The Arguments for Character Respec

[Steiner-Davion]

Exactly why does any of the anti-respec folks need to post their views? He has already decided for us as well as posting our views clearly. Well he posted his twisted, illogical, false assertions of the anti-respec people.

Remember, debating it is not important just agreeing and debating out how it will be installed is the topic now....

Well if the anti-respec camp disagrees with his view on your arguments, I think he is inviting you to correct his understanding of your arguments.

You cannot have an effective debate, if neither side understands where the other is coming from.

[Steiner-Davion]

And here I thought one of the MAIN motivations behind a full character respec was because the Dev's change things and we have no way to adjust to them. Thanks for clearing up what one of the main reasons, really is about.

You're just twisting Borro's words now.

Yes the main reason for having a respec feature would be to adjsutto changes made to the game by the devs, witohout loosing all the bound items and favor you have worked so hard in game to acquire. See ,they go hand in hand.

[Angelus_dead]

I can imagine even I would be for some type of a deleveling system or even just a skill respec. Yet if we try to bring it up, we are shouted down if it is not for a Full Respec.

Wrong.

I don't know what more to say, except to point out that your accusation is untrue.

[Quanefel]

Well if the anti-respec camp disagrees with his view on your arguments, I think he is inviting you to correct his understanding of your arguments.

You cannot have an effective debate, if neither side understands where the other is coming from.

How are we to correct arguements he has made for us, where he dismantles the false arguements to dismiss them himeself?

Yes, it does not make for an effective debate when one side does not know where the other is coming from and it is not effective if one side makes up the arguements beforehand for the other side and dismantles those same false arguements they made up.

[bobbryan2]

How are we to correct arguements he has made for us, where he dismantles the false arguements to dismiss them himeself?

Yes, it does not make for an effective debate when one side does not know where the other is coming from and it is not effective if one side makes up the arguements beforehand for the other side and dismantles those same false arguements they made up.

How? You correct the false arguments with real ones...

[Steiner-Davion]

If people are so upset about items being lost, I can understand that. I can not agree with it but I can understand that. Yet, it should not be a main reason for wanting to respec. It shows more of greed than a desire to actually fix something that is claimed to be broke. I know, I am horrible for calling people greedy. It is just a fact of life that people are. I only point it out to maybe pull people away from at least the impression this is all about greed.

I can not see rerolling as that annoying or all that time-consuming. Releveling, yes. That might very well be true. I can understand that. Respecing will not change that aspect. It is not a stretch of the imagination that IF a full respec is put into place, that the Dev's will in fact require us to relevel. I am sure even you can see that. When people try to give others the impression that the dev's will allow us to push a button, respec AND be brought right back up to full level before we hit that button is setting people up for disappointment. That is my opinion and how I see it. Some might not like that but what, just pretend it is not a great possibility of having to relevel just to make people feel good in the short term? Again, it IS setting people up for disappointment. Stop it.

While what you say here about not being able to just push a button and "Respec" and be exactly back where you started, but with the changes, is true, I'm not entirely certain I understand what you mean by having to "Re-level."

Which of the follwoing do you mean by "Re-level":

1. Loose XP permanently and have to adventure to regain that XP and have to level up normally through the acquisition of XP?
2. You loose no XP, but simply go through the entire character generation and leveling process again without loosing XP
3. Loose ALL XP, and get reset back to level 1 and haveto re-run all the quests to gain experience and level up normally?

[Quanefel]

Wrong.

I don't know what more to say, except to point out that your accusation is untrue.

Really? So if I started a thread asking only for a partial respec, a type of develing respec that no one will come to shout it down because it is not a full respec? Should I send you the link to my thread where I made that very suggestion and the shouting down that proceeded because it was not a full respec? I'd be more than happy to send the link to you privately if you wish.

[bobbryan2]

Really? So if I started a thread asking only for a partial respec, a type of develing respec that no one will come to shout it down because it is not a full respec? Should I send you the link to my thread where I made that very suggestion and the shouting down that proceeded because it was not a full respec? I'd be more than happy to send the link to you privately if you wish.

Your thread wasn't feasible... and it was explained to you in a rather indepth manner.

It wasn't "shouting" and "complaining".

[Quanefel]

Your thread wasn't feasible... and it was explained to you in a rather indepth manner.

It wasn't "shouting" and "complaining".

Not feasible? Will there be at some point in the future that any idea that is not a full respec become feasible?

Not shouting or complaining? Maybe review that thread without rose color glasses on the next time you read it?

[bobbryan2]

Not feasible? Will there be at some point in the future that any idea that is not a full respec become feasible?

Not shouting or complaining? Maybe review that thread without rose color glasses on the next time you read it?

Well, maybe there will be a point. But I meant feasibility... as in.. it can't be implemented. Is there a chance that simply starting over and moving inventory over to the new character becomes technically unfeasible? I very seriously doubt it... All you do is move some database entries from one place to another.

And yes... I did read that thread. and I didn't read it through your "I'm a victim" glasses. I explained several times why your suggestion wasn't technically feasible.

[Angelus_dead]

Really? So if I started a thread asking only for a partial respec, a type of develing respec that no one will come to shout it down because it is not a full respec?

Exactly.

Should I send you the link to my thread where I made that very suggestion and the shouting down that proceeded because it was not a full respec?

Yes, go ahead.

I'd be more than happy to send the link to you privately if you wish.

Absolutely not. I have no interest in something you're unwilling to transmit publicly.

You are undoubtedly referring to this thread. The reasons it was disputed is not because it isn't a "Full Respec" (your own term), but because it's broken in many ways. I mean, changing class levels but not changing skill points? That's just insane.

[Quanefel]

Exactly.


Yes, go ahead.


Absolutely not. I have no interest in something you're unwilling to transmit publicly.

Go ahead and sent it to you but no you do not want me to send it to you? Errrr....which is it?

If you want me to post the link her publicly like you asked here........what a moment, that would be against the rules. You almost had me on that. Almost.

[Angelus_dead]

Go ahead and sent it to you but no you do not want me to send it to you? Errrr....which is it?

If a person would ask a question like that, it signals me that I shouldn't bother talking to him.

[Aspenor]

If a person would ask a question like that, it signals me that I shouldn't bother talking to him.

You shouldn't. I'd quit reading too, it gives me a headache just thinking about it.

[Steiner-Davion]

To simplify my response to the original arguments:

2. If you got it so wrong to begin with, maybe you should start again!

I take exception to this line of logic. For arguments sake, assume, that a character was built "right" as you put it, and not "so wrong" "to begin with" and the perosn running the game decided to change the rules on you, NOW your "right" build is "wrong," what would you want? If you can't answer this question hionestly, then there is no point in having a rational discussion on this topic.In other words, if the rules were changed or were constantly being changed so that it was impossible for you to win, would you sitll play the game and have fun? Would you be able to have fun? I'm not necessarily saying that this has happend or is happening in DDO to the EXTREME scenario, but is a fundamental aspect of the basis behind the pro-respec argument (or so I believe).

[Quanefel]

If a person would ask a question like that, it signals me that I shouldn't bother talking to him.

Originally Posted by Quanefel
Should I send you the link to my thread where I made that very suggestion and the shouting down that proceeded because it was not a full respec?

Yes, go ahead.

Originally Posted by Quanefel
I'd be more than happy to send the link to you privately if you wish.

Absolutely not. I have no interest in something you're unwilling to transmit publicly.

Are you get confused or something here by what you wrote, could you clear this up then?

[Steiner-Davion]

My answer for repecs is simple.
1) DDO makes more people mad the further it gets from PnP
2) In PnP the closest thing you got to a respec was begging the GM to let you go on a quest to replace that feat of uselessness you took
3) DnD has never been about respecing to the single best build it has been about seeing your character grow and have its choices actually make differences in the game and how the character turns out. Respec completely destroys this. Having regrets about a choice is not only part of life, but part of the DnD emersion and always has been.

I totally agree with you. EXCEPT....

In Pen & Paper, you have one person making the rules, with a much smalelr player base. AS such the rules will less likel y change over time, andthe DDM (perosn making the rules) has the ability to better tailor the game to his/her players in such as way thee rules cahgnes arwe not necceary or even warranted.

The very nature of an MMO makes the above "facts" of Pen & Paper not applicable.

[Ryss]

My answer for repecs is simple.
1) DDO makes more people mad the further it gets from PnP
2) In PnP the closest thing you got to a respec was begging the GM to let you go on a quest to replace that feat of uselessness you took
3) DnD has never been about respecing to the single best build it has been about seeing your character grow and have its choices actually make differences in the game and how the character turns out. Respec completely destroys this. Having regrets about a choice is not only part of life, but part of the DnD emersion and always has been.

1) For some people, yes. For others, no. You cannot generalize this.
2) Not true. In many campaigns the DMs I know did allow full respecs. I allowed that too because it is a game and it should be fun. If Joe gets bored of his wiz and wants to play a ftr, he should be able to.
3) True if and only if the rules of the game are static. Then the choices you make are your responsibility alone. If someone else changes them... no.

[Steiner-Davion]

Well if you had the book you would see that it says that even though it lays out the rules for changes that the changes must be kept within reason to protect the story and character integrity.

A full respec is not "within reason"

Again what do we all mean by full respec? So far I am not aware of anyone (seriously) asking for a respec of Race or Gender....


And alignment is a very rare request, but is not out of question, as there were serious issues with "mysterious" alignment changes at one point.

[Tanka]

So far I am not aware of anyone (seriously) asking for a respec of Race or Gender....

A few people have.