Review of TWF relative DPS

[Thanimal]

grrr.. I hate missing all the little details..I'm going to blame it on the weak coffee im drinking today.

Yeah.. still had str surge in. Without it you drop to 293.9 (pre haste boost). Honestly though, if I was playing a monster build I would seriously consider putting on the tharnes set, to get some agro mitigation (so I could get the sneak attack more frequently). I'll update the post a little later.

heheh, I'm a pesky mosquito! Now I think you've just barely short-changed me because the Defender stance does offer +2 STR (actually +3 at level 20 although that last point doesn't change anything). While this doesn't matter *much*, every point of DPS counts as 1.7 points of hate, so the little stuff does matter a little.

It also looks to me like there's a bug in the spreadsheet. I see STR modifiers of 19 and 8, which I don't think is possible. Should be 16 and 8 (to become 17 and 8), right? So unfortunately, it looks like the result for favored-enemy DPS is going to go down a little after these fixes.

[gfunk]

It also looks to me like there's a bug in the spreadsheet. I see STR modifiers of 19 and 8, which I don't think is possible. Should be 16 and 8 (to become 17 and 8), right? So unfortunately, it looks like the result for favored-enemy DPS is going to go down a little after these fixes.

not a bug per se.. I had deleted that cell in a previous calc and manually entered it.. but then forgot that I had done so when I started changing numbers... Anyways, I sent you a version that should work for you.

[Elurian]

Just coming back after a year and a half away, and this was extremely helpful - thanks! Your comments re: complexity of calculating to-hit modifiers and ACs (especially in light of boosts in an attack sequence that may or may not be truncated) are dead on. It might make a pretty substantial difference for some of the builds that really give up attack bonus for raw DPS, but there are too many scenarios to try to calc them all - you'd take up all the forum's storage space.

That said, I suspect many players are interested in it not for a purely quantitative comparison across all builds, but for the ability to evaluate very specific circumstances (what's the impact of a given clicky or spell against a given target, or which of their 3 DPS builds should they take into a specific encounter).

Conceptually, it might be helpful to post a discount based on *changes* in the probability of hitting, rather than trying to establish those parameters. I.e., if you go from hitting on 2s to hitting on 3s, you'll do 94.74% of the standard DPS, and if you need 5s, you'll do 84.2% of the listed amount if you're only getting 1 swing off.

Somebody who's stayed in the loop on what the attack bonuses are in the sequence could also blend those to make a single chart that would always be useful for stand and deliver, and another that would always be useful for strafe fighting. Is your chart discounting to 95% to reflect misses on 1s already? (Since it's static, it doesn't matter unless you impose miss chances).

[gfunk]

Just coming back after a year and a half away, and this was extremely helpful - thanks! Your comments re: complexity of calculating to-hit modifiers and ACs (especially in light of boosts in an attack sequence that may or may not be truncated) are dead on. It might make a pretty substantial difference for some of the builds that really give up attack bonus for raw DPS, but there are too many scenarios to try to calc them all - you'd take up all the forum's storage space.

That said, I suspect many players are interested in it not for a purely quantitative comparison across all builds, but for the ability to evaluate very specific circumstances (what's the impact of a given clicky or spell against a given target, or which of their 3 DPS builds should they take into a specific encounter).

Conceptually, it might be helpful to post a discount based on *changes* in the probability of hitting, rather than trying to establish those parameters. I.e., if you go from hitting on 2s to hitting on 3s, you'll do 94.74% of the standard DPS, and if you need 5s, you'll do 84.2% of the listed amount if you're only getting 1 swing off.

Somebody who's stayed in the loop on what the attack bonuses are in the sequence could also blend those to make a single chart that would always be useful for stand and deliver, and another that would always be useful for strafe fighting. Is your chart discounting to 95% to reflect misses on 1s already? (Since it's static, it doesn't matter unless you impose miss chances).

thx for your interest in this thread.

A % discount to compensate for different attack bonuses may be a good way to do things... of course, then I would have to go and figure out the attack bonuses for everyone (something I would like to get to eventually).

And yes, the calculations include misses on 1's, which is why you see things like: numbers for tharnes showing up at 7.6 instead of 8.

[Djeserit]

I too am curious about the DPS of my rogue19/mnk1 with GTWF, GEOB handwraps, tharnes, and one of those ring-thingies. My sense is that it's better than Khopeshes, but it's hard to tell. Also I have a WF rogue 17/pal2/mnk1 in progress and I wonder how he will stack up. I guess the main unknowable is what those rings will do.


Are you giving halfling rogues 18 base STR?

[Borror0]

Just coming back after a year and a half away, and this was extremely helpful - thanks!

Oh my, welcome back!

[Elurian]

Thanks, Borror0 - good to be back. The wiki's been helpful too, btw!

[krud]

Ran thru NeatoMan's numbers using your criteria.

human rogue12/fighter6/paladin2 acrobat2-kensai1
avg dps = 367.2 scimitars, sneak
avg dps = 430.7 scimitars, sneak, haste boost 20%

relevant stats: base str16, sneak att training III, kensai scim mastery I.

[keltoi]

very detailed and in depth study of the subject.thank you fortaking the time to research and post all of this helphul info : )

[lexinator]

very detailed and in depth study of the subject.thank you fortaking the time to research and post all of this helphul info : )

This is now old info and no longer applies.

You should not base your arguments on this old post, unless it gets updated to take last patch into account.

At this time THF>TWF, at least when comaring a Barbarian and Ranger.

[gfunk]

This is now old info and no longer applies.

You should not base your arguments on this old post, unless it gets updated to take last patch into account.

At this time THF>TWF, at least when comaring a Barbarian and Ranger.

yo lex, this thread has nothing to do with THF, just fyi.

And yeah, it is out of date because of the elimination of the 5th animation, and subsequent changes to GTWF (losing the 2nd attack). This puts us back to the point where it is likely better to move while attacking(twitch), as two weapon fighters will be missing out on an attack (unless they are a ranger). There also seems to be little advantage to having tempest III atm, as a person could just break their attack chain after the first couple of animations to get the same result. Of course, we need to see some more work regarding the new attack chain durations before there can be a definitive answer.

In the meantime, there will be fairly minimal change in the relative position of the TWF builds (with respect to each other).

[maddmatt70]

And yeah, it is out of date because of the elimination of the 5th animation, and subsequent changes to GTWF (losing the 2nd attack). This puts us back to the point where it is likely better to move while attacking(twitch), as two weapon fighters will be missing out on an attack (unless they are a ranger). There also seems to be little advantage to having tempest III atm, as a person could just break their attack chain after the first couple of animations to get the same result. Of course, we need to see some more work regarding the new attack chain durations before there can be a definitive answer.

In the meantime, there will be fairly minimal change in the relative position of the TWF builds (with respect to each other).

Hey yo GFunk this has always been a good thread. I am curious what the numbers look like now. It is funny because yesterday tempest 3 was the bomb now its well somebody should crank out the numbers and figure out what is what now.

[DnD3]

I'm thinking of rolling a melee class, I know this chart is outdated and TWF got nerfed(so wait, are TWF Rangers better now than TWF fighters on the dps department?) , but are 2handed on top in dps by much right now? How where the two compared before anyways?

[Valezra]

The last two builds on the list (both over 600 DPS) appear to have been calculated incorrectly. In the "Tasmanian Devil" thread you have added all the sneak attack damage into the base damage before crit multipliers and such. This will drastically increase the DPS beyond the build's actual capabilities. I'd be shocked if the Rogue/mix build surpasses the pure Khopesh Rogue.

Val

[Valezra]

I will be posting my new build that I will be leveling up next for you to add to your chart if you like. It does 593 DPS while boosted.

[Gunga]

Make sure it has a catchy name.

Valtrexor is a good one.

[Calogrenant]

Hey man, thanks a ton for the great effort put in here!

Now, I did try to go through all the pages in the thread, didn't read all of them thoroughly, so please let me know if I missed the following things, and if I didn't, it'd be great if you could do the math about them.

- Greensteel Bastard Swords, warforged, fighter 12 / ranger 6 / rogue 2
- Same with Greensteel Khopeshes

- Warforged with a Greatsword, Kensai III
- Dwarf with a Greataxe, Kensai III.

Basically, not going after the analysis on a particular build, just wanting to see if it is true indeed that GS BS's > GS Khops, and how good two handed weapons are in comparison with dual wieldables.

Thanks a lot in advance!

[osirisisis]

any word on epic sword of shadows whf ken or berserker. Anyone got a link on that?
great job gfunk Use your link all the time... got it nice a bookmarked.