Jaerlach, Defender of Siberys

[AylinIsAwesome]

I don't even bother trying, and no, the stance hate doesn't work.

Keep in mind that there's no paladin build that isn't gimping itself at the rest of DDO that is intimidating Lailat, either: you'd need to spend 4-5 feat slots on intimidate feats and opening up the Deneith dragonmark line. As an 18/2, my top intimidate was around 62 or so before feats. Epic Lailat is 79. It simply doesn't happen without feats, full ranks of enhancements, and with the pre-based enhancements that fighters get. No paladin is intimilocking Lailat unless that's all he can do.

I would prefer to be useful. Outside of Lailat, Intimidate isn't required for any tanking task and is often inferior to threat-based tanking for a variety of reasons (like not needing to leave your highest dps on Horoth while killing Suulomades, and having to worry about healing it during every blasphemy).

Tanking is a niche skill in DDO. If its the focus of your character's existence and it doesn't do other things well, you have a bad character.

Fair enough.

My tank has only spent two feats on Intim (the two that Fighter gives me, really) and only a single enhancement, and will reach 70 I believe when fully buffed up.

I especially agree with your last statement.

Not sure dropping the Fighter levels for me would be the best option though, as I doubt I'd have the AP to pick up DS3 (and Extra Smite 4) since I'm Warforged (and will buy Healer's Friend and Power Attack enhancements). Also I do like having the option to hit intim if I lose aggro for some reason, but I do try to hold aggro through Hate as well.


Oh yeah, one important question: how much content do you need to use CE for? The maximum AC difference between my tank and yours is 3 (-2 DEX mod, no Dodge feat) so I figure if you rarely have to use it, I could just throw it on for a few situations and use Power Attack the rest of the time.

[Junts]

Fair enough.

My tank has only spent two feats on Intim (the two that Fighter gives me, really) and only a single enhancement, and will reach 70 I believe when fully buffed up.

I especially agree with your last statement.

Not sure dropping the Fighter levels for me would be the best option though, as I doubt I'd have the AP to pick up DS3 (and Extra Smite 4) since I'm Warforged (and will buy Healer's Friend and Power Attack enhancements). Also I do like having the option to hit intim if I lose aggro for some reason, but I do try to hold aggro through Hate as well.


Oh yeah, one important question: how much content do you need to use CE for? The maximum AC difference between my tank and yours is 3 (-2 DEX mod, no Dodge feat) so I figure if you rarely have to use it, I could just throw it on for a few situations and use Power Attack the rest of the time.

I go out of my way to avoid using CE whenever possible, but ther eare probably times I should use it I dont. Keep in mind that I'm rarely in ac mode outside of tanking some kind of boss fight, as there's just no reason not to be whacking the mass held **** with a 2hander.

[AylinIsAwesome]

I go out of my way to avoid using CE whenever possible, but ther eare probably times I should use it I dont. Keep in mind that I'm rarely in ac mode outside of tanking some kind of boss fight, as there's just no reason not to be whacking the mass held **** with a 2hander.

Good point.

But an AC of 83-85 would be fine for most raids/epics?

[drwranck]

would it be possible to use this Epic Bracers of Demon's Consort, sloted with a +2 insight bonus to AC to replace the Chaosgarde? or the sloted bonus wont stack with AC insight bonus from GS weapon?

Epic Bracers of Demon's Consort - (Bracers) Demonic Curse, Demonic Shield, Demonic Retribution, Intimidate +15, Empty Colorless Augment Slot, Empty Yellow Augment Slot

[ArtosKincaid]

Short answer:
No, they don't stack.

Long answer:
Bonuses of the same type do not stack, with the exceptions of dodge and exceptional bonuses of different magnitudes.

[Halaryel]

Well thank you for this nice build junts.
You gave me a lot of answer to question i am asking myself about intimi and paladin.
I was about to go 18paladin/2warrior, but your insight help me keep faith about the holy road.

I have a character i am going to TR to paladin in next TR.
This will be a Legend build (36) points, i have acces to Warrior and Rogue Past life.
( i was willing to go completionist, but even if i am fast to level up, i prefer use my time for real life and go straight paladin).

1) Dexterity
I will probably follow your build and use my 3rd level feat for Warrior Past life instead of dodge (i get +2intimi, -1dex on armor/shield penalty and a so-so clicky(+4 to hit for 1 minute)).

***Will i have enough dex without crippling myself to support another +1maxdex ? what starting dex do you recommand with 36 point build and +2tomes? (i am vip and got some points to spend for later reincarnation when grabbing better tomes).

2) Bastard sword
i was wondering about going bastard sword instead of kopesh. I only have 2 minI kopesh, 2vorpal, 2chaosblade; so nothing wasted. and i am saving my larges for at least 2 or 3 month now (3 level 20 chars), and 4m+ plat.

My logic is that you would go defense against bosses (or very large horde of monsters...), which usually have 50% fort or more. at this points bastard have a way better base damage, and even not feated, you add a lil extra from the base damage. Since you have to stand still when tanking to make the boss more available for others, then you will have your glancing...which lead me to that "even if you didnt twitch, pally capstone is 100% proc on gbs abnd probably makes featless gbs out-damage feated ones with no capstone." So bastard sound like a really good weapon actually. Even on very large horde of monsters, your intimi is enough to get them, then you would dps(thus aggro) a lot more with bastard on multiple target then kopesh. I don't see in your build any situation where kopesh beat bastard. even if the group is blasting stuff with vorpal (low dps) you still able to ADD aggro to a pack on top of the initial intimi. oh and there is a COOL factor. bastard sword are really beautifull, not to mention thoose lovely 2d8 base damage bastards available (got a least one in my head).

*****I'd appreciate that you enlight me! is that a wise choice for a nearly stuff virgin like me or is there any kopesh i may feel i am missing?

3) leveling up
As a leveling up plan (which isn't really important but still as Legend build...). I plan to go hunter of the dead in early levels, i tend to spend quite some time in delera, necropolis and orchard (etc; it is really frustrating to run around with your supermassivedps kopesh build but there is only undeads for so many levels hehe) and this pre will give good boost in healing amp early which is usefull in any situation and save my SP, while i don't require any boost in HIT/DMG/HP/AC until i hit stronger content.

As soon as i reach a point where my AC is a problem and i start going in parties (i guessing after necro4) i'll switch to DoS.

***Do you recommand going DoS while leveling up? aint HotD more suited until after necro4 ? i only recall GH having high hit/dmg monsters (troll/giant). i will only spend a level here, and i don't think i have the gear to cap out AC (no chattering ring, etc).

4) itemisation
could you add a recommanded pre-epic gear?

Here my current gear for lv13+, and i need to fit in : MinII accesory and Conc Opp accessory
Eyes: Tharnes => conc opp
Head: Minos => MinII
Neck: Torc (still on work...)
Cloak: XP cloack (switch out/back cloack for xp kick in is a feat i don't have, legend are really XP *****s)
Belt: STR (then at 18 Belt of the Defenders of Siberys)
Hands: Spectral Gloves
Boots: Striding 30%, boots of anchoring (Kundarak Delving Boots,Firestorm Greaves)
Bracers: Chaosgarde (dodge +2)
Ring1: CON (then STR+6 at 18 then defender?^^)
Ring2: probably Greater false life ring ( i need: Chattering ring (dodge +3))
Trinket: Bloodstone

(This show why i don't really need DoS to bump up a meaningless AC )

my first idea is to make minII helmet and conc opp goggle and another duplicata conc opp cape later(probably when i reach shroud).
i'm aware it doesn't stack, but i would go xp cape+conc opp goggle solo; and tharne+conc opp cape in group/raid.
Then when i get my hand on epic hunter bracer, it will free my eye slot to make minII eyes.
then when i get my hand on epic helmet, its will be free to put it here (thus probably using big top for cool effect or red fen helmet).

**** is my gear plan accurate? (not considering update 6 gear yet, which i'll get for level 7->13 filler).


5) conclusion

thank you for a great build and great insight of the paladin.
thank you again for giving me faith about pure paladin.

[sephiroth1084]

1) Dexterity
I will probably follow your build and use my 3rd level feat for Warrior Past life instead of dodge (i get +2intimi, -1dex on armor/shield penalty and a so-so clicky(+4 to hit for 1 minute)).

***Will i have enough dex without crippling myself to support another +1maxdex ? what starting dex do you recommand with 36 point build and +2tomes? (i am vip and got some points to spend for later reincarnation when grabbing better tomes).

This is basically what I'm doing: going TWF over THF, started with a 15 Dex, but am going to LR to a 14 Dex at lvl 11 when I can use my +3 Dex tome, and will have to respec a couple feats after to get TWF and ITWF in at 1 and 6. 14 Dex +5 item (spectrals) +3 tome = 22 (+6). Epic Vambrace w/ +2 max Dex and the Fighter PL and DoS III results in a max Dex of 1 +2 +1 +2 = 6=perfect fit! If you don't have the +3 tome... 15 +2 tome +5 spectrals = 22.

2) Bastard sword
i was wondering about going bastard sword instead of kopesh. I only have 2 minI kopesh, 2vorpal, 2chaosblade; so nothing wasted. and i am saving my larges for at least 2 or 3 month now (3 level 20 chars), and 4m+ plat.

My logic is that you would go defense against bosses (or very large horde of monsters...), which usually have 50% fort or more. at this points bastard have a way better base damage, and even not feated, you add a lil extra from the base damage. Since you have to stand still when tanking to make the boss more available for others, then you will have your glancing...which lead me to that "even if you didnt twitch, pally capstone is 100% proc on gbs abnd probably makes featless gbs out-damage feated ones with no capstone." So bastard sound like a really good weapon actually. Even on very large horde of monsters, your intimi is enough to get them, then you would dps(thus aggro) a lot more with bastard on multiple target then kopesh. I don't see in your build any situation where kopesh beat bastard. even if the group is blasting stuff with vorpal (low dps) you still able to ADD aggro to a pack on top of the initial intimi. oh and there is a COOL factor. bastard sword are really beautifull, not to mention thoose lovely 2d8 base damage bastards available (got a least one in my head).

*****I'd appreciate that you enlight me! is that a wise choice for a nearly stuff virgin like me or is there any kopesh i may feel i am missing?

Khopesh is still more DPS vs. single targets. I'd say, if you go THF for DPS, go with bastard swords (maybe), whereas if you go TWF stay khopesh. I'm sure Junts would argue for going BS regardless. In my case, I didn't have room for all the feats I wanted, so I went with scimitars.

3) leveling up
As a leveling up plan (which isn't really important but still as Legend build...). I plan to go hunter of the dead in early levels, i tend to spend quite some time in delera, necropolis and orchard (etc; it is really frustrating to run around with your supermassivedps kopesh build but there is only undeads for so many levels hehe) and this pre will give good boost in healing amp early which is usefull in any situation and save my SP, while i don't require any boost in HIT/DMG/HP/AC until i hit stronger content.

As soon as i reach a point where my AC is a problem and i start going in parties (i guessing after necro4) i'll switch to DoS.

I've been trying out HotD as well for a bit. My plan is to go HotD until 12 probably, and then switch to DoS--the free Lesser Restores and healing amp are very useful while leveling, and the defensive stance isn't really necessary early on. KotC might be worthwhile also, since it currently works on undead (lots of those in the early/mid game).

4) itemisation
could you add a recommanded pre-epic gear?

Here my current gear for lv13+, and i need to fit in : MinII accesory and Conc Opp accessory
Eyes: Tharnes => conc opp If you have aggro, Tharnes won't do you much good. Also, you wouldn't want to drop your Wis item often, as you'll need it for casting spells (Zeal and Divine Favor)
Head: Minos => MinII I did this on my tank's first life, and regretted it: I suggest making your Min II as a cloak. If you want the XP bonus from the Mantle, just equip it right before you complete a quest (don't need to wear it the whole time). Use this spot for Minos (+20 HP), Superior Devotion IV (when healing is needed) or Intimidate +15 when that's what you need.
Neck: Torc (still on work...) This could be a swap spot with things like the Silver Flame Talisman.
Cloak: XP cloack (switch out/back cloack for xp kick in is a feat i don't have, legend are really XP *****s) Suggest Min II.
Belt: STR (then at 18 Belt of the Defenders of Siberys)
Hands: Spectral Gloves
Boots: Striding 30%, boots of anchoring (Kundarak Delving Boots,Firestorm Greaves)
Bracers: Chaosgarde (dodge +2)
Ring1: CON (then STR+6 at 18 then defender?^^)
Ring2: probably Greater false life ring ( i need: Chattering ring (dodge +3))
Trinket: Bloodstone

The rest of the gear looks solid. Also keep an eye out for the Claw set from the Red Fens: probably worth equipping any time you don't need AC and to-hit bonus.

[Halaryel]

Well i won't take either TWF or THF line and take thoose feats :
1: Toughness
H: Bastard sword
3: Past life warrior
6: Power Attack
9: Improved crit: slash
12: Combat Expertise
15: Maximize Spell
18: Quicken Spell

so switch from falchion to S&B depending on situation.

i've read many thread that show unfeated S&B bastard beat S&B kopesh especialy since you don't move when tanking. Its even more true on multiple target. so on a single target you have pretty much same aggro, and on sub target you build aggro. with a smart group that focus stuff (lets say for example VoD Orthons). that can be a great help (i guess i will be dps/Off tank untill i get the gear). this even more true when you consider 50% or more fort bosses.

i'm working on getting my 20th completions raids (shroud/adq mainly), still looking for levik and torc and cleanser.
Also going to pay a visit to redfen, i plan to use redfen gear (level 7) 3 set interest me.
as i don't have chatring i will be using +4wisdom ring (red fen) and +2tome with base 8 i will be able to cast level 4 spells.
Sup ardor IV potions are all i need for the healing, but indeed if i can use a devotion item from time to time it can be nice too

About the greensteel, until i get bracer i will still need to be able to have tharne and conc opp and minII equiped, for raid epic situation where i want to be hit (glancing and cleave) by the boss but not tanking or on stunned/hold monsters since its time consuming to switch gear on the fly (time=dps). also swithcing out a HP item, remove that HP, i would loose 45Hp each time...

Since 5% (200K+) is about 10hour of gameplay while a dual shard is over 30H, i will probably go for straight conc opp cape, as i can still switch it out before last fight if short enough and get the full exp. still use a minII helmet/tharne until i get epic bracers. and make a minII goggle for when i raid tank since i don't need tharne but the +20hp get handy. only use i have for it. (3 on 3rd life).

[sephiroth1084]

Everything I've read has indicated that Khopesh is still ahead of bastard swords in most situations. Since paladins gain a lot from crits, I'm pretty sure that the bigger multiplier is more significant than the benefits of BS, especially without the feats--the glancing blows damage is pretty minuscule without feats (pick up a BS before you TR and try it out).

[Halaryel]

even if you didnt twitch, pally capstone is 100% proc on gbs abnd probably makes featless gbs out-damage feated ones with no capstone.

that quote make me confuse..

and that topic tend to go toward S&B bastard > S&B kopesh
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=270262

oh and +1rep for your kind answers. i guess we are all waiting for server to get back up... 3more hour to wait (at the very least. . .)

edit: oh and you totaly got me, i will craft minII goggle, and use normal bracers of the hunter. when i'm in a dps situation i will use tharne. i think i can live with +2sneak instead of +5sneak while leveling. with some luck, maybe i'll be able to get the epic material before i TR, who know?... but still i need to be able to go tharne/conc opp cape/minos/levik bracer when going all out dps. i never used HP item so far on any of my level 20 toons, so i am pretty sure ill be safe from death doing so.

thanks you so much i feel really better now, i'm going to work with the planner and check the crafting.

[sephiroth1084]

So, Junts, my TR'ed tank has finally gotten to lvl 11, put on his Torc and Concordant Opp. goggles, and is now a total badass! It may be derived from the old version of Jaer, with the fighter splash, and may have different DPS built in with scimitars + (at this point) ITWF, but the idea of the self-healing, mana-regenerating tank is derived solely from you (at least in my case).

Thank you!



Yeah, that's a lvl 11 solo run through Into the Deep on hard, including the hezrou optional.

[psymun]

Junts:

In the original post...

How do you get +6 to your AC while wearing Epic Red Dragonplate Armor?

It has a max dex of 2...

[ArtosKincaid]

Junts:

In the original post...

How do you get +6 to your AC while wearing Epic Red Dragonplate Armor?

It has a max dex of 2...

Defender of Siberys gives you +2 max dex bonus to AC, and you slot the armor itself with +2 Max Dex bonus in the blue slot.

[psymun]

Next question... Sandstorm Goggles... I love using them for the True Seeing and Blindness immunity. I use my Paladin to Solo a lot... So what do I use for True Seeing? UMD scroll it? And I'm guessing when you get blinded you just drink a potion right?

[Halaryel]

any info about bastard sword.

this topic tend to say bastard beat kopesh
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=270262

i'm really looking for junts to answer and people that are actively hate tanking at level 20+

i am 1month till i this final TR.

[Junts]

I've got no interest to get into breaking down the math in detail, but I'll say that Khopesh, imo, still has most everything going for it, including:

1: 3x crits are important with the profusion of autocrit stuff
2: getting the glancing blows to be worthwhile requires thf feats, which I will not take
3: I've already got Khopeshes, so I'm not recrafting
4: his math has a lot of flaws that don't account for things which are beneficial to Khopesh (eg bursts, blasts, etc)

[sephiroth1084]

So what do I use for True Seeing? UMD scroll it? And I'm guessing when you get blinded you just drink a potion right?

That's what I do.

[Halaryel]

Thank you junts for your input. seems valid points.

I've played a friend tank (level 12) which is bastard sword, i am not really impressed by the numbers,
base is same, crit are weaks, and glancing not noticable, i really have the feeling that without THF line its useless (My friend tank is using cleave/greater cleave until he can get all 3 THF feats,and its really nice for holding a pack of monster that can not be intimidated, also work while blocking).

S&B hate tanking will probably be reserved to though boss, and i don't expect baby glancing blow (even with capstone procing 100%) to be a RELIABLE source of hate. Only thing that may favor bastard glancing is boss having 50%+fort.

When level 20 i will try unfeated bastard sword with capstone (it is only -4hit) and check my output. The only reason i may respec to bastard in the future is if i can tank top end stuff without +4insight armor and switch from profeciency: Kopesh to mark of sentinel and use epic chimera fang. Chimera fang have a really nice damage output (2D10+6 base), it sort of LitII+MinII bastard sword (with maiming as bonus).


thanks Junts for great build, really impressive insight of the game.

[Junts]

Thank you junts for your input. seems valid points.

I've played a friend tank (level 12) which is bastard sword, i am not really impressed by the numbers,
base is same, crit are weaks, and glancing not noticable, i really have the feeling that without THF line its useless (My friend tank is using cleave/greater cleave until he can get all 3 THF feats,and its really nice for holding a pack of monster that can not be intimidated, also work while blocking).

S&B hate tanking will probably be reserved to though boss, and i don't expect baby glancing blow (even with capstone procing 100%) to be a RELIABLE source of hate. Only thing that may favor bastard glancing is boss having 50%+fort.

When level 20 i will try unfeated bastard sword with capstone (it is only -4hit) and check my output. The only reason i may respec to bastard in the future is if i can tank top end stuff without +4insight armor and switch from profeciency: Kopesh to mark of sentinel and use epic chimera fang. Chimera fang have a really nice damage output (2D10+6 base), it sort of LitII+MinII bastard sword (with maiming as bonus).


thanks Junts for great build, really impressive insight of the game.

You need to have the whole sentinel mark line to gain all the benefits from the epic chimaera's fang; its not a free proficiency, insight 4 weapon ulness you have greater mark of sentinel.

If you do, then you probably are not a pure paladin and do not get the capstone.

[Halaryel]

from my understanding chimera give bonus depending on which mark you get (cumulative) :
- least : proficiency
- lesser : +4 insight to AC and save
- greater : +50% insight fortification

thats why i say, that if i don't require +4insight to AC, and therefore only 1 feat into least mark, then i may consider switch from prof to least mark of sentinel. because the 2D10+6+maiming+Shocking Burst+Lightning Strike+silver+good+destruction is very interesting, even on a X2 weapon.

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/5913/sfang.jpg <= (from static loot thread)