The Arguments for Character Respec

[RTN]

Didn't Turbine basically admit that respec would be an absolute nightmare for them technologically? While the arguments for respec might be convincing (I have a few things I'd like to alter about several of my characters), is it even worth it given that the Powers-that-be have basically said, we feel your pain, but it isn't possible with the resources we have. No, I don't have the post and it might have been before the great forum wipe, but I am 100% that at least one of the Devs have stated this.

[Quanefel]

Wrong, again.

You're not even approximately following the conversation, and your replies are inapplicable to this context. The DM's discretion doesn't extend to modifying the text of books possessed by people he hasn't even met. Someone made an incorrect claim about the text of PHB2, a book published by Wizards/Hasbro.

The DM is in charge of his game, and he's allowed to modify or ignore the written rules whenever he feels like it. But just because some DM exercised his perogative doesn't mean that rule was never printed in the first place.


If you'd read before replying, you might not make that kind of mistake.

I am wrong? The rule of the GM having final say I things is not in the rulebooks? Next time you play a P&P session, go ahead and tell the GM that YOU have final say. Tell me how that works out for you.

What are you talking about? Now you are just tossing out random statements that has nothing to do with any of this. Textbooks of people a DM has never met, ....what??

The GM has final say rule or the non-existant rule of players respeccing their characters fully on a whim? I still would like to see THAT rule.

[FluffyCalico]

And that's all fine and good.

But if those that run those official games change a rule that affects a player's enjoyment, would they be so rigid as to not allow some kind of respec? Maybe they would be. There are other DMs that wouldn't be. All of that is irrelevant to the question of would it be smart for Turbine to be so inflexible. And that's ignoring the vast difference b/w running a game for a handful of people, and running a game for tens of thousands.

Good point lets look at that with a WOW comparision yes I said wow.

Many top raid guilds require your spec to be x y z and get away with it bcause they know you can walk up and poof there is x y z spec. This is already being done to some extent to casters in this game. I do not see the ability to full repec (which will allow the demand of an exact spec) to be for the enjoyment of the masses. I see it as a way to run around with a level one that already has full raid gear in the bank. The only people who really benifit are the few that have tons of raid gear or those that play so little they can't level another up. This is in no way the majority. And I personally don't want anything in place that will make the whole you must x y z become a full reality.

[Quanefel]

Didn't Turbine basically admit that respec would be an absolute nightmare for them technologically? While the arguments for respec might be convincing (I have a few things I'd like to alter about several of my characters), is it even worth it given that the Powers-that-be have basically said, we feel your pain, but it isn't possible with the resources we have. No, I don't have the post and it might have been before the great forum wipe, but I am 100% that at least one of the Devs have stated this.

http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Respec

I hope that helps.

[Mhykke]

Good point lets look at that with a WOW comparision yes I said wow.

Many top raid guilds require your spec to be x y z and get away with it bcause they know you can walk up and poof there is x y z spec. This is already being done to some extent to casters in this game. I do not see the ability to full repec (which will allow the demand of an exact spec) to be for the enjoyment of the masses. I see it as a way to run around with a level one that already has full raid gear in the bank. The only people who really benifit are the few that have tons of raid gear or those that play so little they can't level another up. This is in no way the majority. And I personally don't want anything in place that will make the whole you must x y z become a full reality.

The fear of "you must be x y or z" could easily be handled if a respec was on a long timer, correct?

[FluffyCalico]

The fear of "you must be x y or z" could easily be handled if a respec was on a long timer, correct?

Nope lets say 1 month. Guild leader, I know you can respec in the next month so by day ... you must be x y z or your are out. It's not x y z for a quest. It's x y z to be in the guild period

[Mhykke]

Nope lets say 1 month. Guild leader, I know you can respec in the next month so by day ... you must be x y z or your are out.

You're just arguing degree. What about once every 12 months? Do you really expect someone to suggest to someone else to respec their character in a game that only allows 1 per year, for example?

[FluffyCalico]

You're just arguing degree. What about once every 12 months? Do you really expect someone to suggest to someone else to respec their character in a game that only allows 1 per year, for example?

Hm... not sure I have an objection to this other than I plain don't like repecs. I could look the other way if they did this. And yes this is very different than 1 per month

[Tanka]

Maybe you did not get the memo, 4.0 has PHB2 also.

http://dnd4.com/rumors

I have 3.0 in front of me, I think but no 3.5 PHB2. Is it about the energy drain from a wight?

Perhaps, before making unsubstantiated claims, you would do well to do a little research into points made by other parties before attempting to refute them.

[Angelus_dead]

Well if you had the book you would see that it says that even though it lays out the rules for changes that the changes must be kept within reason to protect the story and character integrity.

A full respec is not "within reason"

Ok, so you say you do in fact possess the PHB2 book... but still, you badly misrepresent it's contents.

I suppose I'll just type in one paragraph.

It's true that part of the D&D game's challenge is making smart choices in creating or advancing your character. But a DM who forces someone to play a character he doesn't find enjoyable isn't making the game fun for that player or the others at the table. In such a situation, the player usually either throws away the character and rolls up a new one, or quits the game. If your campaign values character continuity, neither of those outcomes is especially attractive. Why force Mike to throw away the elf fighter he's been playing for three months just because he made a couple of bad feat choices? If Mialee has been an integral part of the campaign since day 1 but has regretted being an elf since day 2, wouldn't it be better to let her become the halfling she'd prefer to be by undergoind a dramatic transformation at the Necrotic Cradle than by abruptly replacing her with Liamee the halfling wizard?

[Quanefel]

6. D&D Fidelity. The published game rules of D&D allow for respec, although they call it either "retraining", "rebuilding", or "permanent negative level". There's also such a thing as a "Helm of Opposite Alignment' and even "Girdle of Gender Changing".

That right there is the biggest bunch of BS I have ever seen. Fidelity, really?

A Helm of Opposite Alignement is one cursed magical item.
A Girdle of Gender Change is a seperate cursed magical item.
A respec...does not exist in D&D. It is an MMO term, not a D&D term.
Negative Level Drain comes from a spell or certian undead as an attack. Not a good thing.

For all of those to take place, a player would have to wear the helm, put on the belt, and stand there while a wight attacks and drains you down to level 1 without killing you outright and respec out anything else that is not taken care of with all that with a rule that does not exist. With the last thing of the GM saying, Go for it!


So basically bastarize various mechanics and rules, combine them, add other made up mechanics/rules that would somehow be more D&D like to would help this full respec idea? You seriously need to rethink all that.

[Mhykke]

Hm... not sure I have an objection to this other than I plain don't like repecs. I could look the other way if they did this. And yes this is very different that 1 per month

I'm open for there to be some kind of prevention of people respeccing constantly for the current flavor build (even though I don't consider this a big problem). I think there's some common ground where people would have the opportunity to adjust their character eventually according to a different game than the one when they created and leveled their character, at the same time not allowing for that person to simply completely readjust their character on a whim.

[FluffyCalico]

Ok, so you say you do in fact possess the PHB2 book... but still, you badly misrepresent it's contents.

I suppose I'll just type in one paragraph.

HAHA since you like typeing put in the last paragraph from that same page

[Angelus_dead]

Negative Level Drain comes from a spell or certian undead as an attack. Not a good thing.

Exactly... level drain is supposed to be a bad thing.

In D&D there is no level cap to get stuck at, so if you have a way to get XP you can keep going up and up. But in DDO there is a level cap, creating the perverse situation where many characters would enjoy getting level drained so they could take a better level.

Rule of Thumb: If the game rules create a situation where a player can regret accepting some reward (like advancing in level), those rules should be re-examined.

For all of those to take place, a player would have to wear the helm, put on the belt, and stand there while a wight attacks and drains you down to level 1 without killing you outright and respec out anything else that is not taken care of with all that with a rule that does not exist.

What are you trying to do?

[FluffyCalico]

I'm open for there to be some kind of prevention of people respeccing constantly for the current flavor build (even though I don't consider this a big problem). I think there's some common ground where people would have the opportunity to adjust their character eventually according to a different game than the one when they created and leveled their character, at the same time not allowing for that person to simply completely readjust their character on a whim.

At least you are being reasonable and trying to make sence. Thanks for creating an actual discussion out of all the BS from others that shall not be named.

[bobbryan2]

That right there is the biggest bunch of BS I have ever seen. Fidelity, really?

A Helm of Opposite Alignement is one cursed magical item.
A Girdle of Gender Change is a seperate cursed magical item.
A respec...does not exist in D&D. It is an MMO term, not a D&D term.
Negative Level Drain comes from a spell or certian undead as an attack. Not a good thing.

For all of those to take place, a player would have to wear the helm, put on the belt, and stand there while a wight attacks and drains you down to level 1 without killing you outright and respec out anything else that is not taken care of with all that with a rule that does not exist. With the last thing of the GM saying, Go for it!


So basically bastarize various mechanics and rules, combine them, add other made up mechanics/rules that would somehow be more D&D like to would help this full respec idea? You seriously need to rethink all that.

It makes more sense than using PnP fidelty as an anti-respec argument, truth be told.

[FluffyCalico]

Exactly... level drain is supposed to be a bad thing.

In D&D there is no level cap to get stuck at, so if you have a way to get XP you can keep going up and up. But in DDO there is a level cap, creating the perverse situation where many characters would enjoy getting level drained so they could take a better level.

Rule of Thumb: If the game rules create a situation where a player can regret accepting some reward (like advancing in level), those rules should be re-examined.


What are you trying to do?

Another point of view would be since DDO is xp capped there is no longer a penalty to loosing the level as you can quickly gain it back and not be behind the rest of the party in levels. Yes when all the bad is taken away and only left with the good something does look good all of a sudden. Which is why it should not be allowed without putting in a new bad thing as it was never ment to be a good thing.

[Angelus_dead]

HAHA since you like typeing put in the last paragraph from that same page

I guess that's the simplest way to prevent the illusion that the paragraph doesn't supports respecs.

This chapter presents rules for revising various aspects of your character during play. With this system, you can modify elements of your character to better fit your vision of who your character should be- both to meet the needs of the party and to face the threats presented during the course of an entire campaign. Though character revision does allow you to "rewrite" certain elements of your character, the rules presented here ensure that the changes remain within reason and do not upset the story that has been created by each characters' deeds in the campaign

[FluffyCalico]

I guess that's the simplest way to prevent the illusion that the paragraph doesn't supports respecs.

"Though character revision does allow you to "rewrite" certain elements of your character, the rules presented here ensure that the changes remain within reason and do not upset the story that has been created by each characters' deeds in the campaign"

Yes thats the line I wanted to see. Please explain how this line indicates that we should be allowed "full respecs" I see it saying very limited resepcs and in no way a full respec.

[Tanka]

"Though character revision does allow you to "rewrite" certain elements of your character, the rules presented here ensure that the changes remain within reason and do not upset the story that has been created by each characters' deeds in the campaign"

Yes thats the line I wanted to see. Please explain how this line indicates that we should be allowed "full respecs" I see it saying very limited resepcs and in no way a full respec.

Please tell me where, exactly, in DDO are my deeds recorded and retold by Bards throught Stormreach.

'Cuz I've got a few bribes I need to make if they do actually exist.