The Arguments for Character Respec

[Borror0]

Once again, character respec discussions have taken over the forums, to the point of derailing an important thread for feedback.

It these discussions, it seems that there are a lot of misconceptions about the pro-respec arguments. For the proponents of character respec, it is quite irritating as it feels as if words were being put into our mouth. As for those against the implementation of a character respec, it weakens their positions because they are not addressing our arguments.

Hopefully, this thread will clarify our position and lead to more productive conversation.

Before I start explaining our argument, I think it may be worthwhile to define what is meant by "character respec".

Character respec is an expression used to simplify to gather multiple requests into one. The purpose of this word is to avoid making too heavy sentences each time one has to talk about all the request being made. Usually, in the context of DDO, it includes alignment respec, class respec, skill point respec and often race respec as well.

Whether or not these respec are offered all at once or if they are separated is unimportant (although the 'all at once' option seems to be less hard for turbine to code).

Aesthetic respecs are often included because the arguments from them are different than the ones for respec of things directly affecting gameplay but no one would complain if Turbine decided to kill two birds with one stone.

Please note that a request for respec makes no mention of the cost that will be used. Consensus is that we have to agree that really there is a problem before being able to discuss what is the best way to solve it. Possible costs are in-game money, XP and collectibles (Ã* la dragonshard). Respec as a Premium Service is often an excluded possibility because it does not address the problems that lead to requesting character respec in the first place.

Now that I have taken the time to explain what the request is, exactly, I'll proceed into explaining the two main reasons to ask for a character respec. The first argument being that character respec would increase character retention and the second argument being that character respec would allow game developers to change the game data more freely, thus leading to a better game.

The first argument can be summarized by the following syllogism:

1. Various errors were made during DDO's design.
2. To fix those errors, DDO developers have to change feats, spells, enhancements, etc. in a way that may harm characters, directly or indirectly.
3. Players value the continuous improvement of their characters and may quit if their characters are harmed.
4. If respecs were possible, then characters could change to follow changed game rules.
5. Players would not feel their character was harmed and not cancel their subscription.
6. Therefore, respecs would increase player retention.

As for the second argument, it can be described as follow:

1. Various errors were made during DDO's design.
2. Due to those errors, the game is not as good as it could be.
3. The developers are inhibited from fixing errors because some characters would be harmed, either directly or indirectly.
4. If respecs were possible, then characters could change to follow changed game rules.
5. The developers would have fewer worries when making a change, so more improvements would happen.
6. Therefore, respecs would make DDO better for everyone.

Both of these arguments illustrate that character respec requests have more to them than being a mere "I want it because I like it": there are benefits to their implementation other than just pleasing the players. And, to discredit the respec request one has to be able to refute both arguments.

Hopefully, that clarifies most misunderstandings.

Now, discuss!

[Borror0]

I'm going to take the time to refute the most common anti-respec arguments.

#1 - Necessary Grind

While what you are saying sounds nice, MMO's need grinds and without grind, a MMO will die. Thus, I believe that adding a character respec will lead to subscriber loss because players will get bored quicker by running out of things to do.

There are two problems with that argument.

First of all, it tries to paint grind as if it would be entirely positive and beneficial to a game when that is not the case. While 'grinding' has the benefit of keeping the player busy, it can also turn him away. In this case, 'grinding' is being 'forced' to start all over again and that is not something enjoyable.

Consider the following situation :

"All of Turbine's servers got hit with some malicious virus, wiping all of the character data, corrupting all the backups and thus forcing everyone in DDO to start over at level 1 with no favor nor gear."

...how many players do you think would renew their subscription? Very few.

At the risk of stating the obvious, a game is supposed to be fun. That's why humans tend to play games. It's very likely that one will cancel his subscription if he is not having fun anymore. And, for many people, feeling they have to start over again is enough to get them to quit.

Secondly, other MMO's currently offer what would translate into a character respec in DDO and yet they are more successful than DDO. If implementing respec would kill the game, it would have kill those games already.

#1.1 - Other MMO's don't have a class respec

You point out other MMO's as a proof that respec won't cause the death of the game but other MMO's don't offer class respec, while you are asking for it. Thus, your argument is invalid and your theory as not been tested.

While more popular games don't currently offer class respec, it is because it makes less sense for them than for us since those other games, like World of Warcraft, don't offer multiclassing. If they would, then they would most likely offer a class respec as well.

The logic used is:

1. All classes have spec worth playing.
2. Since characters can change everything but their class they will be able to spec into something balanced.
3. Therefore, we don't need allow class respec.

However, this logic does not translate to DDO.

Asking for every single multiclass possibility to be balanced and playable is an unrealistic request. There are far too many builds possible. The way we multiclass in DDO is more analogous to the way they spec within their class (ie a ranger/rogue is a ranger spec'd differently than a pure ranger) than to different classes.

Therefore, we should be able to respec the way we multiclassed.

#2 - Attack of the Clones

When respec will be added, everyone will change to the best spec and everyone will be the same! It'll be the end of diversity!

This argument is one of the most common argument against respec, which is odd because it has more holes in it than a chunk of Swiss cheese.

First of all, this argument cannot be used to oppose respec. It can be used to oppose some respec but not all. A respec request does not imply any specific cost. First we agree that a respec is needed and then we'll debate the best way to implement one. Thus, this is an invalid objection as there are many ways for such a thing to be avoided if noted as undesirable.

Secondly, if there is such a problem then the problem is with the balance of the game and not with respec. And, if there are serious balance problems, a character respec would allow the developers to address it more easily as they would not to worry about harming characters as much.

Finally, this argument states that 'the Attack of the Clone' is a bad thing but never states why. There is as much diversity with a respec than there is without. A character respec does not reduce diversity, at all. There is as much diversity at a respec screen then there is for you at a creation screen.

If this argument is that other players will finally play something that they like, I don't see what the problem is.

#3 - Cost versus gain

It's clearly not worth the time they'll spend into it. I want content.

This is an invalid argument because no one here can speak of the costs, only the benefits.

#4 - Players won't leave if you don't add respecs

You really think that all the players are going to leave the game if there is not no character respec?

Deep misunderstanding of the argument.

Players will leave because a change is made harms their character and a respec may have prevented them from leaving.

#5 - You asked for it

You exploited the game so now pay for it.

While that may be your opinion, Turbine does not nor should not think this way.

They are motivated by profit and preventing players from leaving is among their priorities.

[Tanka]

Good post, Bor. Though, I'm afraid the most vocal respec opponents will be in here to muddle things up again.

[Vorn]

One can only wonder if the anti-respec folks can post as clearly and concisely.

Ireneus would like this thread, I think, but perhaps not your opponents.

[ahpook]

Good review of the situation Borr.

My only quibble is with this line

Respec as a Premium Service is often an excluded possibility because it does not address the problems that lead to requesting character respec in the first place.

which is derived by your biases more than the discussions. A premium service works to your goals if free respec tokens are provided when game changes are made that warrent them.

[Borror0]

Good review of the situation Borr.

Thank you.

A premium service works to your goals if free respec tokens are provided when game changes are made that warrent them.

But how do you determine that? Tricky question.

(Emphasis mine)

[Lithic]

Thank you.

But how do you determine that? Tricky question.

(Emphasis mine)

Determining when free respec tokens are given out should be pretty easy. Any time major class abilities are changed would probably do it, at the devs discretion.

The evasion change of '06 would qualify (or was it 07?). Changing monk wisdom bonus ac to centered-only, or limiting it to 2x monk level would be another good example.

The upcoming mod with their capstones would also qualify, though any free respec tokens should expire 4 weeks after the change is made.

[Angelus_dead]

Finally, this argument states that 'the Attack of the Clone' is a bad thing but never states why. There is as much diversity with a respec than there is without. A character respec does not reduce diversity, at all. There is as much diversity at a respec screen then there is for you at a creation screen.

Also notice that respecs create an opportunity for diversity, by allowing players the freedom to try some suboptimal class choices without the fear of permanently wrecking the character. Maybe I'd like to try cle15/wiz1 for a while and see how it goes... maybe even cle18/wiz1/fig1 later! But if I'm afraid new cleric capstones or L9 spells will turn that into a mistake, then I'll stay away from variety and stick with nerf-proof pure builds.

[Quanefel]

"First we agree that a respec is needed and then we'll debate the best way to implement one."


See, you could have saved yourself the trouble of posting all that above by just having this one line you wrote speak for itself.

It is good to know that you have decided for us that any real debate of wether it is even a good idea, that it needs to be done or should be installed in game is trumped because you have decided for us. Indeed!

[Lithic]

"First we agree that a respec is needed and then we'll debate the best way to implement one."


See, you could have saved yourself the trouble of posting all that above by just having this one line you wrote speak for itself.

It is good to know that you have decided for us that any real debate of wether it is even a good idea, that it needs to be done or should be installed in game is trumped because you have decided for us. Indeed!

If you reread the first 4 lines, he's pretty clear that his post is on behalf of the pro-respec forumites (though I don't remmeber voting for Bor'09 heh). There was also something in there about having the anti-respec posting their views, but none have stepped up in the 99minutes this post has been up. Care to volunteer?

[Quanefel]

If you reread the first 4 lines, he's pretty clear that his post is on behalf of the pro-respec forumites (though I don't remmeber voting for Bor'09 heh). There was also something in there about having the anti-respec posting their views, but none have stepped up in the 99minutes this post has been up. Care to volunteer?

Exactly why does any of the anti-respec folks need to post their views? He has already decided for us as well as posting our views clearly. Well he posted his twisted, illogical, false assertions of the anti-respec people.

Remember, debating it is not important just agreeing and debating out how it will be installed is the topic now....

[roggane]

Also notice that respecs create an opportunity for diversity, by allowing players the freedom to try some suboptimal class choices without the fear of permanently wrecking the character. Maybe I'd like to try cle15/wiz1 for a while and see how it goes... maybe even cle18/wiz1/fig1 later! But if I'm afraid new cleric capstones or L9 spells will turn that into a mistake, then I'll stay away from variety and stick with nerf-proof pure builds.

I'd have to say, this would definitely gives lots of us something to do or work on while we're bored out of our minds waiting for releases.

[Angelus_dead]

Deep misunderstanding of the argument.

Players will leave because a change is made harms their character and a respec may have prevented them from leaving.

Several aspects you're leaving out:
1. Naturally, it's not black and white. There isn't one single change that makes someone instantly leave... it's that gradual changes make someone less likely to log in, until one day he decides to stop renewing.

2. Possibly more important than people who dislike their characters being nerfed is people who dislike imbalanced gameplay that can't be fixed without nerfing some characters. For example, suppose someone plays a tower shield fighter, and he's unhappy that he can't tank raids like a monk-splash does. The failure to fix that balance makes him less likely to keep playing.

3. Possibly more important than subscribers who would leave are new players who wouldn't join, because features they desire can't be added without nerfing existing characters.

[Borror0]

/snip

Could you please '/snip' the quote? It takes a lot of vertical space for no reason.

I'd really appreciate it. Thank you.

[Angelus_dead]

The first argument can be summarized by the following syllogism:

It looks like you're setting yourself up for failure. An alternative thrust might have been better.

[Lithic]

It looks like you're setting yourself up for failure. An alternative thrust might have been better.

Hey if all A-D can do is point out that you should have dumbed-down your argument so the average "me keel orcses" player can understand, then you must be on the right track bor!

[shores11]

Once again, character respec discussions have taken over the forums, to the point of derailing an important thread for feedback.

It these discussions, it seems that there are a lot of misconceptions about the pro-respec arguments. For the proponents of character respec, it is quite irritating as it feels as if words were being put into our mouth. As for those against the implementation of a character respec, it weakens their positions because they are not addressing our arguments.

Hopefully, this thread will clarify our position and lead to more productive conversation.

Before I start explaining our argument, I think it may be worthwhile to define what is meant by "character respec".

Character respec is an expression used to simplify to gather multiple requests into one. The purpose of this word is to avoid making too heavy sentences each time one has to talk about all the request being made. Usually, in the context of DDO, it includes alignment respec, class respec, skill point respec and often race respec as well.

Whether or not these respec are offered all at once or if they are separated is unimportant (although the 'all at once' option seems to be less hard for turbine to code).

Aesthetic respecs are often included because the arguments from them are different than the ones for respec of things directly affecting gameplay but no one would complain if Turbine decided to kill two birds with one stone.

Please note that a request for respec makes no mention of the cost that will be used. Consensus is that we have to agree that really there is a problem before being able to discuss what is the best way to solve it. Possible costs are in-game money, XP and collectibles (Ã* la dragonshard). Respec as a Premium Service is often an excluded possibility because it does not address the problems that lead to requesting character respec in the first place.

Now that I have taken the time to explain what the request is, exactly, I'll proceed into explaining the two main reasons to ask for a character respec. The first argument being that character respec would increase character retention and the second argument being that character respec would allow game developers to change the game data more freely, thus leading to a better game.

The first argument can be summarized by the following syllogism:

1. Various errors were made during DDO's design.
2. To fix those errors, DDO developers have to change feats, spells, enhancements, etc. in a way that may harm characters, directly or indirectly.
3. Players value the continuous improvement of their characters and may quit if their characters are harmed.
4. If respecs were possible, then characters could change to follow changed game rules.
5. Players would not feel their character was harmed and not cancel their subscription.
6. Therefore, respecs would increase player retention.

As for the second argument, it can be described as follow:

1. Various errors were made during DDO's design.
2. Due to those errors, the game is not as good as it could be.
3. The developers are inhibited from fixing errors because some characters would be harmed, either directly or indirectly.
4. If respecs were possible, then characters could change to follow changed game rules.
5. The developers would have fewer worries when making a change, so more improvements would happen.
6. Therefore, respecs would make DDO better for everyone.

Both of these arguments illustrate that character respec requests have more to them than being a mere "I want it because I like it": there are benefits to their implementation other than just pleasing the players. And, to discredit the respec request one has to be able to refute both arguments.

Hopefully, that clarifies most misunderstandings.

Now, discuss!

Because you say one has to dis-credit both points in order to be valid is in itself not a valid point or stance as I do not recall reading your name in the book of "I make all things valid once I speak them".

It really comes down to some players want what they really do not want. Players that say they want all of these one click solutions to all of there gripes in DDO or any other MMO would be the very first ones to end up leaving the game for something else to play and gripe about because they are bored (Hey look at me I have everything uber in the game items, feats, skills now what do I do since all monsters die from just looking at me, this game is boring). Many of the proponents for respecs are also the same ones that want one click loot options for every quest/raid (after each run not the 20th run) as well or want 32 point builds without any effort at all to aquire them. You do not fool me or many other players.

In fact I submit the complete opposite point of view as you do. DDO knows exactly what they are doing and the game was never designed wrong and needed fixing. which does not imply that they should not or do not need to continue to develop the game to be fresh as possible to keep player attention. I submit that the DDO team see's many of these complaints from the less than 1% of its player base and picks the well made suggestions and/or complaints and alters the game play as needed. This does not mean it is broke it means they care about their product and continue to develop it. Something that may be a problem is something like the continued lag that haunts us all not the character customization.

I mean the real argument for respec's is to not have to quest for favor again and level again. I submit that this is DDO's way of saying run all of the various quests we have as options in the game and this is a great thing I think. I would submit that many of the players that say the game lacks content or hates favor questing has not ran over 60% of the games content and that my friends is a problem.

[Borror0]

Because you say one has to dis-credit both points in order to be valid is in itself not a valid point or stance

Of course not, but that is how a debate operates.

One makes one or many arguments and others have to refute them. That is how it works.

/snip

Why do you waste so much time flaming the opposite point of view? None of your attacks were warranted.

Maybe you want to stir up some... but if so, go do that elsewhere please.

DDO knows exactly what they are doing and the game was never designed wrong and needed fixing.

This is invalidated by them changing features because they were deemed too powerful.

Critical Rage II, Dwarven Toughness, Evasion and Human Versatility are the most known ones but there are others.

I mean the real argument for respec's is to not have to quest for favor again and level again.

Sorry, no, it isn't.

[kaidendager]

Sorry if you felt your input was not appreciated. This thread is intended for pro-respec and anti-respec to debate on whether or not character respec seems to be a good idea from our player point of view.

I can let a little argumentative masturbation go for awhile, we all do it. You've provided the easiest arguments against your own and knocked them down like a true champ. If you had said this is a thread where pro-respec people can congregate and congratulate eachother on how smart they think eachother is that'd be fine. But to say this is an open thread for debate when you attack anyone with an opposing viewpoint and set your own rules for how we should argue I've got a bit of a problem with it, particularly in light that you've built the opposing viewpoint in your own eyes and already demolished it.

And, to discredit the respec request one has to be able to refute both arguments.

Of course not, but that is how a debate operates.

While I cannot deny that isn't true in some respect it is also like saying playing DDO is just hitting keys on a keyboard really fast. It's true that refutation is an aspect of debate, but it hardly encompasses the entirety of debate.

Example: If I state that the war in Iraq is a good thing and we should continue it because of two points A) Killing people is a good thing and B) War is a natural part of the human psyche and stated that both are true unless both can be refuted I'd be laughed out of the forum. Saying that one must refute all arguments presented or not present his/her points is not very practical and not very conducive to a proactive debate.

It these discussions, it seems that there are a lot of misconceptions about the pro-respec arguments. For the proponents of character respec, it is quite irritating as it feels as if words were being put into our mouth.

This one I'm just requoting because I believe most people missed the juicy juicy irony.