New Cleric, which Feats/Enhancements?

[~Quozl]

Just rolled my first Cleric, a 32-pt Human build with the following abilities:

STR 10
DEX 10
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 18
CHA 12

I took Toughness and Mental Toughness for my first two Feats and haven't spent any AP yet. I just made L2.

Interested in making a heal/DV bot. Suggestions on what Feats to take? I must admit the Enhancements are pretty intimidating. I like the idea of taking all the Stat increase and Racial Toughness enhancements but understand it may not be practical.

Which Enhancements increase healing? I'm getting confused by 'light' spells. Also looks like Wand/Scroll Enhancements will be helpful.

Any help appreciated.

[Angelus_dead]

I took Toughness and Mental Toughness for my first two Feats and haven't spent any AP yet. I just made L2.

Toughness is not too useful for that kind of nonaggressive character, because you won't often by the direct subject of enemy damage. You may like to change it later. (The value of Mental Toughness will also decrease as time goes on)

Interested in making a heal/DV bot.

Be warned that DVs aren't too important, and that a cleric who just does Heal/DV is missing out on opportunities to contribute with either offensive spells or weapons. For you, I recommend also getting some casting ability via feats.

For Healing:
Feats- Empower Healing, Maximize, (Empower), (Mental Tough)
Enhancements: Life Magic IV, Wand+Scroll Mastery, Empower Healing

For DV:
Feats- Extra Turning
Enhancements: Divine Vitality, Extra Turning

For offensive casting:
Feats- Maximize, Heighten, Extend, (Spell Focus Necro)
Enhancements- Wisdom III

[DoctorWhofan]

For DVs take extra turning feat. Also, the extra turning enhancements. Toughness, not so much. Other feats are Empower Healing, Maximise and Quicken, all that can be used for healing.


Somehow my level 16 capped cleric is STILL using DVs. Very useful in the Shroud, especially during part 4 Lagville. Get used to people telling you that they are not useful anymore.

[Sehenry03]

Yeah I agree with Doctorwhofan...DV's just come in handy everywhere and people love you more for it. Myself I made a cleric with max wis and cha...con is ok but with +6 items and a +2 tome later your playstyle won't be affected a lot with a slightly lower con. I wouldn't put anything into str or dex...your AC is never gonna be any good and your str doesn't matter for your build. The fun thing about your build is yes you can be a healbot but you can also be an offensive cleric. I wouldnt't worry much about toughness or mental toughness I would get extend, empower healing, quicken, maximize, extra turn undead and a bonus of whatever ya want. The main thing is play whatever type ya want and have fun. You can make any cleric build work

[Inspire]

I think toughness is a great feat selection for a Healing orientated Cleric. Your focuses will be first and foremost on Wisdom, Constitution secondary, and Charisma behind those. Toughness will give you access to 40 additional Hps for when things go "pear shaped", like a delayed blast fireball to the noggin, in which case every little bit helps.

I like this feat set-up for a human(end game) Cleric;

1) Toughness
1) Extend
3) Empower Healing
6) Empower
9) Quicken
12) Maximize
15) Spell Penetration or Spell Foucs(Enhantment/Necromancy)
18*) Greater Spell Penetration or Greater Spell Focus(Enhantment/Necromancy)

Heighten is another good option.

* Not yet avaliable.

[~Quozl]

Thanks all for the great feedback!

I should say that I was considering only keeping the Toughness and Mental Toughness for low levels where it seems to have the most effect and swap out later. Since the Minos Legens is getting 'fixed' so it no longer grants the Toughness feat I won't have access to the cheap/easy 30HP from the Enhancements unless I actually take the Feat.

So does Maximize and Empower help with healing allies? This is where I get confused since there is an actual Empower Healing Feat.

Also which Spell Crit Enhancements are specific to healing? This is another area where I have no idea what to get.

If I'm not concerned with Turning Undead is there any other use for Charisma other than UMD?

Thanks!

[Goldeneye]

So does Maximize and Empower help with healing allies? This is where I get confused since there is an actual Empower Healing Feat.

Maximize and Empower both add a little juice to your healing spells (making them more effective at the cost of more sp) - In terms of Empower Healing, its exactly like empower, except it only effect your healing spells, and is more mana-efficient then Empower

Also which Spell Crit Enhancements are specific to healing? This is another area where I have no idea what to get.

I wouldn't worry about spell-crit enhancements until higher level, the action points are better put to use towards increasing spell power, more sp, and increased scroll/wand efficiency. spell-crit enhancements only really start being beneficial when you get mass heals, in my opinion

If I'm not concerned with Turning Undead is there any other use for Charisma other than UMD?

for a cleric, your CHA modifier = how many times you can turn undead per day, since turn undead is broken, it's basically used as DV's to restore sp to an another caster. - so your CHA modifier effects how many times you can DV per rest

Your off to a nice start w/ your cleric - built like a true cleric

[Aranticus]

Maximize and Empower both add a little juice to your healing spells (making them more effective at the cost of more sp) - In terms of Empower Healing, its exactly like empower, except it only effect your healing spells, and is more mana-efficient then Empower

to add on, maximise and empower just about affect all healing and combat damage spells in a cleric's arsenal. however it does not affect the HEAL spell. as for empower healing, all healing spells are affected, including the HEAL spells. empower healing is not necessary more mana-efficient. you have to take the enhancements to make them more efficient

I wouldn't worry about spell-crit enhancements until higher level, the action points are better put to use towards increasing spell power, more sp, and increased scroll/wand efficiency. spell-crit enhancements only really start being beneficial when you get mass heals, in my opinion

i do not even have the crit enhancements or the scroll enhancements on my clerics. the guantlet of eternity from reaver is more than sufficient

for a cleric, your CHA modifier = how many times you can turn undead per day, since turn undead is broken, it's basically used as DV's to restore sp to an another caster. - so your CHA modifier effects how many times you can DV per rest

Your off to a nice start w/ your cleric - built like a true cleric

goldeneye, sorry that is not a cleric. it is a healbot. healbots are not true clerics

OP, in current terms a healbot is most effective during raid boss fights. it is good that you can heal but there are very little boss fights where you will need resources. the majority of a cleric's resources comes from fighting trash mobs. while its good for you to be able to heal, learn to use the offensive spells ie greater command, soundburst, etc. a well placed greater command can neutralise a horde of mobs. the melees can pick them out easy with little or even no damage sustained. this goes a longer way than just healing

[DoctorWhofan]

goldeneye, sorry that is not a cleric. it is a healbot. healbots are not true clerics

OP, in current terms a healbot is most effective during raid boss fights. it is good that you can heal but there are very little boss fights where you will need resources. the majority of a cleric's resources comes from fighting trash mobs. while its good for you to be able to heal, learn to use the offensive spells ie greater command, soundburst, etc. a well placed greater command can neutralise a horde of mobs. the melees can pick them out easy with little or even no damage sustained. this goes a longer way than just healing

He asked for a healbot.

FYI, I do carry spell pen feat, along with Empower (changing it to Max.) and Extend, which I still use alot. I also have both mental toughness feats. If your primary focus is healing, then Toughness isn't nessacary.

Your DEX needs to top off at 12 (for the plate DEX bonus), so I would not put anything into it. Your STR can be around 12-14 range, it will help you solo at low level when mana is at a premium, but not nessacary. I typically go WIS 17 or 18 depending, CHA around 13-15 range, STR a 14, and CON the rest. THe only time I changethat is when I do a speciality cleric, like a Clogue or a WF cleric. But, forthe OP, pure is better and wiser.

Also, Clerics arethe only class in the game that can take enhancements in both CHA and WIS, if you are doing DV's, take advantage of it. My main sits at a 22 CHA with 18 DV's.

HOWEVER: As others have warned you, staying a healbot/buffbot is not good at higher levels. Taking feat such as Maximise and potency items (and pen items/feats/enhancements) is a simple way to stay flexible and still be a HEALBOT.

My cleric started as a healbot, back when clerics had like five combat spells total, but because I stayed flexible, I was able to be an darn good offensive caster, too. It isn't my primary focus, but I can change over in a heartbeat if needed. She's a Generalist. Not the most ubar cleric, or the best healer, but in the end, far more survivable than most healbots.

[eyepuppy]

I think toughness is a great feat selection for a Healing orientated Cleric. Your focuses will be first and foremost on Wisdom, Constitution secondary, and Charisma behind those. Toughness will give you access to 40 additional Hps for when things go "pear shaped", like a delayed blast fireball to the noggin, in which case every little bit helps.

I like this feat set-up for a human(end game) Cleric;

1) Toughness
1) Extend
3) Empower Healing
6) Empower
9) Quicken
12) Maximize
15) Spell Penetration or Spell Foucs(Enhantment/Necromancy)
18*) Greater Spell Penetration or Greater Spell Focus(Enhantment/Necromancy)

Heighten is another good option.

* Not yet avaliable.

Taking both empower and empower heal is kind of a waste if you ask me. I would much rather have a MT than both.

[~Quozl]

Ok, thanks again everyone. This is VERY educational if not overwhelming.

My alt's are 15 Ranger, 8/7 Ranger/Rogue, 16 Rogue, 14 Fighter, 14 Wizard, 16 Sorcerer, and now 3 Cleric. Of all these I find the Cleric to be the most difficult to create. I had know idea before but now... Seems with so many options there more opporunities to shoot yourself in the foot.

So. It is very helpful to know that Max and Emp affect healing but not the Heal spell whereas Emp Healing does and cost 5SP less than regular Emp. Eyepuppy which of the three would you keep?

DoctorWhofan do you carry Empower Healing? I hear you on DEX and I've plenty of +6 items to drop on her to get DEX to 16. +3 DEX armor bonus is around the max for most heavy armors I think and I don't have Armored Agility Enhancements.

Also seems that I don't need to worry too much about the Spell Dam/Crit Enhancements until later levels.

Anyway, I went ahead and leveled to 3. Just been dropping Skill Points into Concentration, Heal, and UMD. The story so far:

Lvl. Feats
1. Toughness
1. Mental Toughness(can easily switch either out later but wanted all the boost I could for early on survivability)
3. Extend - I didn't take this earlier cause the difference between 1 minute and 2 wasn't big however 3 minutes to 6 is getting into useful range. esp. now I that have Resist Energy.

Only spent 4 out of 9AP's so far:
Cleric Divine Vitality I
Cleric Wisdom I(Got the bauble from Butcher's Path so now have an even 20)
Cleric Energy of the Zealot I(these early ones get used to meet the 'points spent' prereq's.

Suggestion for spending the 5AP's? Not alot available. 10% increase to heal spells or Wand/Scroll Efficiency. Actually I think Cleric Charisma I may be available as well.

You all have giving me a lot to think about which truly was the goal. I now don't feel like I need invest every single point into the Heal category. A bit of balance may be in order.

Aranticus what do you consider a 'proper' cleric? I'd to hear some ideas and even if I don't implement all of them it's still food for thought. I'm getting the picture a good cleric can be more than a heal/dvbot.

Thanks again everyone!

[Nyvn]

So. It is very helpful to know that Max and Emp affect healing but not the Heal spell whereas Emp Healing does and cost 5SP less than regular Emp. Eyepuppy which of the three would you keep?

For the longest time I carried Emp Healing and Max. After reading debates on the forums I decided to try out using just Max, It works like a charm . The only down side is that my Heal spell isn't as potent, but it's enough for most characters, aside from WF/Dwarf Barbs. I mostly use Mass Heals, and Max can be more efficient, and heals for more. I'm also a fan of Comet Fall, and Blade Barrier, which benifit from Max as well.

[DoctorWhofan]

Ok, thanks again everyone. This is VERY educational if not overwhelming.

My alt's are 15 Ranger, 8/7 Ranger/Rogue, 16 Rogue, 14 Fighter, 14 Wizard, 16 Sorcerer, and now 3 Cleric. Of all these I find the Cleric to be the most difficult to create. I had know idea before but now... Seems with so many options there more opporunities to shoot yourself in the foot.

So. It is very helpful to know that Max and Emp affect healing but not the Heal spell whereas Emp Healing does and cost 5SP less than regular Emp. Eyepuppy which of the three would you keep?

DoctorWhofan do you carry Empower Healing? I hear you on DEX and I've plenty of +6 items to drop on her to get DEX to 16. +3 DEX armor bonus is around the max for most heavy armors I think and I don't have Armored Agility Enhancements.

No. THe reason why is flexiblity. If I was a straight up Healbot then yes, take it. But as a Generalist, I try to get more bang forthe buck. I just added Max and yeah, it was nice, but it hurt in the spell points. Gotta remember to turn it off. But now I am doing more damage AND better healing.

A regular Full Plate is going to give you only a +1 DEX bonus. I think Mithril is +2 or 3. Unless you are striving for an evasion build, it's a waste.

Also seems that I don't need to worry too much about the Spell Dam/Crit Enhancements until later levels.


Not really, but for AP movement purposes, movethe healing one up.

Anyway, I went ahead and leveled to 3. Just been dropping Skill Points into Concentration, Heal, and UMD. The story so far:

Lvl. Feats
1. Toughness
1. Mental Toughness(can easily switch either out later but wanted all the boost I could for early on survivability)
3. Extend - I didn't take this earlier cause the difference between 1 minute and 2 wasn't big however 3 minutes to 6 is getting into useful range. esp. now I that have Resist Energy.

Wise. Taking any metamagic at first level (unless you are Wizzy, of course) is stupid. Extend is a good one. I still have it on my main, but I could trade it out by this time. But forthe low to mid levels, an awesome feat.

Only spent 4 out of 9AP's so far:
Cleric Divine Vitality I
Cleric Wisdom I(Got the bauble from Butcher's Path so now have an even 20)
Cleric Energy of the Zealot I(these early ones get used to meet the 'points spent' prereq's.

And they are useful. Mana anyone?

Suggestion for spending the 5AP's? Not alot available. 10% increase to heal spells or Wand/Scroll Efficiency. Actually I think Cleric Charisma I may be available as well.

CHA would be a safe bet. I did carry the wand/scroll efficany. I like it, but not a priority. The trick here is NOT to use consumables. Fat chance I know but still, why set yourself up? Clerics have some awesome Enhancements. Try differnet ones out. You can always respect them.

You all have giving me a lot to think about which truly was the goal. I now don't feel like I need invest every single point into the Heal category. A bit of balance may be in order.

Aranticus what do you consider a 'proper' cleric? I'd to hear some ideas and even if I don't implement all of them it's still food for thought. I'm getting the picture a good cleric can be more than a heal/dvbot.

Again, list you priorities. I heal first and kill with magic second. In the early levels, not so much uber killing but Level 11 BAM! It startsto get nasty. So what I do is I know I will I will get a healing spell, so for the other two, I pick one buffing and one offensive/crowd control. The exceptiopn is Heal. Take HEAL.

Almost any cleric build can multi-task, but it gets expensive. Setting it upi right first at Level 1 will save you some plat later on.

Thanks again everyone!

For the longest time I carried Emp Healing and Max. After reading debates on the forums I decided to try out using just Max, It works like a charm . The only down side is that my Heal spell isn't as potent, but it's enough for most characters, aside from WF/Dwarf Barbs. I mostly use Mass Heals, and Max can be more efficient, and heals for more. I'm also a fan of Comet Fall, and Blade Barrier, which benifit from Max as well.

Exactly. That's wy I took regular Empower instead of the healing one. Flexibilty.

[LeeRoy]

I think toughness is a great feat selection for a Healing orientated Cleric. Your focuses will be first and foremost on Wisdom, Constitution secondary, and Charisma behind those. Toughness will give you access to 40 additional Hps for when things go "pear shaped", like a delayed blast fireball to the noggin, in which case every little bit helps.

I like this feat set-up for a human(end game) Cleric;

1) Toughness
1) Extend
3) Empower Healing
6) Empower
9) Quicken
12) Maximize
15) Spell Penetration or Spell Foucs(Enhantment/Necromancy)
18*) Greater Spell Penetration or Greater Spell Focus(Enhantment/Necromancy)

Heighten is another good option.

* Not yet avaliable.

drop the spell pen take mental and improved mental toughness

[Inspire]

Taking both empower and empower heal is kind of a waste if you ask me. I would much rather have a MT than both.

I disagree,

1) Empower Healing aids the Heal spell and will most likley aid Heal, Mass aswell... Empower does not.
2) Clerics, if they so desire, can reduce the cost of Empower Healing through enhancements, not Empower.
3) Empower aids spells like Blade Barrier, Poison, Contagion, Holy Smite, etc... which are an offensive casting Clerics bread and butter.
4) At level 16 MT and IMT both grant 85sp each, an average Max/Emp/Extended/Quickened(?) Blade Barrier costs 80-95sp.

Automation runs around with 1605sp and does fine for himself, then again, I have a powergaming playstyle... it might not be for everyone.

[maddmatt70]

Taking both empower and empower heal is kind of a waste if you ask me. I would much rather have a MT than both.

I like your post a great deal in the warpriest thread but I disagree with this comment. I would take one or the other or both. Maximize for blade barrriors and I am very partial to empower healing right now so I have that on all my clerics. I have empower on my clerics that are more specced for blade barriors and I don't have it on my cleric that is more specced to do cc and insta kill spells..

[Deadz]

i think getting your strength up allows you to 1) still be a heal bot..
and 2) hit things with meele.. Important in my opinion, but i guess not if all you do is full grouping.

[~Quozl]

OMG, you guys are killing me! I'm now even more confused than ever...

K, so on a different topic, what Enhancements will affect Blade Barrier and other damage spells(what are the other damage spells? Cometfall?)

Thanks.

[DoctorWhofan]

OMG, you guys are killing me! I'm now even more confused than ever...

K, so on a different topic, what Enhancements will affect Blade Barrier and other damage spells(what are the other damage spells? Cometfall?)

Thanks.

THese are all opinions, and most are valid, even if I don't like it.

See if this helps:

IF you want to build a cleric that is a healer taking the following will help you:

Empower Heal
Maximise
Mental Toughtness
Improved Mental Toughness

Make sure you have a 17-18 in WIS when you start out.

enhancements: healing crit ones, and WIS ones, and energy of the Zealot, empower heal ones

Take WIS when leveling.

IF you want to make a cleric that heals and DVs, the following will help:

Empower Heal,
Maximise,
Mental Toughness
Improved Mental Toughness
Extra Turning

WIS at 17-18, CHA from 13-15

enhancements: CHA and WIS ones, crit heal ones, energy of the Zealot ones, extra turning ones, empower heal ones, and of course DV.

Take WIS when leveling


IF you want to make a cleric that is a combat caster, the following will help:

Maximise
Extend
Quicken
Empower
Spell Penetration
Mental Toughness
Improved Mental Toughness
Greater Spell Penetration
Possible: SPell focus Necromacy, toughness

WIS is maxed out, and CON is pretty high.

also AC may be important, depending on build

Enhancements: all the crit ones, energy of the zealot, spell pen, WIS ones.

WIS when you level.


IF you want to build a Battlecleric, the following may help:

Extend
Quicken
toughness
weapon focus
TWF
Tower shield Prof.
toughness
-other weapon feats if needed

-Also a level or two of fighter does free up some feats slots.

WIS and STR should be about equal at start, maybe STR being more.

Enhancements: racial toughness, WIS, (if any kind of CHA) Divine Might, heal crit ones (to make the most of your mana). IF multiclass and can get first tier STR take it, Human Veristality should be STR.

When leveling, take STR vice WIS.


Mixing several of them is easy. To answer your question:

MAXIMISE works on all healing spells EXCEPT HEAL (and Mass heal when it comes out) and also works on combat spells, such as blade barrier.
EMPOWER doesn't work on any healing spells, but works on all combat spells.
EMPOWER HEALING works on all healing spells.
EXTEND works on time related spells, such as blade barrier. It also works on buffs as you may know.
QUICKEN works on all spells, and keeps you from being interrupted.

To be flexible, take Maximise. You will get the most bang for your buck.

[~Quozl]

Thanks again for the insightful(as always) information DoctorWhoFan.

It is a little overwhelming but ALL appreciated! I hope no one here thinks I'm anything but thankful for all the helpful replies. If anything it's opened my eyes to what most here already know - the true versatility of the Cleric class.

Nels