The Arguments for Character Respec

[Borror0]

Once again, character respec discussions have taken over the forums, to the point of derailing an important thread for feedback.

It these discussions, it seems that there are a lot of misconceptions about the pro-respec arguments. For the proponents of character respec, it is quite irritating as it feels as if words were being put into our mouth. As for those against the implementation of a character respec, it weakens their positions because they are not addressing our arguments.

Hopefully, this thread will clarify our position and lead to more productive conversation.

Before I start explaining our argument, I think it may be worthwhile to define what is meant by "character respec".

Character respec is an expression used to simplify to gather multiple requests into one. The purpose of this word is to avoid making too heavy sentences each time one has to talk about all the request being made. Usually, in the context of DDO, it includes alignment respec, class respec, skill point respec and often race respec as well.

Whether or not these respec are offered all at once or if they are separated is unimportant (although the 'all at once' option seems to be less hard for turbine to code).

Aesthetic respecs are often included because the arguments from them are different than the ones for respec of things directly affecting gameplay but no one would complain if Turbine decided to kill two birds with one stone.

Please note that a request for respec makes no mention of the cost that will be used. Consensus is that we have to agree that really there is a problem before being able to discuss what is the best way to solve it. Possible costs are in-game money, XP and collectibles (Ã* la dragonshard). Respec as a Premium Service is often an excluded possibility because it does not address the problems that lead to requesting character respec in the first place.

Now that I have taken the time to explain what the request is, exactly, I'll proceed into explaining the two main reasons to ask for a character respec. The first argument being that character respec would increase character retention and the second argument being that character respec would allow game developers to change the game data more freely, thus leading to a better game.

The first argument can be summarized by the following syllogism:

1. Various errors were made during DDO's design.
2. To fix those errors, DDO developers have to change feats, spells, enhancements, etc. in a way that may harm characters, directly or indirectly.
3. Players value the continuous improvement of their characters and may quit if their characters are harmed.
4. If respecs were possible, then characters could change to follow changed game rules.
5. Players would not feel their character was harmed and not cancel their subscription.
6. Therefore, respecs would increase player retention.

As for the second argument, it can be described as follow:

1. Various errors were made during DDO's design.
2. Due to those errors, the game is not as good as it could be.
3. The developers are inhibited from fixing errors because some characters would be harmed, either directly or indirectly.
4. If respecs were possible, then characters could change to follow changed game rules.
5. The developers would have fewer worries when making a change, so more improvements would happen.
6. Therefore, respecs would make DDO better for everyone.

Both of these arguments illustrate that character respec requests have more to them than being a mere "I want it because I like it": there are benefits to their implementation other than just pleasing the players. And, to discredit the respec request one has to be able to refute both arguments.

Hopefully, that clarifies most misunderstandings.

Now, discuss!

[Borror0]

I'm going to take the time to refute the most common anti-respec arguments.

#1 - Necessary Grind

While what you are saying sounds nice, MMO's need grinds and without grind, a MMO will die. Thus, I believe that adding a character respec will lead to subscriber loss because players will get bored quicker by running out of things to do.

There are two problems with that argument.

First of all, it tries to paint grind as if it would be entirely positive and beneficial to a game when that is not the case. While 'grinding' has the benefit of keeping the player busy, it can also turn him away. In this case, 'grinding' is being 'forced' to start all over again and that is not something enjoyable.

Consider the following situation :

"All of Turbine's servers got hit with some malicious virus, wiping all of the character data, corrupting all the backups and thus forcing everyone in DDO to start over at level 1 with no favor nor gear."

...how many players do you think would renew their subscription? Very few.

At the risk of stating the obvious, a game is supposed to be fun. That's why humans tend to play games. It's very likely that one will cancel his subscription if he is not having fun anymore. And, for many people, feeling they have to start over again is enough to get them to quit.

Secondly, other MMO's currently offer what would translate into a character respec in DDO and yet they are more successful than DDO. If implementing respec would kill the game, it would have kill those games already.

#1.1 - Other MMO's don't have a class respec

You point out other MMO's as a proof that respec won't cause the death of the game but other MMO's don't offer class respec, while you are asking for it. Thus, your argument is invalid and your theory as not been tested.

While more popular games don't currently offer class respec, it is because it makes less sense for them than for us since those other games, like World of Warcraft, don't offer multiclassing. If they would, then they would most likely offer a class respec as well.

The logic used is:

1. All classes have spec worth playing.
2. Since characters can change everything but their class they will be able to spec into something balanced.
3. Therefore, we don't need allow class respec.

However, this logic does not translate to DDO.

Asking for every single multiclass possibility to be balanced and playable is an unrealistic request. There are far too many builds possible. The way we multiclass in DDO is more analogous to the way they spec within their class (ie a ranger/rogue is a ranger spec'd differently than a pure ranger) than to different classes.

Therefore, we should be able to respec the way we multiclassed.

#2 - Attack of the Clones

When respec will be added, everyone will change to the best spec and everyone will be the same! It'll be the end of diversity!

This argument is one of the most common argument against respec, which is odd because it has more holes in it than a chunk of Swiss cheese.

First of all, this argument cannot be used to oppose respec. It can be used to oppose some respec but not all. A respec request does not imply any specific cost. First we agree that a respec is needed and then we'll debate the best way to implement one. Thus, this is an invalid objection as there are many ways for such a thing to be avoided if noted as undesirable.

Secondly, if there is such a problem then the problem is with the balance of the game and not with respec. And, if there are serious balance problems, a character respec would allow the developers to address it more easily as they would not to worry about harming characters as much.

Finally, this argument states that 'the Attack of the Clone' is a bad thing but never states why. There is as much diversity with a respec than there is without. A character respec does not reduce diversity, at all. There is as much diversity at a respec screen then there is for you at a creation screen.

If this argument is that other players will finally play something that they like, I don't see what the problem is.

#3 - Cost versus gain

It's clearly not worth the time they'll spend into it. I want content.

This is an invalid argument because no one here can speak of the costs, only the benefits.

#4 - Players won't leave if you don't add respecs

You really think that all the players are going to leave the game if there is not no character respec?

Deep misunderstanding of the argument.

Players will leave because a change is made harms their character and a respec may have prevented them from leaving.

#5 - You asked for it

You exploited the game so now pay for it.

While that may be your opinion, Turbine does not nor should not think this way.

They are motivated by profit and preventing players from leaving is among their priorities.

[Tanka]

Good post, Bor. Though, I'm afraid the most vocal respec opponents will be in here to muddle things up again.

[Angelus_dead]

The first argument can be summarized by the following syllogism:

It looks like you're setting yourself up for failure. An alternative thrust might have been better.

[Vorn]

One can only wonder if the anti-respec folks can post as clearly and concisely.

Ireneus would like this thread, I think, but perhaps not your opponents.

[ahpook]

Good review of the situation Borr.

My only quibble is with this line

Respec as a Premium Service is often an excluded possibility because it does not address the problems that lead to requesting character respec in the first place.

which is derived by your biases more than the discussions. A premium service works to your goals if free respec tokens are provided when game changes are made that warrent them.

[Borror0]

Good review of the situation Borr.

Thank you.

A premium service works to your goals if free respec tokens are provided when game changes are made that warrent them.

But how do you determine that? Tricky question.

(Emphasis mine)

[Angelus_dead]

Finally, this argument states that 'the Attack of the Clone' is a bad thing but never states why. There is as much diversity with a respec than there is without. A character respec does not reduce diversity, at all. There is as much diversity at a respec screen then there is for you at a creation screen.

Also notice that respecs create an opportunity for diversity, by allowing players the freedom to try some suboptimal class choices without the fear of permanently wrecking the character. Maybe I'd like to try cle15/wiz1 for a while and see how it goes... maybe even cle18/wiz1/fig1 later! But if I'm afraid new cleric capstones or L9 spells will turn that into a mistake, then I'll stay away from variety and stick with nerf-proof pure builds.

[Lithic]

It looks like you're setting yourself up for failure. An alternative thrust might have been better.

Hey if all A-D can do is point out that you should have dumbed-down your argument so the average "me keel orcses" player can understand, then you must be on the right track bor!

[Quanefel]

"First we agree that a respec is needed and then we'll debate the best way to implement one."


See, you could have saved yourself the trouble of posting all that above by just having this one line you wrote speak for itself.

It is good to know that you have decided for us that any real debate of wether it is even a good idea, that it needs to be done or should be installed in game is trumped because you have decided for us. Indeed!

[Lithic]

"First we agree that a respec is needed and then we'll debate the best way to implement one."


See, you could have saved yourself the trouble of posting all that above by just having this one line you wrote speak for itself.

It is good to know that you have decided for us that any real debate of wether it is even a good idea, that it needs to be done or should be installed in game is trumped because you have decided for us. Indeed!

If you reread the first 4 lines, he's pretty clear that his post is on behalf of the pro-respec forumites (though I don't remmeber voting for Bor'09 heh). There was also something in there about having the anti-respec posting their views, but none have stepped up in the 99minutes this post has been up. Care to volunteer?

[Angelus_dead]

Deep misunderstanding of the argument.

Players will leave because a change is made harms their character and a respec may have prevented them from leaving.

Several aspects you're leaving out:
1. Naturally, it's not black and white. There isn't one single change that makes someone instantly leave... it's that gradual changes make someone less likely to log in, until one day he decides to stop renewing.

2. Possibly more important than people who dislike their characters being nerfed is people who dislike imbalanced gameplay that can't be fixed without nerfing some characters. For example, suppose someone plays a tower shield fighter, and he's unhappy that he can't tank raids like a monk-splash does. The failure to fix that balance makes him less likely to keep playing.

3. Possibly more important than subscribers who would leave are new players who wouldn't join, because features they desire can't be added without nerfing existing characters.

[Lithic]

Thank you.

But how do you determine that? Tricky question.

(Emphasis mine)

Determining when free respec tokens are given out should be pretty easy. Any time major class abilities are changed would probably do it, at the devs discretion.

The evasion change of '06 would qualify (or was it 07?). Changing monk wisdom bonus ac to centered-only, or limiting it to 2x monk level would be another good example.

The upcoming mod with their capstones would also qualify, though any free respec tokens should expire 4 weeks after the change is made.

[Angelus_dead]

Determining when free respec tokens are given out should be pretty easy.

Yes, it's easy: Every time there's a real game patch.

That only happens 2-3 times per year, so it's no big deal. There will be some temptation to try to filter the tokens so they only go to characters directly affected, but because multiclassing is so flexible, it's better to just err on the side of generosity.

[roggane]

Also notice that respecs create an opportunity for diversity, by allowing players the freedom to try some suboptimal class choices without the fear of permanently wrecking the character. Maybe I'd like to try cle15/wiz1 for a while and see how it goes... maybe even cle18/wiz1/fig1 later! But if I'm afraid new cleric capstones or L9 spells will turn that into a mistake, then I'll stay away from variety and stick with nerf-proof pure builds.

I'd have to say, this would definitely gives lots of us something to do or work on while we're bored out of our minds waiting for releases.

[Quanefel]

If you reread the first 4 lines, he's pretty clear that his post is on behalf of the pro-respec forumites (though I don't remmeber voting for Bor'09 heh). There was also something in there about having the anti-respec posting their views, but none have stepped up in the 99minutes this post has been up. Care to volunteer?

Exactly why does any of the anti-respec folks need to post their views? He has already decided for us as well as posting our views clearly. Well he posted his twisted, illogical, false assertions of the anti-respec people.

Remember, debating it is not important just agreeing and debating out how it will be installed is the topic now....

[Borror0]

Determining when free respec tokens are given out should be pretty easy.

As A_D pointed out, it'd need to be every module and given how rare that has become, even that model is unattractive.

Maybe if the game was updated every 1-2 month, but now with the 4 months lapse...

[...] though any free respec tokens should expire 4 weeks after the change is made.

If a player takes a break and logs back on five weeks after the module was released, he has to wait three months?

[Borror0]

/snip

Could you please '/snip' the quote? It takes a lot of vertical space for no reason.

I'd really appreciate it. Thank you.

[Lithic]

As A_D pointed out, it'd need to be every module and given how rare that has become, even that model is unattractive.

Maybe if the game was updated every 1-2 month, but now with the 4 months lapse...

If a player takes a break and logs back on five weeks after the module was released, he has to wait three months?

To get another free one? Yep. But he could always pay the theoretical cost of the non-free respec option (say, 20 dragonshards, or 1millpp, or W/E the devs decide it is).

Expiration dates prevent characters who don't want to respec due to a game change from gathering multiple tokens to be used later for other reasons. Maybe it wouldnt matter that someone gathered 12 respec tokens and used them all one month to try out lots of weird builds, but I don't think the spirit of a free respec token requires that they be permanent, only that they stick around long enough for the vast majority to use them to adapt to the related change.

Remember, there would likely be a costly, but available respec option anyway.

[Borror0]

Exactly why does any of the anti-respec folks need to post their views?

Sorry if you felt your input was not appreciated. This thread is intended for pro-respec and anti-respec to debate on whether or not character respec seems to be a good idea from our player point of view. So please explain your perspective and challenge my arguments all you want.

I'm looking forward to it.

Again, sorry about that. I'll try to reword that passage.

EDIT: Tried something. No idea if that sounds better to you. You can suggest a better wording if you want.