" etc. type argument. I have no desire to use a respec if one is implemented, in the current game. Furthermore, I believe all my characters are competent enough to survive the "gimp" accusation. Again, can the same be said of those using this line?

All of those are attacks on the motivation of the proponent, and don't address what's actually being said. The frustrating part is the person using these lines uses them frequently in situations in which they have no reply to what is actually being argued.

Well Mhykke, I could go into agueing all day long about all the pro's and con's peopel ahve put forth. Kind of like politcal discussion I used to have on of all places a band/music board.... Many 1,000's of posts latter it got rather boring. I understand that some are of the opinion that a repc feature would on it's face create more of a chance of player retention. But really what would the long term, effect be? Can we say for sure what the unintended consequinces be? Reallky are that many people leaving simply because of a nerf to their build? Or because they have a bunch of toons that aren't the latest greatest because of addtions to the game? Or do people most often leave simpyl out of over all boredom witht eh game, which happens no mattter what Turbine does,e ven with new content.

I'm not attacking anybody at all..... But I think what I said in my posts in this thread IMO is very true.... Far more would use the repsec to go to classes that became BETTER than their current class, not because their class was nerfed directly. I'm simply offering that opinion, no matter if others see it as more or less correct than their own. I love this game, and of course want it to prosper, even if that would require them to do thigns I don't like or agree with personally. In the end I think my point is that just because a few dozen forum people who for the most part are very loyal DDO people who do in fact care aobut the game and offer a lot of good ideas up to improve it THINK and feranvtly argue a particular issue, doesn't mean that it's a good idea to run lock step with them. Or simply to go OK the few forum commons want it so it sahll be in other words.


I'm OK with it either way.... I just THINK that at least some who offer such long winded reasons why, really could shorten it all down a bit to one sentence..... "Some other build is more uber than my build, and I want to change my long worked on toon to that build"

That's my arguement... Im not going to get into long winded arguements with people who think they know how to run an MMO.... I have no idea personally, I won't ever spend millions to create, code, or market one..... I can only guess...... My lack of arguing every single point that say Borro brings up has nothing to do with me not being able to..... I could go on for days if I really cared to.... But I see it as a pointless endevour, I will continue to simply point out some things I'm observing just as you have.